kane

I just saw a guy on TV (MSNBC I think) talking about the stimulus bill and the bailouts. He was making the argument for them. He made some good points and some I didn't agree with. I happen to think a stimulus bill is a good thing, but I think the one we got is very flawed and wasteful. So here is a theoretical example of what easily could have happened without a bailout or stimulus.

AIG fails and it takes with it several big Wall Street banks. This starts a house of cards collapsing and somewhere in the 60-65% of all the banks in the nation either go under or are in severe trouble.

The credit markets lock up.

GM and Chrysler collapse and take with them all the companies that supply and work with/for them.

Many companies that rely on short term lines of credit are now no longer able to get them so they either cut way back or close down.

Unemployment jumps to somewhere around 30%. This causes people to freak out so they start making runs on their banks. This run on deposits helps bring down another 5-10% of the banks that were doing okay, but are now in deep trouble because people are shitting their collective pants and withdrawing everything they have.

With an unemployment rate that high more and more states go the way that California is now and even worse. With fewer people working and more people needing unemployment and food stamps and any form of help they can get the states have a huge drain put on them, but they have a greatly reduced income because of the lack of income tax revenues.

Foreclosure shoots through the roof bringing the already hurting housing market to its knees. If you have a job and are in good shape on your mortgage and plan to live in your house another 10-15 years, you have no worries. If you were planning on selling it good luck, the value of it has fallen through the floor and chances are you are actually upside down and owe more than it is worth. People will then challenge their property tax bills which will then even further reduce income for the states.

Companies nationwide continue to cut jobs because consumer spending is bottoming out. Consumer spending accounts for around 75-80% of our economy. When those people are either unemployed or worried sick about their jobs they will stop spending and will just by the things they need to survive. This causes unemployment to rise again an could further harm the economy.

We all sit around wondering how long it will take to get out of this. It might only last a couple of years. It may last much much longer.

The good news is there was no stimulus bill and no bailouts so we did save some money.

If this happened. Would you be more satisfied with Obama then you are today?

I'm not endorsing the stimulus as it sits nor do I think every bailout was a good one. I'm not endorsing Obama's actions. I'm just asking a question. If Obama put his foot down and gave nothing out and this occurred would you be happier?

Cyandin

That was a very well written and non-partisan explication. Good job!

Doctor Dre

The monetary system is corrupted at the root. Wether the stimulus is good or not is irrelevant if you want to fix the system long term.

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IllTestYourGirls

Your question is flawed. Its not about being "happy" it is about doing what is right. It is not right for the federal government to do a massive power grab on scare tactics. And that is exactly what Bush and Obama have done.

We are now fascist. Are YOU "happy" being fascist? With walmart GE Bank of America and the like telling you what to do, telling you how much you can make, telling you what to buy and how much you can buy?

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IllTestYourGirls

No one cares they just want "to be happy"

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kane

The question is what it is. The question is very simple. If there were no bailouts and there were no stimulus and the scenario I laid out occured would you be more happy than you are right now? Maybe we would be less "fascist" maybe not. But would you be happier?

Walmart doesn't tell me shit. I haven't been inside a Walmart in about 9 months. I maybe have spent a total of $500 in my life at Walmart. I don't see how Walmart has any control over my life.

GE and Bank of America telling me what to do? WTF? Exactly how are they telling me what to do? How are they telling me how much I can make? How are they telling me what to buy and how much to buy?

IllTestYourGirls

Its not my fault you dont understand. Who the fuck do you think have been lobbying for all this shit?

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kane

I'm not talking about fixing the whole system. I am talking simply about the stimulus and bailouts.

My point is this. I see a lot of people on these boards and on TV and that I talk to who are all over Obama for what he has done. I have always said he was in an impossible situation. There was no way for him to do any one thing that would make everyone happy. So he did what he thought was correct. I think some of what he has done is good and I think some of what he has done is bad. The point is for those who say he has done the wrong thing and they wan no bailouts and simply a free market crash and burn and recovery, if they got what they wanted and it wasn't pretty would the be happy with that?

LiveDose

I think it would have been interesting to watch the markets and monetary systems correct themselves. Unfortunately it's a totally corrupt system we live with.

As far as the bailouts it is not shocking how poorly the funds are being distributed or are planned to be. Money for Acorn? A fucking joke. Bailouts for GM and then they declare bankrupcy shortly there after. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. The list of complete bullshit could go on and on...

