heh... chargebacks... don't come around no more!
 

What you can do when you control your own destiny:

http://www.judoporn.com/images/9-14amexscreen.jpg

Merchant account, proper documentation, common sense.

So you dispute them? Show logins and usage?

I've question for everyone, including you @beaner.

-Customer calls the bank and wants a refund (He says my cousin/son bought it, it's an unauthorized expense !!! )
-Bank contacts you and asks the documents
-You give them the proper documents (bill, IP logins, detailed info) and the bank closes the dispute in your favor, that's it ?

Then having a merchant account is a must if you have a decent volume.

Nice to see. I would guess most third party billers just grant a refund, about 0.3247 seconds after the person says "uhh I didn't sign up for that"

That's great!

Just a heads up... if you're going to use infinite scroll then you cannot have a footer in your site.

Edit: Also, I am not too sure if surfers know what "sponsor content" is.

Each company should do their own cost-benefit analysis to see if it is more trouble than its worth.

IPSPs have to worry about the CB ratio for the entire portfolio, which is why they are generous with the refunds.

That's really the answer right there :thumbsup For me, third party saves me a lot of time.

So who is merchant in this case?

Understood about instant refunds (I wandered off the track a little), but from what I understand most IPSPs won't let their clients contest chargebacks. I don't get this.

I do both mainstream and adult. The chart was an amex chargeback reversal from last week from mainstream sites. Judo is not on my adult merchant account yet though it is active and setting it all up now.

What is interesting is I have responded to them before, many times, and it did not go in my favor. The cases in screenshot customer claimed

1: Did not recognize charge
2: Customer claimed to cancel

Now I used to just respond saying, customer signed up on so and so date, IP and email this, and we received no request for cancellation. Then it would come back again saying, customer still claims they canceled.

#1 case was easy: Customer called to cancel and was canceled, with email confirmation sent to him regarding cancel. 5 months later he tried to get his money back. I faxed the copy of the email cancellation confirmation... case closed.

#2 case is what I usually lost. Now I mention all cancellations are documented and an email generated. Whether phone call cancellation or email cancellation. It is possible we missed request and please ask customer to provide documentation of email request to cancel, or the cancellation email confirmation sent by us, or a phone log showing call to our number and we are more then happy to refund the charges from date of cancellation due to our errors.
Of course, customer have no records and the case was closed.

Now one thing though all of this is not as simple as it seems. Both mainstream and adult the gateway is handling Visa and Mastercard *INQUIRIES*. Then they are charging for each of those *inquiries*, so depending on what you have worked out... it may not even be a good idea to try and reverse them. Unless of course you need to keep your chargeback ratio lower.

None of this is possible going through a third party though. Yes, they will refund in a nano second. They must do it.

I've been dabbling in direct processing for 3 years now. The more I learn, the more I tell myself why go through all these outside services to simply collect some cash?

If I want to charge subscriptions to sites, do I really need a gateway like authorize.net to handle all of that? I'm just collecting cards, storing securely, passing to bank for approval, and then if recurring, handling that as well.

That is what i'm working on now... it's not for everyone and may seem complicated. I'm not sure, time will tell. But, my point is, lots of options out there.

I got the status alert email and was like shit, more chargebacks. :Oh crap Logged in and realized they were all closed cases in my favor! :thumbsup

So this was mainstream and not adult? Share your adult experiences, that would be more beneficial to the readers here.

There is no difference, that is the point I am making.

Adult has cornered the market as third party billing services required. Everyone says customer is used to ccbill, used to epoch, whatever.

Nobody is paying 15% except adult. And it is not because everything is high risk, it is because for some reason adult is the only market that has convinced the majority that third party, affiliate tracking, all must be handled by someone else.

I will share the adult results when I have the stats. It's no different. My hurdle is convincing the surfer that this new credit card page they see is legit... and I have some great resources available, one of them being websitesecure.org

I'm also going to add something:

I could have hosted my forms on CCBill if I wanted. Not the CCBill you know, the direct merchant CCBill and fees are around 5.5% or so. May be higher, maybe lower... I guarentee you 99% of the people have no idea that option exists.

But I want to bypass the entire operation. I've already beta tested one round, now waiting for a few programming items, a slight modification, and anticipate about a week to set it live again.

I'm not talking about third-party processors. I'm talking about merchant account to merchant account. Show us the same success with your adult merchant account that you have with your mainstream merchant account.

I will:

Here's a tip for you. If you are a ccbill client paying 15%.

The *only* downside is you have a ccbill form with their requirements and look, placement of text, etc. and their scrub settings.

Ok here we go:

Let's say you are paying 15% currently.

Go to ecsuites, ask them for merchant account. Say you want to handle affiliates and customer support. You want the credit card form to be on their servers, just like CCBill is.

Contact Marco at Sliiing. Ask for an account.

