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Vendzilla 07-17-2011 01:27 PM
Debt Ceiling talks
 
http://www.hoover.org/publications/d.../article/80786

After reading this, I have to wonder since it worked for Canada, why is the Obamanation (Obama Administration) not doing the same thing?

The reason I ask this is all the passionate Canadians that call me names when I say I don't like our POTUS. I'm not against Canadians, I make fun of their Navy, but envy their choice of cigars and bacon. I never really looked at the politics of Canada, never cared, but I was watching some news this morning which I haven't had a lot of time to do lately and on the John Stossel show ( Who is a libertarian ) he was talking about how Canada turned it around and it was the Liberal party that did the big changes? I had to read more and found this report, pretty interesting.

I hope the GOP sticks with what they promised when they ran for office last November. Cut spending, like the Canadians did , it worked for them..........

Or we could do like Greece did, didn't work too well for them, we'll see, I'm sure they will have to compromise

But I'm sure TheDoc will have charts, conjecture and cave drawings that will prove without a shadow of the doubt that everything on that page is absolutely wrong, I love debating with him, he never gives up!

Agent 488 07-17-2011 01:31 PM
you are the classic stereotype of a laughable american buffoon.

Agent 488 07-17-2011 01:35 PM
you can't compare budget and debt reductions of the 80s and 90s that happened in most western countries. totally different circumstances.

Vendzilla 07-17-2011 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 18288189)
you can't compare budget and debt reductions of the 80s and 90s that happened in most western countries. totally different circumstances.
And what would you do that's different? I mean instead of calling me names, then running away without saying why?

Vendzilla 07-17-2011 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18288249)
First, we are not Canadians. I don't mean that in a bad way, but their largest exports or trading partner is us. The majority of their economy is based on natural resources/business sold to us. Meaning, they just had to cut back on spending while their GDP grew because of their largest trading partner, us. Second, we have 10x the population of Canada and don't have a trading partner comparatively. So using them as a model is like comparing grapes to watermelons.

Anyway, you still want to talk about cuts and Government spending. Why don't we start with farm subsidies.
You hit it right that they are not the same, but the general idea is the same. We spend more than we take in and raising taxes is something they did during the depression and it didn't work. Closing the tax loop holes is a good idea, but raising the over all tax rate for those making over 250k I don't see that helping the economy. If the loop holes stay in place, it's not going to bring in that much, but I'm more in favor of cutting government waste first.
Subsidies are a great place to start, Corn for methanol is ridiculous.

BlackCrayon 07-17-2011 04:03 PM
the article doesn't appear to mention the GST which was introduced around 1991 i think. i don't have time to read the whole article right now but that is my first thought. also want to say, i think you are a good guy vendzilla, i just don't agree with a lot of your politics and often how you present them.

The Demon 07-17-2011 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 18288186)
you are the classic stereotype of a laughable american buffoon.
Oh the irony.

Tempest 07-17-2011 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18288179)
http://www.hoover.org/publications/d.../article/80786

After reading this, I have to wonder since it worked for Canada, why is the Obamanation (Obama Administration) not doing the same thing?

The reason I ask this is all the passionate Canadians that call me names when I say I don't like our POTUS. I'm not against Canadians, I make fun of their Navy, but envy their choice of cigars and bacon. I never really looked at the politics of Canada, never cared, but I was watching some news this morning which I haven't had a lot of time to do lately and on the John Stossel show ( Who is a libertarian ) he was talking about how Canada turned it around and it was the Liberal party that did the big changes? I had to read more and found this report, pretty interesting.

I hope the GOP sticks with what they promised when they ran for office last November. Cut spending, like the Canadians did , it worked for them..........

Or we could do like Greece did, didn't work too well for them, we'll see, I'm sure they will have to compromise

But I'm sure TheDoc will have charts, conjecture and cave drawings that will prove without a shadow of the doubt that everything on that page is absolutely wrong, I love debating with him, he never gives up!
The article is misleading.. The truth is, that the previous government, The Conservatives under Brian Mulroney had the balls to do what was required to fix things.. They signed the free trade agreement with the US and introduced the GST which was basically a tax increase. Both things led to a lot more money for businesses and the government... Of course the cost of that was Brian Mulroney becoming probably the most hated leader in Canada. Thus the liberals came to power. They promised to get rid of the GST and didn't. They became very corrupt and as much as they may have made some cuts, they also spent a lot... People may not want to admit it, but the state of our economy and debt ratio is primary due to the hard choices Mulroney made and implemented. I don't see anyone in the US that has the balls to commit political suicide to do that sort of thing.

raymor 07-17-2011 05:51 PM
It's refreshing to look at actual experience rather than conjecture.
So much of what we argue about in the US has been tried elsewhere
or in certain states. We can look to see whether it worked or not.

