Unclear On The Revshare Concept: Keeping All The Long Rebills
 

I just went to sign up for a new affiliate program and discovered a real gem among the terms and conditions. It seems this outfit pays a one-off pay-per-signup, or you can choose the revshare option -- but they only pay out on rebills during the first year. If the customer lasts longer than that, they keep all the older rebills.

This is for one of the leading contenders in the online virtual-adult-world space -- no need to name and shame because you'll see it if you try to sign up, it's not like they are hiding it or anything.

But still. Long term rebills are the gravy in the revshare pot, they are the only reason a smart affiliate chooses rebilling. To exclude them from payouts under the revshare scheme is a new level of either cluelessness or greed, I'm not sure which.

The "fuck the affiliate" game has been on for a few years now and it's only going to get worse. Due to falling revenues many companies are looking to cut in order to stay afloat. Affiliates are one of the easiest targets. Watch who you do business with. There is no reason to give these people a dime of what used to be your money.

If I understand this to mean that the affiliate gets the rebills for up to one year and after that the affiliates run ends and the continued rebills after one year go to the program.

The affiliate's job is to get a sale.

To get any continued rebills is pretty generous on the programs part.

To expect rebills after one year when ALL THE WORK done to keep the customer rebilling is DONE BY THE PROGRAM is in my opinion extremely greedy.

name names. show us who is fucking around.

Bullshit. That's not the accepted REV SHARE deal. Rev share means, as it has for over the last decade, that the affiliate gets his or her cut of the rebills as long as the customer rebills with no time limit. That is the deal. It isn't greedy on the affiliate's part at all. It's a choice between that and PPS

In fact between all the tracking issues and things like expired credit cards the program is already collecting a nice sum which in intent ought to be going to the affiliate. Don't forget that many people sign up once, cancel, then come back the next month or two and do it again. Most programs will not give the affiliate credit for this and it is a very common occurrence.

Revshare affiliates aren't greedy. In fact they are in it for the long haul and they want your company to be successful. They aren't PPS affiliates who can decide not to send you another hit and lose nothing beyond a month. They know that if your company goes down they will likely lose all those rebills. At the same time we expect more from you because of this. We expect honesty and some basic ethics.

I´m a former site owner with affiliates and i can only say. huh what?
Of course the affiliate should get rebills for life. it`s a sale the program wouldent have if the affiliate wasent there. And the work load is the same in terms of updates ect. for the programs inhouse sales.
Just extra cash for a very little effort. Yes, there is some support stuff. but cutting of the rebill after a year isent right.

Just my :2 cents:anyway.

What exactly does an afilliate do to make a customer rebill? Nothing.

What does a program do to make a customer rebill? Constantly add new content with up updates, interaction, cam show and so on. Thats all work done by the program.

All the affiliate did is send the customer in the right direction to make the sale. I understand that takes a great deal of work on the affiliates part as well but it has absolutely nothing to do as to whether the customer rebills or not.

The retention of the customer is due to the performance of the website NOT the work of the affiliate. Its a great deal for the affiliate to receive any rebills.

I don't care if its " The Deal ". Its not written in stone and it appears this program is up front and clear with their terms so there is no deception. Its an adapt or die scenario.

To bitch about not receiving rebills after one year is in my opinion, greedy.

that kind of defeats the point of rev share, doesn't it? your opinion that receiving any rebills is a great deal is simply that.

That WAS the deal. And quite frankly it's been what's kept me and many, many other affiliates going for the last few years.

But I'm afraid that affiliate programs are starting to realize that none of us have the traffic that we had 3 years ago. And because of that none of us can send NEW sales the way we used to. (thanks big tube sites full of stolen content)

So it looks like a lot of them are realizing that they are paying us rebills for nothing. Part of the "deal" with revshare was it created partners out of us affiliates. And when the program converted well and retained we all made great money as we kept sending new sales and building and building.

And that worked great for over 12 years. Piracy has changed that. Pornhub has over 10 million people on it everyday. :( And that's just ONE site.

So the affiliate programs are looking at their bottom line. Why should they keep paying me 50% of a sale I made a couple of years ago, when I can't send new sales at a pace to justify it? They are giving away HALF of their money to me as an affiliate for nothing in return.

I expect, unfortunately, to see this get worse and worse. That's why I keep saying that IF you have a sponsor who converts for you, then you better work your ass off and hang on to them for dear life.

Unless something happens soon, the entire affiliate model could be on it's last legs except for a very few people.

