OK, since it is late, and I am doing nothing but watch my computer process stuff, let me rant more.

I hate the concept of minimum wage. Why should someone force me to pay someone more than they are worth? Just plain bad business.

Minimum wage insures inflation. You raise it and overall prices climb.

It drives business out of the country. Cant afford to pay a union worker $18.00 to put little plastic buttons on keyboards? Why not look to Mexico or Asia?

If you are willing to work for crap wages, then you are willing to work for crap wages. If you want to earn more you will find a way to do it.

This is supposedly a capitalistic free market economy (NOT!!) If you can not bring to the bargaining table a set of skills and knowledge that make you worth something, then expect to get paid nothing. Why do I sit here and work on web sites? Because my income is directly related to my skills (and some luck)
The better I get at marketing, promotion, and so on, the more money I make.

Long live the capitalist pigs.!!!!

:thumbsup

Unions are and began as a legal form of organized crime

Just like government! :thumbsup

Finally !!! :thumbsup

:eek2 OMG !! Joe Sixpack said something I agree with ,:thumbsup

let them eat cake
:eatmouse


heads are rolling, let's go bowling
with Marie Antoinette's....head

good post, interesting stuff. I remember my mates all getting jobs in maccas, starting at like 4-5AUD/hour.

of course, the opportunities after some years working at Mcdonalds are innumerable and the skills gained remarkable.

The funniest of all is that many of the current adult webmasters had works before with the min wage. I'm wondering if they would like the idea of lower wage back then.

Funny stuff how everyone agrees and yet the wage restrictions exist. They must have some stupid fucks making the decisions there ;)

I will not pay over minimum wage ever..
as long as I get good workers for cheap, why pay more.
I personally like my money, I don't wanna give it away.

Cool article.

Not everyone agrees. Lots of people actually think a minimum wage does good for people. They don't understand how economies work and they're thinking with their hearts and not their heads.

if a business can't make money on top of paying someone a wage that is below the official poverty line then they shouldn't be employing people.
minimum wage jobs are minimum wage for a reason, there are only so many way to turn on a fry-o-lator that a dollar either way per hour isn't going to provide the stimulous to "learn the skills" to flick the switch on faster.. just give a large company with nice profits even larger ones...
minimum wage has nothing to do with moving jobs off-shore. Paying people even 50c an hour STILL isn't going to be able to compete with outsourcing to indonesia..

Indeed, i think we should put a stop to the insurance of employees too, because that's how economies work better.

I recently let go of an employee (Actualy yesterday) who was making beyond minimum wage. 62k per year with incentives to be exact and he was a lazy fucker that didn't even merit minimum wage.

He had skills but his ethics were something less than desirable.

How would not providing insurance for employees help the economy?

Providing insurance isn't a requirement either. It's a benefit.

If setting a minimum wage helps so much, why not just set it at $100/hour and make everyone wealthy? Then no one would be poor.

Prevent poor people....set minimum wage at $100/hour today!

the minimum wage isn't to make people wealthy.. it's to make them not poor enough to break into my house and hock my VCR

How so?

The more you raise minimum wage, the more prices go up to compensate for it. The people at the bottom are still at the bottom. If minimum wage is $1 or $1000 per hour, the people making minimum wage will still be in the same exact situation, and be able to afford the same exact stuff.

Let's say you own a company. You employee people paying them $5/hour and you sell your product at $10. If I suddenly tell you you have to pay your people $6.00/hour what happens to the price of your product? Are you going to eat the loss or pass it on? Can anyone afford more than they could before?

You're not the only company affected. Grocery stores, gas stations, McDonalds, etc are all affected, so everyone has to raise prices. Now the companies higher up the food ladder have to raise their pay and prices, too, so their people have the same purchasing power as they did before, and now EVERYTHING costs more.

Keep raising minimum wage...it's a great way to accomplish nothing except inflation.

The decision makers may have other reasons than those based on economic efficiency.

Honestly, if you only built an economy to be as efficient as possible, you would then kill all the people who retire or cannot work and are thus unproductive.