One example being "gun control". Serious restrictions on the
ability to defend oneself have been trade many times in many
places and have ALWAYS resulted in a major increase in violent
crime, so it's really time to open our eyes and see reality rather than arguing.

Tempest also has a good point. To fix this mess, we'll have to maker some tough choices. We just can't adored to pay people on unemployment for three years at a time, for example. At some point you just have to take a job you don't like until something better comes along. To day these things out loud is almost political suicide. The voters don't seem to want leaders willing to make hard but necesary decisions.

That's one thing I like about Chris Cristie. He's willing to take the political heat for honestly arresting the tough choices At one speech to politicians he said something about the fact that social security will not have the money too pay out in a couple of years. ITo "save" social security, he correctly pointed out, will require significant changes. The math just doesn't work unless you raise the retirement age by several years OR cut benefits. He then pointed out "I'm still here. I said social security and I didn't disappear". Our "leaders" need to grow some balls and lead, starting at the top.

Tempest 07-17-2011 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymor (Post 18288506)
To fix this mess, we'll have to maker some tough choices. We just can't adored to pay people on unemployment for three years at a time, for example. At some point you just have to take a job you don't like until something better comes along. To day these things out loud is almost political suicide. The voters don't seem to want leaders willing to make hard but necessary decisions.
While Mulroney did put in place some things that were required, as well as making headway on the debt ratio, spending etc., the Liberals did in fact do a lot of things to continue the progress... They changed unemployment benefits for example to require people to work longer and it paid out less and over less time. They also increased taxes at one point for awhile and then when things were better, cut them. It took a long time and some very unpopular decisions... after Mulroney, his party was wiped out in the next election. And when I say wiped out, I mean gone.. That particular party no longer exists. So when us Canadians talk about what the US would need to do, we've actually lived through it and have a pretty good idea what's needed.

raymor 07-17-2011 06:24 PM
In regards tough choices and unpopular decisions:

A leader takes people where they want to go. A great leader takes people where they don't necessarily want to go, but ought to be." Rosalynn Carter

Vendzilla 07-17-2011 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 18288362)
the article doesn't appear to mention the GST which was introduced around 1991 i think. i don't have time to read the whole article right now but that is my first thought. also want to say, i think you are a good guy vendzilla, i just don't agree with a lot of your politics and often how you present them.
I like you too, I think it's sad when people are incapable of a different point of view, since I have been in this industry, my personal political views have changed alot, people think I'm a republican, nope, just hate the present Obamanation, I mean administration, one of his first acts gave the power of tobacco sales to the FDA. That killed one of my websites because of restrictions they placed on cigarettes sold by native american tribes on how they shiped it. They also made fruit flavored rolling papers illegal and it's just been going down hill ever since, it's rare I hear something from him I like, when he said he wasn't going to spend federal money to bust legal by california laws , marijuana collectives, he of course lied. But he got a cheer from me for a little while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18288276)
Yes, but this is where most republicans fail to understand. The Bush tax cuts have been in effect for the last decade and there is NO new business growth. I'm not blaming the republicans, but just proves that we are in serious trouble when our only option is to tax the wealthy because they have the option to leave or NOT spend.
The Bush Administration is no way to judge being conservative, people like tax cuts, weather it worked or not, I think during a down cycle, it's not going to help to take them away, but unlike most people, I think there are so many loop holes for the super rich, it will not effect them, in fact , they will probably figure out a way to have it help them. That leaves the small business's that are earning 250K, like a small contracting company, or a good bar, these companies will feel the brunt of it, but thats what I think.

I see the politicians mouths moving, but no truth is coming out and they don't know what the effects of their actions will take, as long as they can stay in office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest (Post 18288459)
The article is misleading.. The truth is, that the previous government, The Conservatives under Brian Mulroney had the balls to do what was required to fix things.. They signed the free trade agreement with the US and introduced the GST which was basically a tax increase. Both things led to a lot more money for businesses and the government... Of course the cost of that was Brian Mulroney becoming probably the most hated leader in Canada. Thus the liberals came to power. They promised to get rid of the GST and didn't. They became very corrupt and as much as they may have made some cuts, they also spent a lot... People may not want to admit it, but the state of our economy and debt ratio is primary due to the hard choices Mulroney made and implemented. I don't see anyone in the US that has the balls to commit political suicide to do that sort of thing.
Tempest, I wish more people would come in these threads and give information like that, it's politics and opinions vary. I read what you said, but I have to think, the end result is you guys are doing pretty good now?

