Children are learning freedom of speech doesn't exist.
 

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Southwest....ap/index.html

Why don't we all just accept that real freedom of speech is just never going to happen.

Highschool students have never had freedom of speech in the USA. They are not adults and do not have all of the rights provided to adults by our constitution.

I thought you knew so much about the United States from your various stints here and your American wife?

Guess not.

Go worry about Australia. Surely there must be something to bitch about in your neck of the woods. Maybe you can go on a crusade over Australia's stance on porn?

That's not right. You don't have to be an adult to have freedom of speech. However, there are places where you give up some freedoms, in theory to protect others.

Also, remember, in the US, the First Ammendment only covers what laws can be passed. Freedom of Speech is not guaranteed by the Constitution, only that the government can't create laws to take it away.

I'll bitch about what I like, and I don't like hypocrisy.

So quit your fucking whining and either shut the fuck up or make a point.

Freedom of expression and freedom of expression without consequences are two different things.

I'm glad I'm not in school during this shit. This is something I wouldn't back down on.

You sure told me.

Bad American! Bad American!

democracy at its best! :thumbsup

Student speech has always been supervised/suppressed and still is.

Ok, so, let's talk about Freedom of Speech in schools for a second...

So I'm 16, a sophomore in high school, and I'm very religious. Catholic, to be exact. I'm on this mission to convert as many people over to Catholicism as I can. I figure, hey, hundreds of people walk through the halls at school daily, I'm going to take advantage of that.

I make several huge posters. Saying things like "Jesus loves you", "God is your Father", and "Find the light, converts to Catholicism". I hang these up all over school, especially the high traffic hallways.

You guys have no problem with this?

This was a legitimate school project. It was a classroom display.

Also, your hypothetical violates your constitutional separation of church and state.

No it doesn't.

The separation of church and state is referencing the state endorsing the church. The state wouldn't be endorsing anything. I would. And I have that Freedom of Speech to do so.

The school board decides what is legitimate in each individual school district in this country. And there is great variance in the thousands of districts.

I don't think your hypothetical is comparable or appropriate. You are talking about putting posters in the school halls. I don't think anti-war or pro-war posters or any fucking posters for that matter should be lining the school corridors - obviously that's not practical - but as you have clearly failed to grasp (or just choosing to ignore) this was a legitimate school project and the artwork was displayed in the classroom.

Surely you can see the difference.

Blame it on the lawyers that have successfully sued school boards over the display of things which offend others. The school boards are all on the tightest budgets ever and can't afford any more million dollar settlements. Its all about money as usual.

No. I'm not talking about posters. I'm talking about the bare basics of this thread, which is Freedom of Speech. Those are the fundamentals we're talking about here.

I don't even agree with what they did, but they are allowed to do that. Schools can't even make Halloween or Christmas pictures anymore due to Freedom of Speech by minority groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses. The school board has the right to say what is and isn't acceptable.

Exactly. It comes down to the minority groups not liking this or that. Check my last post.

"Rigo Chavez, a spokesman for the school district, said the teachers had been placed on paid administrative leave "in connection with the district's policy on the presentation of controversial issues."

Very sad. No room for an open mind in your education system it seems.

Why would I care? I don't know what school you went to but there were people from several religions or no religion at all at my school. I would fight for your right to hang up a poster saying Catholics are cool the same way I would for someone making a poster against the war. If my school was the way schools are now I wouldn't have made it to graduation. This shit is just fucking silly.

Tell you how bad it is Joe. My kid is in elementary school and they sent out a notice not to have your kids wear any shirts to school with graphics or text related to war or peace issues which might offend other classmates.

Now we're talking 2nd grade here, and that is just really scary that this is an issue at that level.

Just a shame that there seems to be no room or tolerance for dissent at any level in the US. And I thought you were supposed to be the home of freedom of speech.

Dissent seems to be equated with being anti-American.... or in the case of this war, siding with terrorists.

Hope things change for the better over there. Repression of ideas is an ugly thing.

There's free speech and appropriate places to express it.

School may or may not be one of them.

I do not necessarily agree with what's going on in this article, but if all the school project did was to disrupt classes and take away from what they are established to do..teach...then I say put it away.

Your lack of basic comprehension skills is laughable...I'm sure you chalk it up to the stellar australian educational system.