To take them from an affiliate after 10 years of the standard being otherwise in my opinion is greedy and also cries of desperation.

justinsain, if you own or manage any affiliate programs would you mind sharing which ones please? I like to keep a list for my own personal use. Thanks.

What is your take on affiliates that send sales that don't rebill? They sent the sale, as a pay site you failed to retain the member, making the affiliate lose out on money. Are you willing to pay your affiliates extra money per sale when the member does not rebill?

Desperation may be a harsh word. But trying to keep more money when the revenue stream is shrinking fast is very true. Look at how many affiliate programs have already shut their doors in just the last year. :(

what programs and paysites you affiliated with?

Sly I think we all know that many, many people join a website...and the first thing they do (even before they log in for the first time) is go back to the support page and cancel so they DON'T rebill.

It's just the nature of the beast.

Sure, I'm just trying to follow along with his thought process.

That's not necessarily true, affiliates with crap traffic give you crap retention, it's not only on the programs end. If we had sites that didn't retain at all we wouldn't have lasted 3 months in this industry. If you are using key words and advertising with methods like 'absolutely free porn' 'you don't have to pay any money ever!' '1$ fee only!' or with content that isn't on our sites or any other misleading advertising your traffic isn't going to retain at all, why? because you have misled them. Is that the programs fault?

Webmasters should be getting the revshare for life though, it is their sale after all.

name names so i don't waste traffic. can't go through hundreds of terms and conditions to find it. help your community out here.

As usual you make a good point and are being realistic. I agree that the trend is to screw affiliates and take from them. But I won't be sending any traffic to any program which changes terms in that way going forward and will blacklist anyone who does it retroactively. I hope others do the same.

The way I look at it it isn't "for nothing". I sent that sale to them under terms which stated I would get a cut for all rebills for life and I expect them. Who is to say they would have that customer in the first place if I didn't send them to them? I promote a lot of obscure niches and there are a few sites which I know for a fact most of the customers I send would have never found them. And when they first started I also know for a fact that I sent them over 50% of their signups and most of their traffic for the first year. There's no way I will tolerate someone taking my rebills under these circumstances.

Agree.

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Lets say rebills didn't exists.

Would affiliates still try to make single sales?

I'm guessing they would and they would be satisfied with that ( not having known about rev share )

That scenario would be what you've described above and it has nothing to do with the program being able to retain its customers.

I'm not bashing the affiliate rev share model. I do think it benefits the affiliate much more than the program. I just don't think someone is being greedy by limiting the number of rebills an affiliate can receive and one year seems fair to me. Whatever the argument is for that would be the same for setting the amount of rev share. 50-50, 60-40, 70-30 or whatever.

I don't have a dog in this fight so I'm looking at this as an outsider as to what makes sense to me and I'm surly open to whatever makes the best sense :)

Got ya. And I don't blame you.

BUT...having said that...what if the current trend continues and sponsor programs continue to shut down because they can't afford to stay open? And you end up with only a handful of sponsors?

Hell, I promote over 400...but maybe 5 of those still convert. Am I going to drop those 5 that make still make a sale? No. If I do, I might as well close up shop. :(

I whole heartily agree that its wrong for a program to change its terms in the middle of rebills or whatever BS they pull however, the op said that he saw the terms prior to signing up as an affiliate and didn't like the terms so he knew in advance what he was getting into.

I'll (if they change it retroactively):

1. Blacklist the company (and all other related companies they own) for life in both adult and mainstream.

2. Stop sending any traffic to them immediately.

There are plenty of small programs out there who will appreciate an affiliate who even sends them a mere 1 new signup a day. I'll support those guys and they won't have any problem paying me my cut for "life". They will be happy to do so. If it gets so bad that there is no one left in the niche who is decent then I abandon the niche (And I've done this before) or open up my own. If adult gets so bad where no one is left and I decide nto to open my own paysites then goodbye adult. I'm not taking a pay cut to give the sponsor more while I generate the same amount of revenue. Especially given the current trends with tracking (cookies) and other issues such as the cross sales. The way I see it they are getting a deal as it is.

Most likely the one referred to by the thread starter.

It's better and more ethical but is still a pay cut for the affiliate who is still generating the same amount of revenue.

You're preaching to the choir here. :)

But to be devil's advocate...in 2006 I had 1.2 million uniques of REAL traffic on my TGP's (no circle jerk shit), today I only have a few thousand (thank you pornhub and others).
So back then I could make a statement like you just did and the programs listened to me.

But now with my pitiful amount of traffic...why should they care if I drop them and blacklist them? Will they really miss my hundreds of hits? :(
Is it even financially worth it to them to pay me at all?

