the revolution has started - Page 5 - GoFuckYourself.com

Dvae · 11-25-2010, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

PS.

Before I go to bed (its 3am UK time) just to remind you in the USA, that the USSR kicked your bottoms when it came to the space race. They were first in space, first space station in space (in fact they got two built before you started on yours), and many other space records. At least you can claim you got to the moon (though we all know it was in fact filmed in a film studio).

To be fair to USSR the Lada Niva was a great 4x4. Some say its the best 4x4 ever made.
]

Who cares, their people were starving thats what communism does.

And the ugliest fuckin' cars I have ever seen.

DVTimes · 11-25-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

Where do you get your warm fuzzies about communism?

The following definition does not include one thing that I find interesting. It may all sound good but its been a miserable failure throughout history.

communism (ˈkɒmjʊˌnɪzəm)

? n
1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community
2. any social, economic, or political movement or doctrine aimed at achieving such a society
3. ( usually capital ) Marxism Marxism-Leninism See also socialism a political movement based upon the writings of Marx that considers history in terms of class conflict and revolutionary struggle, resulting eventually in the victory of the proletariat and the establishment of a socialist order based on public ownership of the means of production
4. ( usually capital ) a social order or system of government established by a ruling Communist Party, esp in the former Soviet Union
5. chiefly ( US ) ( often capital ) any leftist political activity or thought, esp when considered to be subversive
6. communal living; communalism

advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community

Who owns NASA? Surly its owned by the people of the USA.

I think you will find you have many co-operatvive businesses which are sucsesfull in the USA.

So how can you claim its not working when it is even in the USA?

Also do you not in the USA have lots of sky scrapers (communal living)? A lot of these people rent and not own. In fact more people rent property than own in the USA than we do in the UK.

Do you not have state parks (communal living) where anybody can go?

Do you not have public beaches (communal living) were anybody can go?

Think about it. USA has a lot of comusist systems within.

Again who owns the police, the army, you the people. Its not private. Its state run.

The roads you drive on. Are they private so only a select few can use, or can you drive on them?

Is the p[ost office still state run in the USA (I know they want to privatize it in the UK). But I belive it is state run.

Ooops. Looks like comunism works. And works inside the USA. Oooops. Sorry about that.

DVTimes · 11-25-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

Who cares, their people were starving thats what communism does.

And the ugliest fuckin' cars I have ever seen.

To be fair, they are still more attractive than most of your USA made cars have been in recent years.

A few years ago ?USA cars were stunning.

Some were works of art.

But recently they have become bland, dull, shapless junk.

Its sad when you think of some of the cars the USA made. Some were too attractive to drive. Just every inch art.

DVTimes · 11-25-2010, 08:35 PM

Lada Niva was a great 4x4. Some say its the best 4x4 ever made.
(part 2)

DVTimes · 11-26-2010, 02:47 AM

cool stuff then.

u-Bob · 11-26-2010, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

I think people often worry too much about the 'rules'.

To me comunism is about the results rather than the practice.

Cal Marx states the result should be hapiness.

The argument that if you have the system right people are basicly happy.

Humans are individuals. Different individuals have different goals, needs, desires,... To be happy means something different to every human being.

Everyone with even a minor understanding of economics and human interaction, realizes that it is impossible to design a system where everyone is happy. You should instead focus on eliminating injustice so every human being has the best chances of pursuing his own happiness. Guess what that "system" is called... Anarcho-Capitalism.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." -- FA Hayek

DamianJ · 11-26-2010, 03:08 AM

Well done Adam, you've fooled them all into thinking you are serious.

Congrats.

ottopottomouse · 11-26-2010, 03:55 AM

Up till half-past 3 arguing about how great communism is. Good job you haven't got a job to actually get out of bed for in the morning.

DamianJ · 11-26-2010, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

Up till half-past 3 arguing about how great communism is. Good job you haven't got a job to actually get out of bed for in the morning.

And he is teetotal. So he doesn't even have the pissedposting excuse.

Paul Markham · 11-26-2010, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

1. I do not drink or indeed take drugs.

There was another option. You're trying to be stupid.

Quote:

2. Can you name which country comunism has been tried in. I think you will find no country has yet applied comunism. Just because they say they are comunist does not mean they are. You say you produce content and websites people want to join, but your the only one who does think that.

So let's drop a system that works, all be it not perfectly, to try a system that has never worked and when tried reverted away from the principles of Communism. And if millions die through it no working who cares. Like I said, trying to be stupid.