I have a problem with NAFTA in that China was made a partner in that, wonder how much money changed hands for that? For Canada, we've probably done very well

TheDoc 07-17-2011 08:01 PM
Bit of a failed troll attempt... I lived in Canada, rather liked what they offered, including the socialized medical system. I understand a base of 15% more tax from personal to corps, and 7% gross on crops, means they don't have to raise taxes 'more'... and I can't recall ever saying don't cut spending... but whatever.

Funny still... do what they do, socialized, taxed way more all over, Canada. I'll sleep well tonight.

Tempest 07-17-2011 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18288608)
Tempest, I wish more people would come in these threads and give information like that, it's politics and opinions vary. I read what you said, but I have to think, the end result is you guys are doing pretty good now?
Like most of the world, we were negatively impacted by the financial crisis. But apparently we have the strongest economy of the G8 nations at this point. We were able to rebound quicker because the effects weren't as deep.. We regulate our banks a lot more.. The type of stuff that was going on in the US isn't allowed up here...

We're still recovering but overall we're doing much better than the US. The US is our biggest exports partner so of course our economy was hit by the US downturn... But we've been diversifying our exports over the last few years to other countries like China in order to lessen those types of impacts.

Out Debt to GDP is up, but that's to be expected after the last couple years.. It's still a lot lower than the US though... One stat says it's about 59% for the US and 34% for Canada.

Unemployment rate is around 7.4%/7.6%.. It's been falling steadily since maybe Jan 2010 after hitting a high of around 8.7%. Don't know how much lower it will get given our lowest over the last few decades was around 6%.. Looking at the US though, yours is at around 9% and not really going down.. Your high was just over 10%?

Like I said, because we keep tighter control on our financial sector, we weren't hit as hard. But a poor US economy impacts ours, something I hope our government continues to work on through more diversification.

Tempest 07-17-2011 10:14 PM
By the way.. as much as the US is our biggest export partner, we're the US's as well.. We import from the US almost as much as we export... We primarily export raw material and import goods.

Vendzilla 07-17-2011 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest (Post 18288716)
By the way.. as much as the US is our biggest export partner, we're the US's as well.. We import from the US almost as much as we export... We primarily export raw material and import goods.
Thats what makes a good trade partner

Tjeezers 07-17-2011 11:31 PM
The USA went broke a long time ago

Barry-xlovecam 07-18-2011 06:51 AM
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/201...ebt_110718.GIF

Handling of Debt Ceiling Negotiations CBS Poll

marketsmart 07-18-2011 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18288179)

I hope the GOP sticks with what they promised when they ran for office last November. Cut spending, like the Canadians did , it worked for them..........
i like your patience...

funny how you jumped on obama from day one, but have given the republicans plenty of time to do what they promised..

i have news for you jagoff, they havent done fuck all of what they promised and they never will...

just like the democrats...

i am going to nominate you for best troll threads of the year because i just find it hard to believe that you could be this stupid... :2 cents:






.

pornguy 07-18-2011 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18288249)
First, we are not Canadians. I don't mean that in a bad way, but their largest exports or trading partner is us. The majority of their economy is based on natural resources/business sold to us. Meaning, they just had to cut back on spending while their GDP grew because of their largest trading partner, us. Second, we have 10x the population of Canada and don't have a trading partner comparatively. So using them as a model is like comparing grapes to watermelons.

Anyway, you still want to talk about cuts and Government spending? Why don't we start with farm subsidies.
Honestly I think before I took a look at cutting Farm Subsidies, I would take a look at the cost of running the current Government. The cost of running the White House alone is staggering.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289307)
i like your patience...

funny how you jumped on obama from day one, but have given the republicans plenty of time to do what they promised..

i have news for you jagoff, they havent done fuck all of what they promised and they never will...

just like the democrats...

i am going to nominate you for best troll threads of the year because i just find it hard to believe that you could be this stupid... :2 cents:




.
Jagoff, is that a word? Low on your meds again?