Do you not understand it's both sides that are being affected, those for the war, and those against...it's not about shutting up the dissenters, it's just about keeping peace in a place where their job is to just teach, and for kids to learn.

No..it's NO ROOM FOR MORE VIOLENCE IN OUR SCHOOLS.

This war is causing people on both sides of the issue to act out in ways they might not normally act out in.

Who's to say that someone's not going to pick up a gun and go shoot the Afghani kid who's against the war...or who's to say that someone against the war might start a fight in the hallway with someone who is for the war...the list goes on.

So that's why they have a policy on "controversial issues."

I'd say it's your basic comprehension skills that are laughable. Part of basic comprehension is being able to read between the lines. Did you even read the article? The reason they had to take ALL the artwork down was so they could get rid of the anti-war pieces. I guarantee you that if all of them had been pro-war there wouldn't have been a problem.

The last sentence of the article is particularly telling: "On Monday, two teachers and a counselor from neighboring Rio Grande High School were cleared to return to work after similar suspensions for refusing to take down anti-war signs. "

The issue is the "anti-war" pieces. Are you so blind that you're incapable of seeing that?

By the way, our education system constantly performs well above average by world standards and is ALWAYS better than yours in all areas according to the statistics.

I find your America envy so sad.

The fact that you wake up each and every day just looking for a reason to point out some fault is pretty telling.

What is it exactly that I envy about the US?

I don't know Joe...but you know I don't find many people sitting around discussing things they hate so much...finding any article to attempt to back up their hate.

When I truly dislike something, I don't even give it the time of day...I guess that means I have a secret crush on you.

:question Can someone explain to me what the current events teacher should have been able to allow if not the Pros & Cons of the current conflict? Perhaps he should have disallowed World News and only have taught National News, no that would not have worked either, how about Local News, no there might be a local involved! Seems obvious to me that we just cannot educate the youth on current event because it might upset someone.

Hmmm, with that in mind we should not teach history either, someone is going to get pissed off about that as well.

Now in the English class this situation could have been solved in advance by the teacher giving the students a list of approved topics from which to choose.

:2 cents: Bottom line as long as they were the students thoughts and expressions, pro or con, I say let them stay. If they had been the teachers on the other hand, that would have been improper!

And you never responded to this:

Current events are fine, however I think during these times where everyone's emotions are a bit stretched I don't think discussing the pros and cons of war would be appropriate.

However discussing the war would be.

That can be done without having students argue their feelings for or against it.

This story is on the front page on CNN today.

I thought it was worthy of discussion. I made a post about it. Yes, I am anti-war and that had something to do with it but other than that it doesn't get too much more complex.

I'll discuss any issue. If you want to bring a current issue from Australia onto the forum go right ahead. I disagree with many things our government does. I'll happily give you my opinion.

Your problem is that you simply don't like my views. Last time I checked this board was called Go Fuck Yourself, so you're just going to have to get over that.

Man you're so cute when you're angry...you must have been the butch in all your past relationships.

And you know what...the only view I ever see you express is anti-american so keep it up with the envy ..let me see if I can say this correctly....

guh die might

is that phonetically correct?

Oh yeah you still never responded to my post about how this war talk could cause violence in the schools against either a pro-war student or anti-war student.

G' Dae Mayte would be more phonetically correct.

LOL trying to avoid the obvious aren't you?

Violence at schools is unacceptable as it is in society generally. It should be cracked down upon.

But you can't not deal with issues just "in case" of violence. Kids have to be taught to be respectful of the fact that others are entitled to their opinion even though it may be diametrically opposed to theirs. Diversity, open mindedness and tolerance should be promoted in schools as a matter of principle.

Just lucky that we don't have kids bringing guns to school here. That's when school violence turns tragic.

Yes you can, when it comes to school, and dealing with children.

There are far less volatile subjects that can be discussed that would teach diversity, and how to respect other's opinions.

What we're talking about here is not free speech, but appropriate speech...and right now in schools discussing the war is appropriate, but arguing and debating the pros and cons of this war is not. Not when adults can't even keep their emotions in check.

Lets see here, saddam's troops are using women and kids as human shields, he is torturing our pows using car batteries, etc, he is paying families huge sums of cash if one of their members commits a suicide bombing. Using terrorism was a poor choice of words as that is EXACTLY what he is.