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kane

I understand that big companies lobby. They want influence. They want laws passed that help them out and favor them. They want a say in how laws are made. I know that.

Still, please explain to me how the lobbying efforts of these companies tell me what to buy and how much to buy and what to do with my life? How do they decide how much money I get to make?

IllTestYourGirls

we have no free market so the free market could not crash. the controlled market crashed.

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IllTestYourGirls

Taxation = how much money you can make
1000 agencies from the epa to the fda tell you what you can buy
Fbi, aft = things you can buy/do
It is pretty simple really.

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IllTestYourGirls

FED = how much you can borrow/how much your money is worth/what you can buy

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tony286

if that happened I think people cant imagine the ramifications.You can see by the posts here, they have no idea on how fucked up it would truly be and chances they would be out on the street with all the other people. Having money in the bank doesn't matter if it collapses but hey the government wasn't involved so its all good. lol its all too funny.

IllTestYourGirls

Well you claimed that GM would not go bankrupt and if they did 100000000 of jobs would end. Well what is happening now even with the bail out?

Well you claimed without the bailout credit would not flow and people would lose their jobs. Well what is happening right now?

So please tell me how you were right? Beside the false argument "well if we didnt it would be worse". Or Obamas bullshit line of "jobs saved".

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TheDoc

What scare tactics did he use? Did he force his ideas on the people to bend to or he would some how suppress them?

You may want to look up the definition of fascist.

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LiveDose

Let's meet back here in 20 years and see what the ramifications are from borrowing all this money from China were. In a free market strong and stable companies would have made moves to do naturally what the government is doing artificially.

The difference in posts in this thread is you believe government is the answer and some of us believe the free market and industry are the answer. You have absolutely no idea what would have happened without the government meddling. There is no way to know.

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LiveDose

BTW before this thread gets crazy Tony I am not going blow to blow tonight. I am working and on the phone for the next few hours. But you know where I stand and I know where you stand from past exchanges... fyi.

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kane

Wrong. Taxes = how much of the money I make I get to keep. If I am able there is no law stopping me from making a million dollars, I will just have to pay taxes on it. I will agree that taxes are too high though.

So there should be no regulation on anything? Just close it all down and let them sell you toys with lead paint that poisons your kids. Let them sell you drugs that are not tested and will kill you. Let them put food they know is tainted and spoiled in the markets?

Are you advocating anarchy? Should we be a lawless society?

tony286

Who do you think paid for the iraq war? lowering taxes and going to war doesnt work. If it wasnt for government funding there would be no fucking internet for gods sake. lol

tony286

They really dont understand what it was like before government regulation came in. They should read the jungle, which made Teddy Roosevelt so sick reading he started regulation of meats in this country.

IllTestYourGirls

You could make a million but they could take a million it us 100% up to them not you, so yes you have no control of the amount you make they do.

Seriously you think there would still be lead paint if the government didnt step in? Do you think a company would last long selling tainted food? Do you think a drug company that sold drugs that killed people would still be in business? Oh wait on the drug thing, the government is doing just that with many drug companies LOL.

No Im not advocating anarchy.

Really, you really believe that?

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TheDoc

If we borrowed money from China that was already on the market and part of a reverse trade dept, how is that going to hurt us? Just wondering...

The free market was taking a shit long before bailouts happened or any Gov take over started.

I don't think the Gov is the answer to ALL of our problems, I don't think people believe the Gov is the answer either. But the free market screwed Americans and it "took" the Gov to step in to correct a problem.

Bailout wise... it's the cost of doing business with the Government. You want 1 they take 2, and will charge you 3. If you don't want the Gov involved, keep the free markets in check.

The Gov's job is to protect the people... some feel that's what they just did.

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tony286

believe what part? about the internet its not a belief its a fact, if it wasnt for government funding it wouldnt of happened.

Marc Andreessen: Mosaic was built at the University of Illinois. I was an undergrad student, but I was also a staff member at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, which is basically a federally funded research institute. When Al Gore says that he created the Internet, he means that he funded these four national supercomputing centers. Federal funding was critical. I tease my libertarian friends—they all think the Internet is the greatest thing. And I’m like, Yeah, thanks to government funding.

IllTestYourGirls

Your right they should protect us from the evils of porn and make it illegal.

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TheDoc

So you think the greedy people that already fucked Americans over through this mess, knowingly polluted waters and had to clean them up, dumped toxic crap into lakes, buried oil and toxins in the ground, drug companies that have killed huge amounts of people and still sell the shit right up until they are sued and lets not forget all the Obama money people took...