Quote:

3. Yes, its not free in the sense its not paid for. But its free in that it does not matter if your rich or poor, you still access it equally.

Which is great for those like you not paying for it. But for me if I lived in the UK I would have to pay your contribution. What's a parasite? Something that lives off something else.

Quote:

4. You say 80% will get well paid jobs. Where is your evidence? Many will be lucky to work in the local bugar bar with the economy as it is. Also why have you turned education into a product? A degree was never a product, it was a means to improve the mind.

Wrong. Most will end up in well paid jobs. A few fools who take dumb degrees like Business Management might end up flipping burgers. Or living off the State like you do. Anyway no Government would get elected on a platform of INCREASING TAXES.

Quote:

By the way Paul, have you not heard of the great people in the UK. Did you know that the chololatear rowntrees macintosh built ho,mes for his staff, and even a pub (he himself did not belive in the drink).

Do you not understand Paul that not everyone belives in greed likew you clearly do.

Do you realy belive that greed is good, only the rich can offord things, let the poor suffer, pollute the planet, rob earth of its resorses. You probably think its ok for animals to die out. Just as long as your ok.

By the way Paul did I get it wrong, but I thought you boasted that you had your cancer treatment on the nhs or its equilivant. And you boasted that you got a disability allowance? So why is it ok for you to take but not others?

No I don't believe in greed and do think those who are under privileged or handicapped, old or for many reasons should be looked after by the masses. But there's a balance and in the UK the balance was tipped over.

The cost of the State was too high and eventually it brought the UK close to bankruptcy. The problem was too much being spent by the State and not enough being collected in taxes.

Look at Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal for examples of what can go wrong when a State spends too much and collects too little.

As for students. I think further education should be free or a small cost for UK citizens. The problem was Blair decided to swell the ranks of student beyond what the State could afford. Free State further education should be available for the top tier. The rest can pay for it or go get a job. Not a perfect system but better than the one you have now.

As for my State paid invalid benefit and medical treatment. It wasn't free to me. I paid for it over the last 45 years of working and paying taxes. It's only free for those who don't pay into the system. Like you.

Paul Markham · 11-26-2010, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

I presume you read all of karl marx works as well as all the other great people who over the years have wriiten about it.

You do know that Karl Marx had servants and lived in big grand houses. Don't you?

Nice to be a Communist when you have so much. Sucks for those who don't though.

CaptainHowdy · 11-26-2010, 05:55 AM

Looks like the revolution ended up in the usual GFY childish dispute...

desiredusername · 11-26-2010, 06:02 AM

In my best Robert DeNiro:

robert deniro taxi driver you talking to me
robert deniro taxi driver you talking to me
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xG6QORKTziw&feature=fvsr

that's not what Lenny Kravitz said:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PZ8V-FktUNk

mwhahahahahahahah

DVTimes · 11-26-2010, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So let's drop a system that works, all be it not perfectly, to try a system that has never worked and when tried reverted away from the principles of Communism. And if millions die through it no working who cares. Like I said, trying to be stupid..

When has our system worked?

Can you tell me which year we have not had homless?

Can I ask you when true comunism has been used and why by? It clearly has not.

Paul Markham · 11-26-2010, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

I am dyslexic.

Its why I only did a business and marketing degree.

Being dyslexic is no excuse for your spelling mistakes on Boards. Your site doesn't contain them. Your spelling is bad because you're either to stupid to use spell check here. Or you're insulting us by not using it on boards and using it on your sites.

Quote:

I would have loved to have done somthing far more challanging.

Try this then. Or it it too challenging for you?

u-Bob · 11-26-2010, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigga

A true communist state is one where there is no government in power. Socialism is different from communism because the government is in charge. The end goal of a socialist government should be to transition their state into a communist, self-reliant country that does not need government.

From 'socialism' by Ludwig von Mises:

Quote:

Under Socialism all the means of production are the property of the community. The community alone disposes of them and decides how to use them in production. The community produces, the products accrue to the community, and the community decides how those products are to be used.

Modern socialists, espcially those of the Marxian persuasion, lay great emphasis on designating the socialist community as Society, and therefore on describing the transfer of the means of production to the control of the community as the "Socialization of the means of production." In itself the expression is unobjectionable but in the connection in which it is used it is particularly designed to obscure one of the most important problems of Socialism.

The word "society," with its corresponding adjective "social," has three separate meanings. It implies, first, the abstract idea of social interrelationships, and secondly, the concrete conception of a union of the individuals themselves. Between these two sharply different meanings, a third has been interposed in ordinary speech: the abstract society is conceived as personified in such expressions as "human society," "civil society."

