Minimum wage
 

Was doing some reading this evening and came accross some interesting articles on minimum wage. Never really gave it much thought but here are some snippets from what Ive read:

(quoted from elsewhere)

"When an employer hires a worker, it is because he anticipates that the worker will produce a value that exceeds what he is paying him. For example, if a worker is hired at $5 an hour, the employer anticipates that the worker will contribute a value to the business of, say, $6 an hour. That?s why he hires him.

But what happens if an employer believes that a worker, because of inadequate work experience for example, will produce only $4 in value? Obviously, he won?t hire him if the law requires him to pay $5 because, in his mind, he?ll be losing $1 an hour.

Thus, the law does nothing to help people whose labor is valued by employers at less than the legally established minimum wage. On the contrary, the law actually attacks those prospective workers by denying them the opportunity to work at the lower wage. By locking them out of the labor market, the minimum-wage law prevents those people from grasping the first rung of the economic ladder, where they could gain work skills and learn work ethics that would enable them to keep climbing up the ladder. Consigned to permanent unemployment by the minimum-wage law, those prospective workers are then relegated to government welfare, where the state takes care of them . and, of course, controls them in the name of helping them.

Minimum-wage laws have no place in a free society. Freedom entails the right of people to enter into mutually beneficial exchanges with one another which provide them with the opportunity to improve their economic well-being. Greenspan has it right. It?s time for Americans to recapture their heritage of economic liberty, and a good way to begin is by repealing the minimum wage, a relic of the bankrupt economic philosophy of state control over economic activity. "

and alan greenspan says it best:

"On the issue of the minimum wage, I still hold to what I said previously. I never argued nor would I that in a period of forced draft pressures in the labor market, which is indeed what we have been seeing recently, that you'll find any result from the minimum wage on the issue of employment. Indeed, I think that it is very unlikely when these labor markets are as tight as they are that the minimum wage has a significant effect in preventing people from coming on the lower ends of the economic ladder to get a job.

My concern is when the labor markets begin to weaken that those people who cannot ? are not allowed by law to accept a wage beneath a certain number, can find no job. As a consequence, they do not get on the first rung of the ladder, cannot achieve job skills, cannot achieve the self- esteem that is necessary to move up the ladder, and I do not perceive that the minimum wage is something which is a benevolent force for people in the lower part of our income groups. I frankly think that it is something which deprives them of gaining what they should be obtaining by right, and I do not consider the minimum wage as a positive force in our society. I think it is precisely counterproductive to what you suggest it is trying to do."

something to think about.

interesting perspective....def something to think about

Let's see you work for $4 a hour.

If anyone cant produce 5 bucks an hour, blame the business. A 2 year old can produce 30 bucks an hour working at mcdonalds

$2-3 a day in thailand

gary has a point

But there are many people who would (and do) and I think the point is that often times it provides these people, often immigrants, the ability to enter the job market and obtain the neccessary skills required to participate in a free market.

The minimum wage only establishes a standard that encourages an unmotivated work force. Whereas not having such a law would encourage employee advancement.

If I owned a McDonalds for example, Id be damn sure my minimum wage employees were producing at least what I paid them. This would lock certain groups of workers from ever achieving employment to begin with and also falsy dictates what an employee is actually worth to the business.

Some people work until they die making minimum wage. Doing back-breaking work...& their boss will only pay them minimum wage. It's quite disgusting....

I don't even like to think about the people being preyed upon by slave drivers to work for 5$ an hour.

It takes a sick fuck to pay someone 5 bucks to work in a feild all day.

migrant workers in fields usually get paid per bucket, not what minimum wage dictitates. and yes it's a living when you compare it to the alternatives they're offered.

laise faire baby [sp]

You say that now. But when your weekly grocery bill is doubled, come back and tell us what you think.

It's the classic "you get what you pay for". Anyone running a business will pay their employees what they think they're worth. And yes, sometimes they're paid less. But the employer is willing to risk the shitty performance for low prices.

Jacking up minimum wage to 15$ an hour would be a great way to get rid of all those mexicans flying accross the border. And maybe i wouldn't have to worry about some half-wit spitting in my burger at mcdonalds then either.

I live for the day...that i will pull up to the drivethru & hear a nice intelligent girl say "hello my name is buffy, can i take your order please sir?". Instead of "Yo...you be wantin fries wid dat?" Or "See senior como esta burger?"

Ahhhhh....i can dream.....

Damn straight quiet. Sometimes it's hard to tell if anyone around here actually runs a business, sure doesn't sound like it...

What does it mean?

exactly, and often times these people working the fields actually learn some skills, such as english and use that opportunity to better themselves and become productive members of society.

And lets not kid ourselves, you can't always blame the business. In general, Farms make little or no money and the land is only worked to receive tax breaks, govt grants, and stipens. Farming is one of the most valuable industries we have.

The minimum wage is approximately $3.00 dollars per hour less than it was thirty years ago, taking into account the value of money then and now.

Black slaves learned some english & skills working the fields....guess you can't blame the master? Bullshit...mexicans are the new endentured servants, not saying i truly feel bad for them...they do put a strain on our school systems, government social programs & hospitals.

you are missing the point, minimum wage is what creates the laziness that most americans despise. There is no encouragement for the entry level worker. The EXPECT to be paid a certain ammount no matter what, and that's bullshit

Ok what im saying is....if we jacked it up really high, the only people employers would hire,...would be intelligent decent people.

I say we round up all the ignorant lazy people & shoot them. (minus the retards...they can't help it).

What the fuck have we done with darwins theory of "Natural Selection".....the strongest & smartest survive. Instead the ignorant & weak thrive at the expense of the rest of us.