Let's say ecsuites get's you in at 5.5% (that is very doable), sliiing at $50/month. If you are billing 10K per month you just saved 9% yearly. Let's knock it down to 8% to be conservative with whatever fees I'm forgetting about.

That's doing hardly any additional work. You need to pick up the phone once in a while, respond to chargebacks if it is justifed. Send affiliates money once or twice a month and you can send sliiing it in bulk and they will cut the checks if you want.

8% more money, per year, in your pocket, doing hardly any more work. Is it really that hard to provide customer service? Send some money?

I'm not doing it that way, but I could have, and the savings would be immediate.

The above is an example that would compare an adult merchant account to a mainstream merchant account with the forms that everyone are comfortable with and the merchant just doing what merchants should be doing.

Beaner,

If I understand your statement correctly here, you want to become your own payment gateway?

I am sure you realize, to get a relationship with Visa and MasterCard you need to become a Member Service Provider (MSP) and Independent Sales Organization (ISO).
This costs about $10,000+ up front and then $5,000+ a year if you are approved. A background check and review is involved. This is done by your sponsoring bank, which you also have to find.

Then you have to become PCI DSS compliant (costs vary)
You have to get certified by the processing networks
You have to store the data for many years
Some other things, although minor, need to be taken into consideration. SSL - ECI Compliance, and anti fraud tools.


Probably not as easy as one might think!

:2 cents:

Why not? One of our sites uses infinite scroll (to a degree) and we have a footer..

I am very interested in pursuing gateway/billing services as a company. Those fees you quoted I have not looked into all of them, but they seem very reasonable if starting a billing service.

1 step at a time though...

I am setting up billing to show that high risk, 15%, is not required. I believe some pretty slick individuals have cornered the market and convinced the majority that those who process must pay 15%.

I will quote my own message... just because:

"I will:

Here's a tip for you. If you are a ccbill client paying 15%.

The *only* downside is you have a ccbill form with their requirements and look, placement of text, etc. and their scrub settings.

Ok here we go:

Let's say you are paying 15% currently.

Go to ecsuites, ask them for merchant account. Say you want to handle affiliates and customer support. You want the credit card form to be on their servers, just like CCBill is.

Contact Marco at Sliiing. Ask for an account.

Let's say ecsuites get's you in at 5.5% (that is very doable), sliiing at $50/month. If you are billing 10K per month you just saved 9% yearly. Let's knock it down to 8% to be conservative with whatever fees I'm forgetting about.

That's doing hardly any additional work. You need to pick up the phone once in a while, respond to chargebacks if it is justifed. Send affiliates money once or twice a month and you can send sliiing it in bulk and they will cut the checks if you want.

8% more money, per year, in your pocket, doing hardly any more work. Is it really that hard to provide customer service? Send some money?

I'm not doing it that way, but I could have, and the savings would be immediate.

The above is an example that would compare an adult merchant account to a mainstream merchant account with the forms that everyone are comfortable with and the merchant just doing what merchants should be doing."

business thread bump.

I am a straight shooter. I renig what I said above and anyone interested in why can email me or PM me. Sorry for giving information that I believed to be 100% accurate. It has to do with your ecsuites %... sliiing is awesome, the percent I believed to be true... is not.

some nice info here about cc

It's really not. I fought AMEX chargebacks and they do not nickle and dime.

Gateways, however, do. The only thing positive I can say from creating an adult merchant account is you can increase your revenue...

4X

I'm not shitting you... however, you are going to get nickled and dimed BIG time.

I'm so fed up I feel like kicking myself in the nuts. Next step for beaner is creating my own gateway and working direct with banks. Fucking adult needs something big time... all of you are getting screwed left and right and have no idea you are. :warning

4X.... turned 4X more sales... started on the 3rd of this month. Read my post above as well.

this looks pretty interesting, he showed me the stats at the gateway and i can confirm the numbers - it did seem to increase sales

thank you... you are one of 3 people privy to the data. Well maybe a couple others as well.

I'm not sure what in the hell I am going to do... but I will tell you with 100% accuracy that numbers do not lie. You can never fight numbers, dispute them with any success... they are, what they are.

Any programs wanna increase income 4 fold... hit me up.

WOW that is most impressive to hear! I have to admit it sounds pretty hard to believe but coming from you I have no reason to doubt what you say.

Just curious are you sure its not from new affiliates or change in traffic giving you 4 x sales?

Thats a pretty hefty increase in conversions without adding new traffic, or new affiliates..WOW!

Thanks for sharing!

Oh yeah and one other thing....

1st they call you looney and psycho

2nd they call you crazy conspiracy theorist

3rd you end up winning and having the last laugh

How you Like me now?

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I never knew something like this existed. This is a very useful thread. Congratulations on your chargeback wins as well!