Those are my concerns. As this whole gets deeper and darker...what exactly does the sponsor have to lose from me if they decide that they've paid me well for the original sale already and fuck me out of future rebills?

It's a major concern to me. And even if I put together a coalition of you, me, every affiliate on GFY, plus The Hun, and Freeones...all together we wouldn't have as much traffic as Pornhub. Not to mention Keez Movies, YouPorn, YouJizz, and the thousands of other illegit pirate tubes that have taken traffic and sales from all affiliates AND paysites.

Times are indeed getting desperate. And it's unclear to me that my services as a 100% affiliate are even viable anymore. I'm starting to feel like a blacksmith, or a telephone operator...like my job is becoming obsolete.

robbie there are affiliates who push those traffic numbers out there. they don't go to shows so they don't exist, but they do.

Stuff like a program shutting down an affiliate but keeping their rebills or changing the terms to established rebills would be highly unethical to me.

I think Robbie makes a great point that times are changing and so is the way to do business. Rev share for the life of the rebill is a great deal for the affiliate and there was a time when programs were more than willing to pay it because there was plenty to go around.

The way things are today everyone is looking for ways to economize.

I don't think its greedy for someone to change their business model going forward.

affiliates are fucked up and down, nobody care about it anymore, just a small number of sponsors left to be totally white

I feel the same way sometimes I have to admit it. But still a business is a business whether it generates $700,000 or $35,000 a year. As long as reasonable profit is being made the business is still viable because money is being made. They aren't paying me for nothing as I am sending them people who will buy from them - leads. Without me they wouldn't have as many sales. There is then still value in what I do and I know it despite some trying to change this perception (and often these same people will gain from this change in perception which IMO makes their motives highly suspect).

If they do decide to screw me then they lose future sales and their company is blacklisted. I'm not like most of the others who won't bother to see which other shell companies a sponsor owns. I'll make sure I never touch anything they own again whether it's adult or mainstream. They can burn their bridges if they wish but one day they might need me and you can bet I'll remember being screwed. Hopefully others will do the same. I may not be the hun but I still send joins and generate revenue. No sponsor is committing a charitable act by working with me.

Nobody said they have to "go to shows"

I've been doing this since 1996. And believe me...I knew and know most every guy with a big traffic site. Show me a big traffic site now?

I also own my own affiliate program...saw ALL of our big affiliates drop down their numbers to almost nothing.

I also talk and do business with many other affiliate program owners...same story.

So don't try to give me the magical mystery affiliates out there b.s. I don't believe it because it's NOT true.
They are no more immune to what piracy and the rise in the illegit tube sites have done than anybody else.
I didn't go to any shows from 2002 to 2007 myself. And the only reason I started going again was because of opening CM's paysite. Yet I still did business with everyone and knew of everyone. I had to...it's my job.

Show me somebody out there with big traffic numbers who can push some big sales...Freeones still has some traffic. The Hun still has some traffic. WorldSex and AL4A still have a little bit of traffic (when we owned AL4A it had 1.5 million uniques a day...what does it have now? a couple hundred thousand maybe?)

Nobody can compete with the big pirate tubes. How can they?
Here Mr. Surfer...please watch all these full scenes of your favorite website for FREE.
OR
Here Mr. Surfer...please come to my freesite and look at this gallery and buy a membership
OR
Here Mr. Surfer...please read my oh so interesting blog and buy a membership

You get the idea...trust me, if there were still affiliates out there that had the kind of traffic we did and pushed the sales we did...I'd damn sure know about them. And the industry itself wouldn't be crumbling.

Limiting rebills on revshare? That's bullshit. :2 cents:



See sig for exclusive content, updating sites and TRUE lifetime revshare.

Would I try to make $15 per sale? NO way in fucking hell.

yeah exactly. ive dropped a few sponsors because they dont rebill for shit. when i pick up a new program, I expect that at least 50% rebill and 50% of those rebill again

q f t

Revshare has no time limit!

I was always under the impression that Programs figured out what an average join was worth, and created a PPS model based on what their program could sustain (other than trying to stay competitive with other PPS programs) OR the affiliate could opt for the revshare model, and Both could benefit from the long term membership that the Affiliate sent.

For anyone who thinks that the program is doing the affiliate a favor by giving him lifetime rev-share. I would think that its the programs way of saying thank you for trusting in our ability to attract and retain members, when you could have sent that join elsewhere, when the program assumed little to no risk to procure that member.

Exactly...well not so much a "thank you", but more of an incentive to continue to send them more joins.

