Intellectual property quagmire. - GoFuckYourself.com

borked · 09-20-2006, 12:56 PM

Hi folks -
I'm not naive about intellectual property, since most of what I write for people, the iT rests with me. I wrote it, you paid to use it. It's mine, whether you solicited and paid me to code it for you or not. You paid me to write you a programme which you use, but you don't have the right to redistribute my code or sell it on, without my permission.
Well, those are my terms.

So, I've come across a bit of a head scratcher, where both parties claim intellectual property.

I just spent the good part of a month writing a web application for someone. The idea was relatively straightforward - just needed fingers tapping away on a keyboard to implement it. But as I was writing it, I saw a huge gaping hole in the potential. The thrill of writing for something which could end up being a standard (geek thrill) got the better of me and I hit the guy I was writing for up on ICQ to run it by him. He loved it and doubled the price to implement it. So I did.

So the project is delivered, but I think I shot the gun a little too early. The code is nicely packaged and could be delivered as an independent standalone installer without too much trouble. Yet can I deliver it for others to buy?

I wrote it for someone else, but the novel idea is mine. Yet, and here's the catch22, it can't be implemented on its own. I've told the guy his code will not be unique as I intend to open it up to the wider community, yet he threatens to sue if I do.

Do you think it's my intellectual property or his?

squishypimp · 09-20-2006, 12:56 PM

bump for an interesting read.

borked · 09-20-2006, 12:57 PM

shit you read fast!

StuartD · 09-20-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borked

shit you read fast!

no, he just posts fast.

extreme · 09-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Important info missiong.
Which country?

Laws are differnt.

DateDoc · 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM

It is interesting that due to agreement the purchaser cannot resell it, however, you do not mention if there was a contingency enforcing you not to resell it. As the customer, I would be pissed if you did. What you should have done is code his project then do your own with your new idea. Right now, your best bet is to offer him a cut of the sales.

Is this going to make you a little bit of money by reselling it or a lot? You may lose a few jobs by peddling it as rumors get passed around. Weigh out the benefits and if you have doubts about the ethics of what you are doing don't do it.

XPays · 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM

did you have a contract? if yes- did you give the buyer a limited license for his own use? if not, then it is his - work for hire.

edit- i see your first paragraph but is your agreement in writing ?

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:07 PM

Me France, him US, which is why the threat of legal action isn't too much of a concern. Yet of course, if I sold it on, it would be the US market which took it up.

extreme · 09-20-2006, 01:09 PM

The question then is if work for hire exists in France. If it doesn't then it's yours provided you did not sign a copyright transfer.

Phoenix · 09-20-2006, 01:09 PM

hmm...i dont know enough about the law to offer a suggestion.
However if it is in your terms that they agreed to...i dont see how they could sell it.

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:11 PM

No, there was no contract as such - all electronic: He puts down his needs, I come up with a time frame and price. He agrees. I deliver my code with my terms and conditions pasted on every page of code.

I need to revisit this legal shit! I was more implementing it to protect me from being shafted....

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by extreme

The question then is if work for hire exists in France. If it doesn't then it's yours provided you did not sign a copyright transfer.

If work for hire exists?
I don't understand what you're asking? Sure there are programmers.....

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XPays

edit- i see your first paragraph but is your agreement in writing ?

see above - not before the programme was written. Only upon delivery...as such, as I see it if he executes the code, he's agreeing to it....

Libertine · 09-20-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borked

No, there was no contract as such - all electronic: He puts down his needs, I come up with a time frame and price. He agrees. I deliver my code with my terms and conditions pasted on every page of code.

I need to revisit this legal shit! I was more implementing it to protect me from being shafted....

Sorry, but you're screwed. Should've used a signed contract

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:23 PM

My disclaimer on every page of code:

Code:

#########################################################################################
#                                                                                       #
# This programme (the code) is the intellectual property of xxxx xxxxxxxx (the author). #
#       You may not reproduce, copy, redistribute, or sell the code or any part thereof      #
#                 without the expressed permission of the author.                       #
#           Where publicly available code is reproduced within the code,                #
#all intellectual property resides with the author and is stated in comments throughout.#
#                                                                                       #
#     If you doubt the ownsership of intellectual property of the author's code,        #
#          you are not permitted to execute any part of the following code.             #
#                                                                                       #
#                       For any questions, email xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                        #
#                                                                                       #
#########################################################################################

borked · 09-20-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Sorry, but you're screwed. Should've used a signed contract

Couldn't the same be said for the other guy?

Juilan · 09-20-2006, 01:29 PM

In the US it would be his.

Libertine · 09-20-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borked

Couldn't the same be said for the other guy?

Nope. As a freelancer, you were working for him while coding. Thus, anything you produced while working for him, belongs to him.

Unless, of course, you made it perfectly clear beforehand that he was only paying for a single license of the software, rather than the creation of the software.

Solid Bob · 09-20-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Nope. As a freelancer, you were working for him while coding. Thus, anything you produced while working for him, belongs to him.

Unless, of course, you made it perfectly clear beforehand that he was only paying for a single license of the software, rather than the creation of the software.