Now Marx uses the term with all these meanings. This would not matter as long as he made the distinction quite clear. But he does just the opposite. He interchanges them with a conjurer's skill whenever it appears to suit him. When he talks of the social character of capitalistic production he is using social in its abstract sense. When he speaks of the society which suffers during crises he means the personified society of mankind. But when he speaks of the society which is to expropriate the expropriators and socialize the means of production he means an actual social union. And all the meanings are interchanged in the links of his argument whenever he has to prove the unprovable. The reason for all this is in order to avoid using the term State or its equivalent, since this word has an unpleasant sound to all those lovers of freedom and democracy, whose support the Marxian does not wish to alienate at the outset. A programme which would give the State the general responsibility and direction of all production has no prospect of acceptance in these circles. It follows that the Marxist must continually find a phraseology which disguises the essence of the programme, which succeeds in concealing the unbridgeable abyss dividing democracy and Socialism. It does not say much for the perception of men who lived in the decades immediately preceding the World War that they did not see through this sophistry.

The modern doctrine of the state understands by the word "State" an authoritative unit, an apparatus of compulsion characterized not by its aims but by its form. But Marxism has arbitrarily limited the meaning of the word State, so that it does not include the Socialistic State. Only those states and forms of state organization are called the State which arouse the dislike of the socialist writers. For the future organization to which they aspire the term is rejected indignantly as dishonourable and degrading. It is called "Society." In this way the Marxian social democracy could at one and the same time contemplate the destruction of the existing State machine, fiercely combat all anarchistic movements, and pursue a policy which led directly to an all powerful state.

Now it does not matter in the least what particular name is given to the coercive apparatus of the socialistic community. If we use the word "State" we have a term in common use, except in the quite uncritical Marxian literature, an expression which is generally understood and which evokes the idea it is intended to evoke. But there is no disadvantage in avoiding this term if we wish, since it arouses mixed feelings in many people, and in substituting the expression "community." The choice of terminology is purely a matter of style, and has no practical importance.

dcalm · 11-26-2010, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

Who cares, their people were starving thats what communism does.

you're right :D

Quote:

I presume you refer to school education (ie up to say 16 year old) rather than university.

you're so wrong, but from this topic it looks like you get a lot of things wrong most of the time :D

btw. there's that super powerful way to (cure!) dyslexia... you just learn few symbols that represents the right connections and then you associate them with words in your mind. it's really easier than excuses and bitching

they learn children this stuff... at least people who are interested in changing something :D but hey, you dont need to start beliving it right now, dont you?

its so safe and nice in comfort zone with all those freedom ideas :D

btw2. if you want to see real buddha you need to destroy him first if u know what i mean

Agent 488 · 11-26-2010, 09:06 AM

poor quote by mises.

u-Bob · 11-26-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488

poor quote by mises.

ok, read his entire book.

The guy totally destroyed socialism in his books and articles.

cykoe6 · 11-26-2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Most people to this day don't know that people like Trotsky and Lenin were Jews.

Most people do not know that Lenin was a Jew....... because he was not.

quiet · 11-26-2010, 10:36 AM

ah, animal farm. what is the line? we are all equal. but some of us are more equal than others.

Cherry7 · 11-27-2010, 04:57 PM

Very difficult to say how socialism works as the places where communist came to power were countries without democratic traditions and as the result of World War 1.

We can say that they failed to give power to the working class. That is the main mission of a communist to liberate the people from being the property of the rich, bought and sold by the wealthy.

Maybe just as shocking as the failure of the richest capitalist countries to give its population jobs, housing, education and health care.

In the advanced capitalist countries wages have been stagnant for 20 years and whole areas turn into 3rd world disaster zones.

A mass media that disinforms the population.

Criminal Foriegn wars

I was a shock how communism ended, but even more of a shock how the populations after a few years of capitalism wanted to return to a time when they had a job, school and social housing.

The US is very interesting not just because it has created a communist society for it richest 5%. They do little work and have what evr they desire.

But also in New York there is an excelent transport system any socialist country would be proud of and a ferry which is communist in the that it is completly free at point of use.

Of course the American State pours millions of $$ into the military and space industries as a massive transfer of wealth from the public to the private sector. Subsidises private wealth by making society pay for the costs of private industry.

Animal Farm written by the socialist Orwell shows how the animals were exploited by the pigs, but it is worth remembering that the farmer sent the animals to the slaughter house.

VIXEN ESCORTS · 11-27-2010, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

I think you will agree Communism is the way to go.