And that's where the problem is starting to worsen. When you are a big program with tens of thousands of rebills being paid out on to affiliates who haven't been able to send more than a handful of joins over the last 3 years since their traffic and paysite joins overall have dropped so far because of pirated porn being available everywhere for free.

At that point...I'm seeing more and more people make the business decision to stop the lifetime rebills. It's instantly a huge increase in profit for their bottom line when they are losing money left and right.

Until the overall health of this business is back, I'm afraid it's not gonna get any better for us affiliates or paysite owners.

And for everybody bitching about the possibility of paysites lowering the percentage on us...I'm making more money promoting cam sites now, and they CAN'T pay out 50% or more. I don't see anybody bitching about 20% or 25% on that.

More like affiliates doing big joins rather then big traffic numbers.

They don't go the conventional way and yes they do exsist :thumbsup

out the faggot already!

I hate the fact that our business has come to this... It sucks ass.

If the company ***clearly states*** that rebills are just for 1 year (or whatever length) and that they are not for life, and they do this going forward... Its your decision to do business with them or not.

We should have a full list posted of the Sponsors that are doing this. If they are being upfront about this, there is no reason to hide in the dark-corners.

Things are getting worse- the paradigm shift of any person under 40 is that porn is Free.

People say adapt or die, unfortunately...I have not found a way to adapt...as I am one that is surely dieing.

Affiliate Rule #1: Know who you are doing business with.

stop sending traffic to sponsors and establish your own hubs and paysites

I used to mix a bit of PPS into what I promote, just to keep the payout patterns varied, but I've always promoted mostly revshare. SpookyCash is a revshare program. Today, PPS is probably less than 5% of what I promote, if that. The revshare folks are in business for the long haul, because their business model does not depend on complex business math or fancy footwork.

If an affiliate sends a valuable member, the affiliate should get paid as long as that member rebills. It is the point of revshare and core to the business model, on both the program and affiliate sides of the equation.

<bump for a REAL biz thread>

Well I guess the industry didn't get the memo. If they exist, they sure aren't sending those joins to any of the paysite owners I know. :(

And if there is some new magic way to get lots of new customers to buy a membership without any trickery I'd sure like to know.
Again, I just don't see how ANYBODY has not been affected by what has happened in our business the last 3 years.

If these magical mystery affiliate geniuses are so good now...why weren't they around before the shit hit the fan?

I guess I'm just not savvy enough to know of all these big shots, and apparently most paysites don't know either. I don't know of even one paysite that is doing bigger numbers now than they were a few years ago. But you'd think with these magical affiliates that seem to be able to snap their fingers and get people to join, that the industry would be roaring and everybody would be making killer money and nobody would be getting fired every week and...heh-heh.

I'm sorry, I'm just being stupid. I DO believe in these mysterious genius affiliates who have mind control over human beings and can get them to buy memberships. They probably live with Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny in a big house owned by The Tooth Fairy and Sweet Baby Jesus.

Seriously guys...

revshare stands for revenue sharing. I think the term speaks for itself.

I read that.
I used to make around $6000 a month with Top Bucks as well.
I'm gonna theorize that the person who made $6400 that month probably had a ton of rebills in the mix? And as a good affiliate rep Kristin makes it look nice maybe by not saying that part?

I would also say that when I had a lot of traffic I could have very easily sent 6400 one dollar joins in a month if I had pushed one sponsor really, really hard instead of promoting hundreds of them at once.

I don't see anybody, anywhere doing any kind of numbers like we used to push as an affiliate. And I don't see any of my formerly monster affiliates sending us shit to our paysites either.

I wish I did. But if y'all want to sit around and pretend that it's all good and everything is just fine...I don't know what to tell ya. Keep believing in these super cool affiliates who live secretive lives like they are Michael Jackson and send hundreds and thousands of joins to select paysites that they choose like Gods.

Either way, it ain't making either of us a thin red dime if you believe it or I don't believe it.

They are all on the same internet as you and I. Live in the same world. Have to deal with the same reality.

If I send a thousand REAL surfers who clicked on a link to a paysite and they went through the tour and then did NOT buy...how do these magic affiliates somehow convince their real surfers that the same tour is somehow going to make them buy in droves?

And why is the majority of the industry not named "Manwin" failing if these big mystery whales are out there with their magic powers?

Just to clarify, that $6400 was the commission to one Topbuck's affiliate rep for one month, which translates to 6400 new affiliate sales ($1 per sale commission, rebills not included). According to that thread their other reps have to produce at least 500 new sales each month, so clearly there are some affiliates still producing many sales. I feel you though, my ratios continue to decline across the board.