It is not that cut and dry.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid Bob

It is not that cut and dry.

Correct.

extreme · 09-20-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borked

If work for hire exists?
I don't understand what you're asking? Sure there are programmers.....

"work for hire" is a copyright law concept.

Means that as soon as someone pays someone to do something the IP of the work created belongs to the one who paid for it. Many countries don't recognize that concept in their laws.

European Lee · 09-20-2006, 02:05 PM

Just change the code around and resell it.

Problem solved.

You arent 'selling' what you provided him but a similar package that does a similar thing, much like how Frontpage, Dreamweaver, and CuteHTML do the same thing but, are different applications.

Regards,

Lee

borked · 09-20-2006, 02:11 PM

I don't get it then, if it's clear cut on it his - most of my functions come from my own library, which get used and reused time and time again. They're mine.

So if someone asks me to write something similar, or crap, identical, I have to refuse because I will reuse the same code?

WiredGuy · 09-20-2006, 02:14 PM

I believe Evan is correct here, if there was no written explicit contract, then you are on a for-hire basis and have a feduciary relationship to the person who hired you to do the job. If you have a written license agreement that allows you to resell, then you're fine. What I do wonder however, is if you do not deliver the product (ie: cancel the work for the client), don't deliver it and go ahead and repackage this as an independent software package for sale, I think you can do that with minimal risk. Assuming of course you didn't sign an NDA... I think Evan would know more about the IP behind this, but the above sounds more feasible if you want to keep the IP to yourself. It makes you look bad to the client, that's true, but if the potential is there, it may be a better option in the long run.
WG

borked · 09-20-2006, 02:26 PM

Yup, I hear what you're all saying.
The product was already delivered as source code.
No contracts or anything were talked about before, during or after - all that there is is my disclaimer on the the code. It was only a couple of k worth of programming, and the fact that the guy paid extra for "my idea" makes me even more hesitant, since it wasn't in the original resume of what he wanted.

Sure, I could go Lee's route, rewrite the code (which would need to be done, since it was done for the guys specific needs), package it and encrypt it, but downstream repercussions...?

The crux for me is that it was my additional idea which I want to market...but it's written in his code (to make his programme better...)

Think I'll go see some IP dudes.

Libertine · 09-20-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borked

I don't get it then, if it's clear cut on it his - most of my functions come from my own library, which get used and reused time and time again. They're mine.

So if someone asks me to write something similar, or crap, identical, I have to refuse because I will reuse the same code?

Your function library is yours, yes. And you are, in most cases, allowed to use it again and again and again in similar projects.

The problem arises when you do commissioned work. In most cases, especially when the buyer gives a description of what he wants, the project as a whole, as well as the truly novel parts derived from and essential to the project as a whole, belong to him.

Think about it - otherwise, all freelance programmers would just start their own script sites, and sell off commissioned work as packages, since they coded it already anyway.

You kinda fucked yourself, in this case, by especially asking him about developing the novel feature, and getting paid extra to develop it.

One way you might get around all this, though, is to recode the entire thing, but with a few structural differences. This'll only work if the project was somewhat similar to existing software, though (so he can't take credit for the idea).

09-20-2006, 12:56 PM	#1
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	Intellectual property quagmire. Hi folks - I'm not naive about intellectual property, since most of what I write for people, the iT rests with me. I wrote it, you paid to use it. It's mine, whether you solicited and paid me to code it for you or not. You paid me to write you a programme which you use, but you don't have the right to redistribute my code or sell it on, without my permission. Well, those are my terms. So, I've come across a bit of a head scratcher, where both parties claim intellectual property. I just spent the good part of a month writing a web application for someone. The idea was relatively straightforward - just needed fingers tapping away on a keyboard to implement it. But as I was writing it, I saw a huge gaping hole in the potential. The thrill of writing for something which could end up being a standard (geek thrill) got the better of me and I hit the guy I was writing for up on ICQ to run it by him. He loved it and doubled the price to implement it. So I did. So the project is delivered, but I think I shot the gun a little too early. The code is nicely packaged and could be delivered as an independent standalone installer without too much trouble. Yet can I deliver it for others to buy? I wrote it for someone else, but the novel idea is mine. Yet, and here's the catch22, it can't be implemented on its own. I've told the guy his code will not be unique as I intend to open it up to the wider community, yet he threatens to sue if I do. Do you think it's my intellectual property or his? __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202 Last edited by borked; 09-20-2006 at 12:57 PM..