Is that why you were advocating a Conservative government on other boards ? Now the Tories are making you work for a living and cutting your benefits you've swung back to the left again. Do you actually have at least one brain cell ? Do you have any opinions or ideas or anything that is original emanating from that brain cell ? If not then I guess you will continue to cut and paste from the BBC website.

DVTimes · 12-29-2010, 09:54 AM

power to the people.

czarina · 12-29-2010, 09:58 AM

what ever came out of this?

Cherry7 · 12-29-2010, 11:16 AM

It was decided to take the Porn industry under state control and give porn away for free for all adults.

DVTimes · 12-31-2010, 02:19 AM

5 pages of this.

Grapesoda · 12-31-2010, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

There's no such thing as free education. Someone always has to pay the bill. People who demand free education are no different from people who demand free health care, free transportation, free cinema tickets, free clothing, free housing, free....

bingo

ottopottomouse · 12-31-2010, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by czarina

what ever came out of this?

It snowed.

pornguy · 12-31-2010, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

There's no such thing as free education. Someone always has to pay the bill. People who demand free education are no different from people who demand free health care, free transportation, free cinema tickets, free clothing, free housing, free....

So very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

Fist no country has realy ever had communism. China mocks the UK as in china the health service is not free.

The USSR broke many of the main rules for communism.

Plus who cares if porn is illegall in cuba. Or that they do not have the net. I(f I lived in cuba I would be on the beach all day.

I think Czarinas point was that Cuba is as close to Communism that you can get and yes they all including the USSR broke some of the rules of a true Communism idea but they had to in order to make it work as best they could. And it failed in the USSR and it is Failing in Cuba as it will any place else it its tried.

DVTimes · 01-05-2011, 04:03 AM

crazy crazy crazy

Dejan · 01-05-2011, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by czarina

you're saying that because you have never experienced communism first hand. No, it is not the way to go.
First off, porn is highly illegal in Cuba. Second, you can NOT own your own business. Third, you can NOT have internet.

My parents experience communism first hand in Yugoslavia, my mum use to wait in line for free books for my school when I was young. I don't remember that we use to pay for any medications in drug stories... everything was much more affordable.

First off porn can be legal in Communism (internet too). Second you DON'T need you own business when you have everything... That's what Warren Buffett figured out, his net worth is 45 billion and he owns a car worth $20 000. I wasn't bombed with ads to buy shit that I don't need when I was young like these days.

HerPimp · 01-05-2011, 05:01 AM

Nope, just mob mentality fucking up property.

12clicks · 01-05-2011, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-charge.html

With the economy in the UK going to poo, and things clearly getting worse, the rich getting rich and the poor getting poor, and police getting more and more power, would there be a breaking point? Well in the UK it looks like the point has come.

The youth have turned. Students demonstrating in many UK cities.

The respect for the police and goverment now gone.

Many over 25 years of age fail to see the reason. They condem the actions. They have become far too used to being told what to do and think. For too happy to have there rights removed.

But for the young they want a different UK.

Is this not what Michael Moore's film 'Capitalism: a Love Story' concludes. An era that people will rebell.

In the UK many students voted for the Lib Dems on the basis of free university education. The lib dems had 2 main polocies that made them stand out. End of tution fees and end of nukes. Both they seem to now forget. So if the polotitions lied, ca\n the students be blaimed. Are the student riots worse than the deception of the lib dems?

Does it matter if universities are not free in the UK?

Well it does. It changes the point and principle of british universities. Not so long ago universities were about education. Today they are simply about getting a bit of paper to enable you to (in theory) get a better job.

There was a time when in the UK a degree meant more money, but now employeers simply no longer advertise for graduates as they know most people have a degree. So now yyou can employ a graduate for very little.

In his film Michael Moore concludes that the answer is democracy, being the solution. But as somone stated in his film, democracy can be seen as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

I would sugest the answer is education. More people know and understand things, the more they have power.

But the goverments prefer people to be thick. Football is fed to the foolish in order for them to have somthing to be bothered about. People do not care if the goverments are taking there rights away, just as long as there football team does well.

So if students have to pay for education in the uk, it reduces the nombers of students who can get education.

I wonder how different the world would be today if the great Franklin D. Roosevelthe Second Bill of Rights got through.

Why are americans not angry that they have never had these rights?

Too funny. You're an example of the failed UK system.
Imagining education is free, thinking the UK system is capitalist, not realizing the rich already pay your way, etc. Etc.
The rioters should be shot dead.