I'm going to try to get this thru your thick head one last time, I don't like anyone that's in office right now. Sorry that my disdain for the new republicans hasn't met with your approval.

MaDalton 07-18-2011 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18289471)
How about we do both? Anyway, the average farmer can claim up to $40k or $80k per-household in federal subsidies regardless if they grow anything. The Government does this to stabilize prices to insure some type of a balanced system. The majority of farmers are republicans who will ignore the fact that farm subsidies are nothing more then a form of socialism. Or as I call it, favoritism because it's just another form of welfare.
sounds pretty socialistic to me...

The Demon 07-18-2011 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289307)
i like your patience...

funny how you jumped on obama from day one, but have given the republicans plenty of time to do what they promised..

i have news for you jagoff, they havent done fuck all of what they promised and they never will...

just like the democrats...

i am going to nominate you for best troll threads of the year because i just find it hard to believe that you could be this stupid... :2 cents:






.
I think most of us prefer his posts to your retarded and insecure "everyone is a sheeple its all a giant conspiracy" bullshit. Talk about trolling.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18289471)
How about we do both? Anyway, the average farmer can claim up to $40k or $80k per-household in federal subsidies regardless if they grow anything. The Government does this to stabilize prices to insure some type of a balanced system. The majority of farmers are republicans who will ignore the fact that farm subsidies are nothing more then a form of socialism. Or as I call it, favoritism because it's just another form of welfare.
I think everything needs to be looked at, there use to be a government agency that did that, it was cut from the budget

PornoMonster 07-18-2011 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18289557)
I think everything needs to be looked at, there use to be a government agency that did that, it was cut from the budget
Yep, Close all loop holes.
I know several farmers that are highly pissed, at the people who do not farm but own land and get this money.
While some Farmers need this, Others do not. I heard Disney World is considered a farm.
This also goes for other social programs, some people still need them, some are milking the system.

marketsmart 07-18-2011 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 18289531)
I think most of us prefer his posts to your retarded and insecure "everyone is a sheeple its all a giant conspiracy" bullshit. Talk about trolling.
you're a fucking idiot and a pussy...

now go fuck your mother... :thumbsup





.

marketsmart 07-18-2011 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18289417)
Jagoff, is that a word? Low on your meds again?

I'm going to try to get this thru your thick head one last time, I don't like anyone that's in office right now. Sorry that my disdain for the new republicans hasn't met with your approval.
you talk out of both sides of your mouth...

you're a fool... :2 cents:






.

The Demon 07-18-2011 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289706)
you're a fucking idiot and a pussy...

now go fuck your mother... :thumbs


.
I rest my case :)

Agent 488 07-18-2011 10:59 AM
close all poop holes ..

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289708)
you talk out of both sides of your mouth...

you're a fool... :2 cents:

.
When you speak in person, do you spit a lot?

We're having a discussion, you're yelling at your monitor and you call me a fool?

The Demon 07-18-2011 11:10 AM
Forgive market, he's simple.

marketsmart 07-18-2011 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18289737)
When you speak in person, do you spit a lot?

We're having a discussion, you're yelling at your monitor and you call me a fool?
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

yes, i get so upset about your ignorance...

if anythhing, i am riding my roflcopter around my office....



.

marketsmart 07-18-2011 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 18289743)
Forgive market, he's simple.
a 3 year old with downs has a better grasp of politics than and zilla do... :thumbsup






.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289783)
a 3 year old with downs has a better grasp of politics than and zilla do... :thumbsup






.
At least use complete sentences.

I do love it when people have a different opinion than they do and are somehow less of a person because of it, you should get out more

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289778)
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

yes, i get so upset about your ignorance...

if anythhing, i am riding my roflcopter around my office....



.
roflcopter, I thought is was a little yellow bus

The Demon 07-18-2011 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289783)
a 3 year old with downs has a better grasp of politics than and zilla do... :thumbsup




.
At least speak English when embarrassing yourself. :)

_Richard_ 07-18-2011 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 18289886)
At least speak English when embarrassing yourself. :)
everyone has their own "nitch"

marketsmart 07-18-2011 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 18289925)
everyone has their own "nitch"
mine is harassing mentally challenged fools on message boards... :thumbsup





.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ (Post 18289878)
I get that, but that was not truly my point. IMO the US is heavily divided on political ideology as they point the finger on cuts the other-side should lose as they also place blame on political parties when the true problem is us. Americans got soft with our great wealth and turned into a country of entitlements and it's well past being logical. Personally, I've never got a dime from any State or Fed program, ever.