09-20-2006, 12:56 PM	#2
squishypimp PostMaster General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10,781	bump for an interesting read. __________________ Signature For Sale

09-20-2006, 12:57 PM	#3
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	shit you read fast! __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202

09-20-2006, 01:01 PM	#5
extreme Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 2,120	Important info missiong. Which country? Laws are differnt. __________________ Browse and find new paysites with screenshot-preview Export FHGs/FLVs/Paysites by JSON, XML, CSV and Text Find FHGs/FLVs/Paysites from any given Category or Search-query

09-20-2006, 01:06 PM	#6
DateDoc Outside looking in. Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: To Hell You Ride Posts: 14,243	It is interesting that due to agreement the purchaser cannot resell it, however, you do not mention if there was a contingency enforcing you not to resell it. As the customer, I would be pissed if you did. What you should have done is code his project then do your own with your new idea. Right now, your best bet is to offer him a cut of the sales. Is this going to make you a little bit of money by reselling it or a lot? You may lose a few jobs by peddling it as rumors get passed around. Weigh out the benefits and if you have doubts about the ethics of what you are doing don't do it. __________________

09-20-2006, 01:06 PM	#7
XPays Team Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Inside the most accurately counting and reporting affiliate system in the world at XPays.com Posts: 13,002	did you have a contract? if yes- did you give the buyer a limited license for his own use? if not, then it is his - work for hire. edit- i see your first paragraph but is your agreement in writing ? __________________ InterNext Expo Domain Auction Live Now thru Feb 5 HuntingMoon GFY Domains Marketplace is LIVE XPays always pays! Top Site: * RealJasmine.com * + HotelHeiress® with The Paris Hilton Sex Video Insert the HotelHeiress® HD FEED into your members areas XPin.com Opening for Pin Partners Soonish Mainstream Offers For Emailers and DomainersNONADULT.COM Like Us! Last edited by XPays; 09-20-2006 at 01:07 PM..

09-20-2006, 01:07 PM	#8
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	Me France, him US, which is why the threat of legal action isn't too much of a concern. Yet of course, if I sold it on, it would be the US market which took it up. __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202

09-20-2006, 01:09 PM	#9
extreme Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 2,120	The question then is if work for hire exists in France. If it doesn't then it's yours provided you did not sign a copyright transfer. __________________ Browse and find new paysites with screenshot-preview Export FHGs/FLVs/Paysites by JSON, XML, CSV and Text Find FHGs/FLVs/Paysites from any given Category or Search-query

09-20-2006, 01:09 PM	#10
Phoenix BACON BACON BACON Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet Posts: 35,462	hmm...i dont know enough about the law to offer a suggestion. However if it is in your terms that they agreed to...i dont see how they could sell it. __________________ Skype Phoenixskype1 Telegram PhoenixBrad https://quantads.io

09-20-2006, 01:11 PM	#11
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	No, there was no contract as such - all electronic: He puts down his needs, I come up with a time frame and price. He agrees. I deliver my code with my terms and conditions pasted on every page of code. I need to revisit this legal shit! I was more implementing it to protect me from being shafted.... __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202

09-20-2006, 01:29 PM	#17
Juilan Sultan of Swing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: XXXodus Posts: 15,141	In the US it would be his. __________________ My Best Converting VOD Sponsor \|

09-20-2006, 02:05 PM	#22
European Lee Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Daytona Beach Posts: 7,133	Just change the code around and resell it. Problem solved. You arent 'selling' what you provided him but a similar package that does a similar thing, much like how Frontpage, Dreamweaver, and CuteHTML do the same thing but, are different applications. Regards, Lee __________________ YOUR TRAFFIC IS SAFE WITH US - CONDOM CASH PUTTING THE GAY ADULT INDUSTRY ON YOUR PC!! AFFORDABLE 2257 COMPLIANT GAY + BI CONTENT

09-20-2006, 02:11 PM	#23
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	I don't get it then, if it's clear cut on it his - most of my functions come from my own library, which get used and reused time and time again. They're mine. So if someone asks me to write something similar, or crap, identical, I have to refuse because I will reuse the same code? __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202

09-20-2006, 02:14 PM	#24
WiredGuy Pounding Googlebot Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 34,485	I believe Evan is correct here, if there was no written explicit contract, then you are on a for-hire basis and have a feduciary relationship to the person who hired you to do the job. If you have a written license agreement that allows you to resell, then you're fine. What I do wonder however, is if you do not deliver the product (ie: cancel the work for the client), don't deliver it and go ahead and repackage this as an independent software package for sale, I think you can do that with minimal risk. Assuming of course you didn't sign an NDA... I think Evan would know more about the IP behind this, but the above sounds more feasible if you want to keep the IP to yourself. It makes you look bad to the client, that's true, but if the potential is there, it may be a better option in the long run. WG __________________ I play with Google.

09-20-2006, 02:26 PM	#25
borked Totally Borked Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,284	Yup, I hear what you're all saying. The product was already delivered as source code. No contracts or anything were talked about before, during or after - all that there is is my disclaimer on the the code. It was only a couple of k worth of programming, and the fact that the guy paid extra for "my idea" makes me even more hesitant, since it wasn't in the original resume of what he wanted. Sure, I could go Lee's route, rewrite the code (which would need to be done, since it was done for the guys specific needs), package it and encrypt it, but downstream repercussions...? The crux for me is that it was my additional idea which I want to market...but it's written in his code (to make his programme better...) Think I'll go see some IP dudes. __________________ For coding work - hit me up on andy // borkedcoder // com (consider figuring out the email as test #1) All models are wrong, but some are useful. George E.P. Box. p202