Minimum wages exist to protect justice between the employee and employer.

ps. I'm not defending minimum wages or anything, just wanted to mention why they exist.

On one hand, the economist in me sees the point in getting rid of minumum wage. But, only if workers are paid what they are worth.

However, thats not the case. Im a hospitality major, I can get 8-10 bucks an hour, standing at the front desk (semi stressful, but cushy.) However, the maids that are doing back breaking work, cleaning up shit that no one else would touch (we had a supervisor that had to clean a room stained in blood) and they get paid 5.15. Hell, the Wendy's near me hires at 8 bucks an hour, for fry cook!

Its employers that refuse to pay what workers are worth that makes minumum wage where it is. If they could get away with paying those maids 3 bucks an hour they would. These people often have to work several jobs in order to have enough money to survive. How many of yall could survive with 4 kids at 15k a year? (Poverty line) Its a creul joke that these people often have the best work ethics, and deserve more.

On the other hand, raising the minumum wage will cause higher inflation, and unemployment. A struggling business might hire someone at 5.15, that they couldnt afford at 6 bucks. but, if the business cant pay people what they are worth, then they shouldnt hire them.

Wages aren't based on social worth. They're based on supply and demand. There are more people who can and will do the maids job than can do your job.

Should people making $15k a year, really have 4 kids? Part of having kids is being able to take care of them. If you're making $15k a year, you should know that you can barely take care of yourself, much less than 1, 2 or even 4 kids.

Amazing, and often hilarious, ignorance in this thread.

I never said that it got people off the bottom.. yes increases will mean they can buy the same shit.. the minimum wage earners will ALWAYS be on the bottom.... it's not about making them "rich or "well off" it's about not making them any worse off
whats not being taken into account is that the minimum wage HAS to be increased from time to time just to KEEP them at the same level.. there are many other factors other than the minimum wage that affect the inflation rate - and a 10% rise in the minimum wage DOES NOT mean a direct 10% rise in inflation. Of course it adds to inflation.. but NOT IN THE SAME PROPORTION.

the minimum wage has DECREASED in real terms over the past ten years... what you're calling increases aren't even STASIS.

if the minimum wage ISNT increased for 5 years, INFLATION STILL OCCURS.. it isn't either a standstill or a merry-go-round.

Why do i get the feeling i won't be hearing many people complaining about tax cuts because they are also a cause of inflation?
why is the inflationary effect of tax cuts somehow better than the inflationary effect of trying to peg the minimum wage to the poverty line?

and even if it wasn't whats so bad about an inflation rate that is in a small part affected by the poverty line?

I'm a libertarian if you haven't figured that out from my posts. And yes, I agree that the minimum wage should be abolished. What we have in the US currently is frustrating. The people who's labor is valued less than the minimum wage are reduced to either welfare, illegal activities, or dependence on private sources [i.e, family]. One part of India is a good example of the effect of getting rid of the minimum wage--in this province, there is little to no unemployment because anyone who wants a job can get one. Sure it may not pay much at first but it does give people a chance to get experience and move up.

The best form of welfare, truly, is a job.

Fine. But the problem identified by the original post was that the minimum wage may be an "artificial price" for labor. It should be markets that decide how much labor is worth. It also soaks up excess labor. Maximum employment and...as experience rises... higher wages since the employers will have to compete for workers with higher experience levels.

It all depends on a person's skill, experience, and education level. Abolishing the minimum wage actually tends to reduce inflation, increase employment, and [based on economic trends that correlate high employment with lower crime] reduce crime.

Exactly. or $5-8 a day in the Philippines. In the Philippines, you can get a college educated English speaking hard working person for less than $100 a month.

The only drawback with relocating operations overseas is that, depending on the country you're moving to, employees have lower productivity rates, communications issues, and infrastructure issues. Also, Im not sure about thailand, but in the Philippines and Latin America, there's lots of holidays and feast days that cut into productivity.

Other than that, if wages and schedules are structured right, you can probably explode your current earnings by having more hands and brains to help you at a fraction of the cost.