Ahh it feels good to vent once in awhile.

He spelled it incredibly wrong, although I don't know the correct spelling. It's French. It basically means give business free reign with very little, if any, government at all. Was in place in the United States (and other countries) during the late 1800s, early 1900s until Teddy Roosevelt shut it down.

Had both good and bad points...

If we're talking about legal citizens, the strain created is because the govt caters to their needs. Kinda of the point of the thread. I think Greenspans theory is that if you get rid of the minimum wage, you would also get rid of the strains on our social programs. Now, obviously there are many other factors besides minimum wage, but I think the point he states make since.

Im all for reforming welfare. That system is consistently abused.

The main thing I was trying to point out is we try our best as a society to help to lower class and the systems we create are only abused.

Take your border jumpers who bypass our government completely, work for less than minimum wage. Those peopl have some of the best work ethics on the planet. The are willing to be paid by the bushel, so they of course pick as many bushels as possible

who's going to scrub our toilets, cut our lawns, clean our dishes, serve us our food, dig our ditches.....

not that far off: Laize Faire (missing some accents) apparently is the correct spelling - from one of my employee's who's quebecois. he's not even 100% sure though lol.

more from greenspan:

If you ever come accross him on tv, he is hillarious to watch

I agree to get rid of minimum wage, If there is some stupid bastard who will work for 2 or 3 $ an hour then hire him

Think about the standard of living at $5.15 an hour. It fucking sucks, that is your motivation. If they are happy in the trailer park them fuck them.

Ok, looks like my perceived spelling of it was incredibly off. :)

It's "laizzes-faire".

actually, it's "Laizzes-faire"

fucking french:glugglug

edited: didn't see joe's response

laissez-faire ~ "let them do (whatever they want)"

Thanks. That's one of those terms that I've heard all of my life and never knew what it meant. Had I bothered to check, I would have found it in the English dictionary. ;)

red white and blue?

cool. haha.

I thought it was just this thread, was going to recruit massivcecock over here for some conspiracy theory

at min wage you'll barely be able to get by, anything lower and how are you gonna live?

When Ronald Reagan was the Pres he wanted to eliminate the minimum wage, saying that having a job at some pay is better than having a job at no pay. I don't know about you but it is bad enough to starve, let alone having to work while you are starving. One person can barely survive off of the current minimum wage and will usually have to room with one or more people in order to do that. As I stated above the current minimum wage in real value is about $3.00 per hour less than it was about thirty or so years ago.

Sanders: And you would allow employers to pay workers today $2 an hour if the circumstances provided that?


Greenspan: The problem is that they will not be paying $2 an hour because they won't be able to get people.

what a crap


Min wage exists in order to avoid examples of people being in difficult position and have to work for $1-2/hour. It has to do with the protection of the employee and it's sure that many of the companies if these law wouldnt exist, would pay less than the min wage for various tasks. Why? Because they'll always be people that will need this small amount of money and won't qualify for a better work.

Allen Greenspan is the man.

Minimum wage is a load of shit that does nothing but cause inflation. You could set the minimum wage at $100/hour and there would still be poor people.

minimum wage is what creates the laziness...

Yes that 206 bucks BEFORE taxes surely pays all the bills and the maid so they can laze about eh? Nevermind that minimum wage workers either, work 4 of those jobs, or are more apt to dip in to the till or are getting YOUR tax dollars to help them survive.

I dare ANY of you to try to live on that mighty 618 bucks per month at min. wage. (Going on that last I knew it was a large $5.15 per hour & minus a basic tax rate)

Greenspan can say all he wants about that sort of thing considering he is a rich man and never will go without.

Sure do away with the law. And when the section 8 housing goes in across the street to house YOUR toilet scrubbers, yard cutters etc and gets paid for with YOUR increased taxes... Let's not hear a peep out of you.

Nevermind adding a precedent of putting a 'toggle' on a law. Toggle on (we are at war), toggle off (war over) How LONG do you think before that toggle would be applied to other laws?? Judge in bad mood (toggle ON - speeder gets 10 yrs) (*toggle off, Awwww he didn't MEAN to shoot the guy 47 times - 6 months)

Yes those are extreme comparisons. But aren't we guarenteed the right to live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? You can't even survive on that 5.15 if you are alone. So repeal away.

YOU will be crying over the tax increases that hit YOU within a year or two. :Graucho

Exactly, and minimum wage prevents these low skilled workers from ever becoming legally employed and gaining the skills necessary to increase their income. You made Greenspans point very well.

Increasing the wage would further alienate un-skilled workers because no business owner in their right mind would gainfully employ anyone unless the value of their work made them money.

We live in a free market and nobody would be forced to work for such a low wage. The market for these workers would be more competitive. Also, job value and employee retention would increase becaus you wouldn't have our current situation where minimum wage workers do not value their jobs. Anyone can quit mcdonalds and go to burgerking and get paid exactly the same ammount of money. Minimum wage offers employees no incentive to enhance their job skills, and prevents workers valued below this wage from getting a job in the first place.

And lets take the example of a mexican speaking no english, who comes to our country. Legally or not he is hear to make a living and where does he end up? Well where I leave its usually bussing tables for 3 bucks an hour + tips, all under the table. Meanwhile, he is enhancing his skills, picking up english, and will hopefully make something of himself.

This is far better than some lazt fuck wheening off our welfare system because he can't find a job or has no desire to look because he knows he won't be hired.

That is all fine and good as long as you are happy to pay ~$15.00 for that burger.. Secondly, if you think raising the minimum wage will keep them out, then how will raising it be an incentive to stay away? As for the half wits that spit in your burger... they will still do that.