Anyway, one day at the grocery store I was waiting behind and obese lady and her kids who were loading up sodas, ice cream, etc and then went to pay for it with FS-debit card. The checker then told this lady that some of the items purchase don't qualify for food stamps. The women starts arguing with the lady on each item in question, three minutes on fucking sliced Tyson chicken, alone.

As she was arguing I looked down and saw that her card was well used and instead of being grateful for a free food assistance program, she felt that having to cook her own chicken and slice it, would just be asking too much.

So what does this have to do with raising the debt ceiling? Again, we've turned into a country of entitlements. I personally believe we need to stop borrowing money, being the world police, regulate banks, Tax corporations fairly, and get back to being citizens that understand the difference from a hand-up from a hand-out.

It's amazing how Americans can so easily forget our great depression past. Did you know that 30% of the recruits who tried to join the military at the beginning of WW2 were rejected because of malnutrition? Did you know when soldiers were earning a steady income for serving their wives or family paid their welfare back?

Did you know in the past when Corporations try to weasel out of paying taxes and got themselves in trouble in foreign countries the government said, too fucking bad?

I don't want the economy to crash or go back to the living standards of the GD, but there's no way, even with a 50% tax increase for everyone to save this economy. Americans are discovering that hope and change won't pay their mortgage or raise their own CC debt limit/ceiling.

The sad part is we are truly in a lot of trouble and the rest of the world sees this, but most Americans don't have a clue because they'd rather argue that sliced chicken should be allowed on the food stamp program.
I've had the same thing happen with me, standing behind a family that didn't speak english and they were eating pretty damn good off food stamps.
They had to find someone that spoke spanish to help them.
I'm sure the kids got free lunches and a separate teacher that was bilingual

My daughters high school got some laosong students, maybe 10 kids, they had to hire a separate teacher just for them. Those same kids harrased some kids that walked thru their neighborhood, that didn't go over very well with me

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289940)
mine is harassing mentally challenged fools on message boards... :thumbsup





.
Too bad you fail at it

BFT3K 07-18-2011 12:32 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...html?tag=stack

marketsmart 07-18-2011 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18289958)
Too bad you fail at it
take a poll... :thumbsup

most people have come to the same conclusion about you that i have..

you are a complete dumbass... :2 cents:







.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BFT3K (Post 18289959)
which really doesn't have anything to do with the conversation.

not about polls, it's about what will work, not about the two party system thats working against it's self either

jimmy-3-way 07-18-2011 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18288179)

After reading this, I have to wonder since it worked for Canada, why is the Obamanation (Obama Administration) not doing the same thing?
Here's why:

Defense spending in $ and as a % of GDP:

US = $687,105,000,000 -- 4.7%
Canada = $20,164,000,000 -- 1.5%

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart (Post 18289967)
take a poll... :thumbsup

most people have come to the same conclusion about you that i have..

you are a complete dumbass... :2 cents:







.
Right now you're the only one in this thread thats incapable of being in the conversation. If you have nothing to say, GFY

epitome 07-18-2011 12:47 PM
Well I guess we could start saving money by shutting down the Navy. Those ships don't seem to do anything but "patrol" anyway.

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by epitome (Post 18290007)
Well I guess we could start saving money by shutting down the Navy. Those ships don't seem to do anything but "patrol" anyway.
Not true, My daughter was part of the humanitarian force that went to the Philipines to render support, a modern carrier can make water for a large city and supply power from her reators, it comes with an airport and a hospital

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38237

Vendzilla 07-18-2011 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy-3-way (Post 18289991)
Here's why:

Defense spending in $ and as a % of GDP:

US = $687,105,000,000 -- 4.7%
Canada = $20,164,000,000 -- 1.5%
I agree, we sholdn't be in those wars, people voted 2 1/2 years ago thinking that would stop it

epitome 07-18-2011 12:52 PM
Lets shut down the VA. Veterans aren't doing anything for us TODAY so why should we do anything for them? Besides, they already got paid when they were serving. They are as bad as union folks who want all of their benefits after retiring.

A bunch of lowlifes.

/sarcasm (but it proves my point...everybody wants something else cut but not anything they benefit from)

jimmy-3-way 07-18-2011 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 18290017)
I agree, we sholdn't be in those wars, people voted 2 1/2 years ago thinking that would stop it
Is there anything anyone could say that you can't come up with a comeback blaming Obama for?


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