How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist?
 

I'm curious what you think...

If you believe in Destiny, then you probably believe in past lives and lessons learned, lessons still to be learned.
You can be put here with a "Destiny" - a lesson to be learned... but if you still make the wrong choices (based on things leftover in your 'persona' or 'soul' from past lives), then you don't meet your destiny and you'll have to do it all over again...

Hmm. That was sober. If I were drunk I could probably give you something more flamboyant and interesting, but I don't get drunk. :)

:1orglaugh

According to Google - Google is never wrong...

As it is, we are bound by our own past. At the same time we are free to act as we will. Freedom and bondage seem to coexist in all of us. We are like the driver of a train. We can drive the train to wherever we please (free-will) but our movement is restricted by the tracks (destiny) laid down already. Both free-will and destiny play an important role in every action. Free-will is an independent variable and destiny is dependent and it is binding. The independent element is the purushartha or self-effort. The dependent element is the prarabdha or destiny. We are free to choose our action but every action is also subject to the influence of self-effort and destiny. We should recognize that the consequence of our action depends both on the self-effort and our destiny. Our present destiny or fate is the result of our past actions in the past. Our prarabdha is the sum total of our past purusharthas. Our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort. If our self-efforts in the past have all been positive, our present destiny will be positive. If they have been negative, our destiny will be negative. Our destiny is proportional to our self-efforts.

Read the whole essay here:
http://www.geocities.com/advaitins/LawofKarma.html

Destiny and free wiill,

Like a hand of cards.

Destiny is the hand of cards you are dealt,
free will is the way you play them.

RUSH kicks ass

NZ

I can go with some of that -- but there are flaws. The main flaw is here "our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort" -- you can't have a destiny based on time! As you have said -- destiny is the tracks -- the infinite line of time... Destiny is the now and forever. Your quote starts out ok -- but toward the end it falls apart with an internal conflict. You can't describe destiny in terms of past positive effort and past negative effort -- that's silly. There is only one DESTINY -- it's effortless. Proportional? -- blah -- bullshit. How can you not exert effort on Destiny?

Free will does not exist. Ever heard of the id? :)

Here's an even deeper conundrum which shows that the whole idea of free will is nonsense anyway:

1) Our actions are determined by our brain and nervous system which are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry. These laws are deterministic, so everything we do is determined in the sense that the only way we could possibly do anything other than what we do would be through the existence of a different set of physical conditions both in our bodies and outside them (in the antecedent conditions leading up to our current state).

2) Some people argue from our knowledge of subatomic physics that the aforementioned description is inadequate due to utterly random subatomic events that can have ripple effects in the everyday world of the senses.

So, are our actions determined by inviolable and irrestible physical laws, or are they determined by chaotic random events that break and disrupt these deterministic chains?

And, no matter what the answer, where the HELL is freedom in there?

"With our thoughts we make the world." - The Buddha

A thought is a brain state.

This is what I think... and what I don't think...

Just because you can make a choice -- does not mean that you can life multiple lives. As far as I know I can only experience one universe at a time -- I'm really not away of there being parallel universes... As far as I know, I can only experience one destiny no matter how many choices or how much Will I exert (if Will can be variable). I don't think Free Will can influence Destiny and I don't think Destiny can influence Free Will -- they must be exactly the same thing. If I make a choice -- that is, was, and always has been destined -- yet a choice was still made. When you become aware of this -- you may descibe it as Deja Vu...? Does that mean that we have created the universe by virtue of having a will? The problem with the word "created" is that it suggest there being elapsed time. Because every man and woman has a will -- that makes destiny very complex... full of interference, variants... if agreement and conflict were waves, agreement may be resonation and conflict may be interference... in nature there are variants of resonation -- harmonic approximations of mathematical perfection... a seashell, a flower, a howl in the wind... If destiny is infinite -- then this wave may not only reach from A to B (infinite distance) -- but from A to B to C (all space) -- -- but also to A to B to C to T, always and forever (all space-time).

3) We can exert Will over the chaos, at the subatomic level... perhaps that's where the miracle of the creation of action originates... every action must be created from nothing -- why can't we believe that a Will could be the act of creation.

If followed purely, they would logically cancel out each other. Unless of course, you read "destiny" as "prediction". If so, you can exercise free will but your destiny [ie., the products of your free choices] has been predicted. If this is the case then they can coexist.

Yes, but how can a thought or matter or anything be "un-stated"...

If it is stated, it exists in a state.
If it exists, it is stated in existance.
etc. etc.

free porn for all. that's for sure.

They can't. Free will is an illusion. For there to be free will there must be randomness.

Don't quote Chaos Theory to me - the uncertainty principle says that by observing something, we change it, not that some things can't be predicted. Randomness, also, doesn't exist.

Interestingly, the lack of randomness has a corrollary - with no randomness, there is no infinity, except as an arbitrary mathematical term - therefore, there is no infinite universe.

Anyway, very deep discussion to go into on a board with so many nitwits on it. (Most present company excluded)

Cheers,
Backov

Wow very fucking cool.

...but still you have the "pre" in prediction -- which suggests pre-determination if there is something to predict -- which suggests a knowing in the past -- a knowing "beforehand"... Before what? Before time? Doesn't make sense...

I think the only way to understand Destiny is to describe it as an infinite Now... now is determined. I think the word forever is kindof cool -- does it suggest the "fore" (before) and "ever" (after) as one?

Hmmmm, this reminds me of a lecture during a Physics class I took a long time ago. If I remember correctly, the problem with an "eternal now" is the concept of space. If you are not moving in space, then the "eternal now" is possible. But the moment you start moving, the notion of "time" is introduced since "time" is a measurement of movement in space. The "eternal now" has been splintered between "before" and "after" as measured in space.