You mentioned "Send affiliates money once or twice a month and you can send sliiing it in bulk and they will cut the checks if you want." but...
CCBill Merchant program - are you able to allow CCBill affiliates like you do when you're paying the 15%? Can affiliates 'merge' accounts with yours? And can CCBill send checks for you?

Very interesting thread, yet it still seems like quite a bit of extra work and responsibility for a paysite owner.

Read the visa contract. Believe it or not you are still responsible.

Very often yes. The card associations are changing rules to make it easier for merchants to prove the charge was a good one. We have merchants that have been fighting disputes for years. You can also prove a refund was done to avoid a chargeback and the card associations are now enforcing rules to make a customer cancel their card when the fraud is believed to be real.

Having a merchant account is a bit more work for a site owner. However, the savings, control and flexibility when using the right gateway and company behind it is well worth it.


Mitch

I switched from CCbill to My own merchant accounts via Netbilling and I did not see any big savings in terms of fees, some maybe but it's not as radical as the sales pitch will make it seem.

What I did see was a huge increase in sales and recurring billing, I was able to personally shape the fraud scrub the way I found would most effectively reduce fraud while minimizing false flags and that took my total income through the roof.

My question for Beaner is: my understanding is that the chargeback fees ($25 in my case) I have been told are not refundable even if I win a dispute. With that in mind the time it takes me to track down IP logs, userlogs, print everything, fill out the form and then fax them all is not usually worth the money, especially factoring in the percentage of rulings that go in my favor. I also understand that chargeback reversals do not reduce your disputed transaction count with card associations.

For that reason I have personally decided to file all my chargeback notifications under "recycling". Is this not the case with you?

What sliiing does is simply a NATS like feature. It tracks sales from any biller that the owner programs into it. It also takes all ccbill affiliates and tracks them, without affiliate needing to swap links... i.e. a NATS link for example. That is one of the biggest advantages of sliiing... you don't need to change everything.
Yes, if you were to still use ccbill... they would pay affiliates still. Just you would have an admin panel to check stats in sliiing as well.
Everyone has always said cascade this, cascade that. You are leaving money on the table if you don't... bullshit! You are leaving money on the table if you don't have your own merchant account.

I reniged on the percentage held in my example... it is higher, and I do not recommend ecsuites merchant account where they host join form. The percent savings is not justified for the work put into it.

The most important thing to do is to control your join forms and scrub. The only way for you to do that is to have a merchant account in which you host the join forms. And when you log into your gateway... you should have *scrub* settings in which you can choose how to scrub. Between controlling the look, flow, placement of text, etc. on your join forms is where you will see the results.

It is a guided tour you are taking a surfer up until they whip out their credit card. Every step of that tour has to be spot on.

These number increase i'm talking about are huge if done properly. Really... massive!

Thank you for being a NETbilling merchant. An increase in sales and recurring = more profits = savings, right?

Once you get a form letter together and lookup the ip and signup info to show the bank, it can certainly be worth the extra time to save a chargeback and with the newer rules, he associations (especially Mastercard) are working to help reduce friendly fraud. It's up to you though.

The gateways are charging that $25... the OP screenshot was AMEX. They do not charge per inquiry. AMEX also does not process adult... so adult is screwed in that respect.

But commonly... you can fight a chargeback and still come out ahead. You just need to make sure the gateway doesn't then take another $25 by fighting it, totalling $50 in fees.

So the answer is in a gateway that does not charge those fees... and none currently exist. It is a void that needs to be filled.

But Beaner, I am confused about a few things I hear in adult around here....

did you have to have extra traffic, and affiliates to increase your sales and conversions?

Did you increase conversions and sales dramatically and literally overnight by dropping 3rd party billers?

There must be something I am not connecting or comprehending, because surely you would not be suggesting that there is a possibility that some who have gone out of business using 3rd party billing may not have had to go out of business?

Can you clarify just a bit about whether you had increase in traffic and affiliates first, or did you just quadruple sales by changing a biller?

That just seems so hard to believe?

Why would 3rd party billing only give you 20% of the revenue and sales you are capable of making?

This is just not making sense? It seems that maybe the industry is not so dead, but maybe somebody has some explaining to do?

I don't know what u say pornmasta? Signupdamnit?,Peabrainy?

Has Beaner revolutionized the industry with a cure for middlemenitis?

Hey and Beaner one further question for ya??

Do you think others should and *WOULD* be kicking them selves if they actually knew what you knew?

Those comments were directed towards you not beaner :2 cents:

You know the answer to those questions :thumbsup

If you are billing through a third party, you are billing with settings dictated by the overall performance of that third party. So you already are losing, unless you are one of the few causing the damage. But the few ruins it for the masses... therefore scrubs not necessary on your own account, exist.

It's just not that though... it is those damn forms. They must cater to your site. It is your site you are selling and you should be able to word the form any which way you want (as long as they are presented so a reasonable person could understand what they are signing up for). The words, placement of text, images used, etc. etc.