12clicks · 01-05-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dejan

Second you DON'T need you own business when you have everything

Ahahahaha.
Son, describe "everything".

SpicyM · 01-05-2011, 06:46 AM

Stupid spoiled kids, thats all.

Send them to a post-communist country, they will face what it is like to earn 1/5 of what they earn, experience poor quality of schools and health care and still be happy.

Dejan · 01-05-2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Ahahahaha.
Son, describe "everything".

It's hard to do it...
If your goals in life are fast cars, big houses etc. Then go with capitalism.
If you think that car is just something to drive you from point A to B and house just a place to live not to show off to your friends... then go with Communism.

Like I said my parents use to live much better in 80's than today after 10 years of capitalism in Serbia.

11-25-2010, 08:35 PM	#204
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	Lada Niva was a great 4x4. Some say its the best 4x4 ever made. (part 2) __________________ The Affiliate Program

11-26-2010, 02:47 AM	#205
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	cool stuff then. __________________ The Affiliate Program

11-26-2010, 03:55 AM	#208
ottopottomouse She is ugly, bad luck. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,177	Up till half-past 3 arguing about how great communism is. Good job you haven't got a job to actually get out of bed for in the morning. __________________ ↑ see post ↑ 13101

11-26-2010, 05:55 AM	#212
CaptainHowdy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Happy in the dark. Posts: 93,664	Looks like the revolution ended up in the usual GFY childish dispute... __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted Windows VPS now available Great for TSS, Nifty Stats, remote work, virtual assistants, etc.

11-26-2010, 06:02 AM	#213
desiredusername So Fucking Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 95	Are you talking to me??? In my best Robert DeNiro: robert deniro taxi driver you talking to me robert deniro taxi driver you talking to me https://youtube.com/watch?v=xG6QORKTziw&feature=fvsr that's not what Lenny Kravitz said: https://youtube.com/watch?v=PZ8V-FktUNk mwhahahahahahahah

11-26-2010, 03:08 AM	#207
DamianJ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land Posts: 15,808	Well done Adam, you've fooled them all into thinking you are serious. Congrats.

11-26-2010, 09:06 AM	#218
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	poor quote by mises.

11-26-2010, 10:36 AM	#221
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	ah, animal farm. what is the line? we are all equal. but some of us are more equal than others.

11-27-2010, 04:57 PM	#222
Cherry7 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Very difficult to say how socialism works as the places where communist came to power were countries without democratic traditions and as the result of World War 1. We can say that they failed to give power to the working class. That is the main mission of a communist to liberate the people from being the property of the rich, bought and sold by the wealthy. Maybe just as shocking as the failure of the richest capitalist countries to give its population jobs, housing, education and health care. In the advanced capitalist countries wages have been stagnant for 20 years and whole areas turn into 3rd world disaster zones. A mass media that disinforms the population. Criminal Foriegn wars I was a shock how communism ended, but even more of a shock how the populations after a few years of capitalism wanted to return to a time when they had a job, school and social housing. The US is very interesting not just because it has created a communist society for it richest 5%. They do little work and have what evr they desire. But also in New York there is an excelent transport system any socialist country would be proud of and a ferry which is communist in the that it is completly free at point of use. Of course the American State pours millions of $$ into the military and space industries as a massive transfer of wealth from the public to the private sector. Subsidises private wealth by making society pay for the costs of private industry. Animal Farm written by the socialist Orwell shows how the animals were exploited by the pigs, but it is worth remembering that the farmer sent the animals to the slaughter house. __________________ My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye Cinema Erotique

12-29-2010, 09:54 AM	#224
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	power to the people. __________________ The Affiliate Program

12-29-2010, 09:58 AM	#225
czarina Webmaster Extraordinaire Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: A beautiful beach... Posts: 10,748	what ever came out of this?

12-29-2010, 11:16 AM	#226
Cherry7 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	It was decided to take the Porn industry under state control and give porn away for free for all adults. __________________ My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye Cinema Erotique

12-31-2010, 02:19 AM	#227
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	5 pages of this. __________________ The Affiliate Program

01-05-2011, 04:03 AM	#231
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	crazy crazy crazy __________________ The Affiliate Program

01-05-2011, 05:01 AM	#233
HerPimp Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 1,197	Nope, just mob mentality fucking up property. __________________

01-05-2011, 06:46 AM	#236
SpicyM Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,563	Stupid spoiled kids, thats all. Send them to a post-communist country, they will face what it is like to earn 1/5 of what they earn, experience poor quality of schools and health care and still be happy.