I thought ya might call me on this. Unfortunately these debates I had far in the past, and I've forgotten the "proof" as it were, but basically in mathematics Infinity and Randomness are inextricably linked..

Pi is a good example.. It has an unknown amount of numbers after the decimal point. If it's an infinite amount of decimals (ie, the pattern never repeats - it hasn't yet) then it's a true random number generator and proves randomnes. However, for this to be true, the amount of numbers has to be infinite (no repititous pattern)..

Poor explanation, but as I said, I've lost the base reasoning behind it, it was many years ago that I did debate and reflection on this.

Cheers,
Backov

"How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist?"

Thinking feels like "free will" but might not be.

Destiny is a stripper that I think I will feel.

Got a philosophy paper due eh.

Fly do not worry I will help you with your philosophy paper this question is easy.

In Star Wars it was Luke Skywalker's 'destiny' to join his father and rule the galaxy as father and son..However Luke used his 'free will' and kicked the shit and ending up pretty much fucking up galactic domination expansion plans....

Since this is one of the most asked questions in philosophy, naturally I have spend quite a bit of time studying it. Obviously, there is no single proved-to-be-true answer yet, but a lot of interesting attempts have been made.
If I have time today or tomorrow, I'll post a little bit about it, explaining a bit more of the views of Kant, Frankfurt and Dworkins, who have done quite a bit of work showing the two principles might in fact be able to co-exist.

Destiny and Free Will exist as one.

The question is how can Fate and Free Will co-exist?

Destiny is what you grasp with your free will

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I like that one...it goes along the same lines of you creating your own destiny with your free will....although yours is worded better...

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean we can master the subatomic level in any way resembling "control" (and without control, what could "freedom" be freedom to do?), that is absurd, for if subatomic events can be controlled, then they are not random, but random is what they are.

I believe the universe had to "just happen" in order for it to have a beginning, for if something preexisted the Universe (God or whatever), then no beginning really happened, just a change or transformation. A real beginning to the universe would imply that nothing (not even God) existed, not even time itself. Then (whatever that might mean in a state in which there is no time), the universe sprang into existence. At any rate, we'll never have an answer to the riddle of the beginning, so myth might as well do.

Hmmmm Im not sure if there is an ABSOLUTE beginning since Stephen Hawking was saying that there's recent theories of multiple or repeating Big Bangs.......

Time is a function of change (motion or otherwise). Actually, time is an indefinable concept, a given that we need to understand without definition. Also, there's more than one notion of time: physical time is one, psychological time the other. One is a function of physicality (if nothing moves or happens, there is no time), the other a function of perception and attention (when we're bored, time slows down, when something interesting or exciting is going on, time flashes by).

The problem with that is that such a notion is purely theoretical. The Big Bang involved EVERYTHING, so there will be no note in a bottle telling us what happened before The Big Bang. Thus it's kind of nonsensical to even wonder about it.

Okay, this is getting interesting again...

This division between physical or empirical time and psychological or essential time is similar to the old Philsophy 101 question of "If a tree fell in the woods and no one is there to hear it, did it really fall" question.

Applying that rubric, physical time exists if there are measurable or comparable elements to "prove" its existence--this is the Aristotlean school. The emprical Aristotlean would say that since the tree fell without anyone hearing/seeing it...for all intents and purposes it did not fall.

The other side of the equation re psychological time is the Platonists. To them, the IDEA of reality MAKES it real. Hence, if we accept the reality of time ....even if NOTHING is happening, time still exists... it exists in a vacuum ...in an essence. Similar to the tree falling in the forest with no observer. The fact that there is no observer does not destroy the reality of its fall.

If we were to remove this mythical form of "Destiny" you would destroy all of your problems.

According to Webster destiny is:
"That to which any person or thing is destined; predetermined state; condition foreordained by the Divine or by human will; fate; lot; doom."

If you believe that the natural destiny for human life is death, then it is simple to understand that you may experince free will during the course of your life but that your destiny is the grave.

If you believe that each person has a little map of how their lives are predetermined then your basing your argument on the unproven, unreal, and untrue.

There's a really good book I read on Quantum events, random vs pseudorandom, and how the mind works. I think it should answer or point you in the right direction.

The Quantum Brain

the path you choose (free will) leads to your destiny

The question about the falling tree is similar because it depends on how you define "sound." If you define sound as atmospheric waves within certain delimiting frequencies, then of course a falling tree makes a sound. If you define sound as a perception, then it may be that a tree falls making no sound.

Plato divided the world up into two spheres, one unreal and subject to change (and therefor time), the other real and immutable and timeless. Of course, Plato defined reality as timeless because he (being the anal being he was) thought that a world where things happened was dreadfully untidy and a world where everything stayed where it belonged, never changed, never decayed, and never fell out of existence had something seriously wrong with it. So, an imaginary world seemed a much better candidate for Ultimate Reality.

Of course, this runs contrary to the meaning of "reality" most of us use in our everyday lives.

But search as you will, you'll never find that you are free. It's a feeling you have, and you are free (unfettered) to choose what you wish, but can you freely choose what you want or do you HAVE to want it because you are you and given your options, and all things being equal, you'd ALWAYS make that choice?

I don't believe in destiny one bit. Nada. I don't believe that anything is predetermined. How would the Universe act in such a way that there is destiny?

Since I don't believe in a god or any other higher power that argument is already ruled out for me. I don't believe there is a master of us puppets.

Agreed collin.