BTW, congrats on the move to Thailand! Good looking out!

I completely agree with you, Puremeds. Unfortunately, Big Labor and the Democratic Party in the US has made the minimum wage one of the Sacred Cows of the modern Welfare state.

There is a state in India, I forgot the name, that eliminated the minimum wage and basically ensured employment for everyone.
There is also a logical trap in some critics' thinking that eliminating the minimum wage will result in poverty--this may be true in the real short term but as experience level increases, employers start outbidding each other for the labor pool with a certain skill level.

They still make much more money than they did in Central America under a near slave like Campesino or Latifundio system.

"Laissez faire" French term that refers to a "hands off" government policy when it comes to business. Less regulations and less government interference. It has its limits but its right on when it comes to the minimum wage.

That's not true. If you increase the BOTTOM wage up, then the MIDDLE and HIGHER wages will demand to be increased as well. This is one of the classic arguments AGAINST minimum wage--its inflationary effect on the rest of the labor economy.

Frank, being a Libertarian it makes sense that you would be dead-set against the concept of socialized medicine. This is a topic that interests me because here in Australia (and Canada it seems) it appears to be quite a success and extraordinarily popular with the citizens.

Would like to hear your thoughts.

You are so FUCKING RIGHT ON. The Government CANNOT eliminate poverty, there will always be a bottom. Why not modify the system so that it promotes the right values [ie., working, showing up on time, taking care of your family, being responsible] instead of coddling people into dependence [ie., you're a victim, you're not responsible, etc].

Frank you seem to be familiar with this stuff.
So I assume you are also familiar with

- first best and second best. While the first best option is ideal in a perfect world, labor market is not perfect and thus the first best conditions don't apply.
Laissez faire wouldn't necessarily provide better efficiency in an imperfect market

- asymmetric information. Employer and employee do not have same access to information. Sometimes employee is willing to take any job and there's a chance for "exploitation". Employee isn't aware of his true value, while the employer is (=asymmetric information)

Guess my point is, employees who work somewhere near the minimum wage, are not capable of independently looking out for their own intrests, thus the regulation

What is your opinion on the government letting the children of poor people starve to death (literally) in the streets in the name of promoting "the right values"?

Joe, most of the reasons behind the high price of medical care is supply. The demand is always there and its rise can be traced as demographics change [ie., Baby Boomers going into middle age and needing geriatric care]. I don't wish to be simplistic but the supply can be boiled down to 1) supply of medical personnel and facilities and 2) pharmaceutical supply.

In order to replicate the "success" of socialized medicine within a free market forum, 2 things come to mind [although Im sure there are others that need to happen] 1) to loosen the supply of pharmaceutical products -- shorten the patent protection of drugs and medical devices, this will unleash generic products sooner 2)loosen regulations re the formation of HMO's and patients'
collectives

Bravo... There will always be winners and there will always be losers. If you took everyone's money and property away today and spread it out evenly, ten years from now the rich would be rich again and the poor would be poor again. I'm sure there would be a few exceptions but it would all work out like that again with a few people controlling the bulk of the wealth.

This is what PRIVATE charities are for. You seem to ready to embrace Big Government when you fail to realize that you have family,friends, neighbors, and charitable organizations [churches, synagogues, etc] that will step up to keep you from falling. Note that UNLIKE government assistance, privarte assistance has a short duration--thereby forcing you to pickup the "right values" [ie., look for a job, stay on the job, get an apartment, etc].

So your conclusion is: Government knows best?

Those factors you've mentioned are true. I have to concede that--anyone who's Econonomics 101 and even Philosophy [re "reality in a vacuum" analysis] have to concede those. But what you've failed to mention also is the process of "Information Creep" --ie., sure the employer has most of the information at first but unless they are acting as a cabal, information begins to seep out gradually and individuals start negotiating higher wages. Others see this and begin to demand the same.

Also there is an equilibrium in play here--if an employer wants to retain his employees since other employers are competing for this particular labor, he may "jump the trigger" in paying over the "prevailing" rate. This also spreads to other employees.