Yet you think Companies wouldn't continue to kill, harm, fuck, Americans over for an extra penny?

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IllTestYourGirls

You can not prove something like this would never have happened. I am amazed at the how people who say they are on the left like to use this argument. It is fundamentally flawed. You can not prove a negative.

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LiveDose

See with every post you make, your ideology always shows up. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED??? Because it happened the way it did?

You make way to many assumptions and your extreme faith in the government is puzzling. You really trust Washington?

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tony286

you know better than the guy who created netscape? ok

IllTestYourGirls

Would you buy from them if they did? Or should we just make laws so they can pollute a little, or trade for pollution, or lobby to kill people? So its all "legal" so it must be good?

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IllTestYourGirls

Well if he doesnt know you cant prove a negative, then yes.

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LiveDose

You beat me to it. I'm glad I am not the only one puzzled by this way of thinking...

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tony286

and you make assumptions about 20 yrs from now? so how is it different and your not showing your ideology? I dont have blind faith but life isnt black or white. its not any government is bad or all government is good. That's what pundits want you to believe and thats not how it works its somewhere in the middle.

tony286

ok whatever you say. When facts dont matter than there is no point of this. lol goodnight

TheDoc

So you think with alllll that big'ol logic in your heads, that the funding to start it, research it, create it, ect... all paid for by the gov (if that was NEVER around)

That some how... the free market, that wasn't developing it, didn't have the funding for it and so on.. some how would have done this, and some how colleges would have got hooked up by corp funding, and some how the entire country would have gotten high speed Internet.....

Corporate funding or maybe public funded... hell the Internet could be as good as public tv then, amazing idea!

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IllTestYourGirls

You forgot to add if God never created man that high speed internet would never have been created.

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LiveDose

Do you think I am just assuming that we are paying interest on this borrowed money?

And yes politics in Washington is so fucking dirty right now that I don't trust anyone there. The system is completely corrupt, the way of doing 'business' there is completely corrupt and taxpayers have been taking it up the ass for way too long.

So Tony would you say that your thinking is somewhere in the middle..............

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LiveDose

What on earth are you babbling about...?

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kane

I supposes if that is scenario then yes, they could raise taxes to 100% and control how much money I make. Any government could do that, not just a fascist one.

There was just a big rush of toys that had lead paint in them that came over from China. I think they would sell us lead toys in a heartbeat. I also think there are many companies that would do the same in the name of profit.

Do you think car companies choose to not recall cars that they know could explode on impact? They do if they decide the cost of paying vicitms is less than the cost of paying for a recall.

A food company may not last long, but how many people would die before it was figured out? There was the recent problem with that company and the tainted peanut butter. So if there is no FDA or government body that regulates this stuff how long would it have been until it was tracked down? When it was would anything have happened? I'm sure they could have just promised everything was fine and offered their customers a price break and rolled on as if nothing was wrong.

Sure, there are dangerous drugs out there. Often times it takes many years to learn of all the side effects. I'm not for a second saying that the system is perfect. But with the FDA there is a guidelines they have to follow and tests they have to do. Without that they may just rush it to market. If a bunch of people die from the drug it will put the company out of business (most likely), but at what cost? If the tests the FDA wants would have stopped those deaths is that not a good thing?

I think the basic difference we have is that you feel that the market will always take care of itself and that businesses will always do the right thing because that is what will keep them in business. I think there are businesses out there that are that way, but I think there are also a lot of them that would cut back on safety, put out dangerous products and do anything they could to increase profits.

I don't think government is the answer to every problem, but I think some regulation on the markets and on business is a good thing.

kane

Well, they are doing it now and there are still people buying from them. Imagine if there was no regulation what they might be doing. Most people don't care as long as it isn't happening to them. Look at all the people who buy clothes that are made by 6 year old kids in third world countries that are working in dangerous factories for pennies a day. They don't care. They want a good price on a t-shirt and as long as it isn't their kid being exploited no problem.

TheDoc

How do I know who is polluting now and who isn't? How do I know who is using slaves to produce my food?

They had to make the laws, because this was going on and they did kill people, pollute, and so on..

So with it, somethings will slip through the cracks... without, we saw happens with GE and many other American Corporations that wouldn't dare hurt consumers.

The Cigarette Companies wouldn't ever say... oh, naaa... no corporation would ever do anything bad to people, they might stop buying....

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