DBS.US

Surfers don't like the "payments" part

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Barefootsies

You have to provide them some sort of 'value' to get them to pay.

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biskoppen

Good read. And defintly something with a future

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stocktrader23

Somehow you and everyone else seems to be missing the fact that customers are encouraged to load up their wallets with $10 or $20 or $50 at a time. It will pay affiliates fine, plus lifetime revshare. Not that this is how it will be implemented, history has shown us that porn companies are greedy to the point of shooting their own dicks off for an extra dollar today.

As for $100 payouts, I think cam sites have proven that this can be profitable when your customers have the option to buy unlimited amounts of content after they sign up.

There will always be a must see video to get someone in the system. Also, new credit cards are issued every few years, not to mention different cards. It took a decade of unbelievably heavy promotion for Clickcash to get pretty saturated, I'd love to see the numbers on how much they have paid out over the years considering how much they paid stupid old me.

Absolutely incorrect. That is the same old 'old school' train of thought slipping in. Clickbank sells products that other people made. They take $1 per transaction and 7.5% and are hugely successful. Affiliates there make up to 75% and yet content producers keep adding products, I wonder why?

The reason you want multiple content providers to participate is variety and scale. You go buy 50,000 videos to get started, not many have the resources.

What exactly do you think Manwin is doing? I'm pretty sure they aren't planning on $30 recurring memberships to pay the bills for another 5 years.

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stocktrader23

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Somehow, an auto delivery system that has been used for as long as I can remember online and can be implemented by a dumbass that lives in moms basement is going to cost a shit load of money to put together.

Rethink what you wrote, look around the internet for 5 minutes then get back to us. I am not a programmer and I could deliver movies or images or what the fuck else I want starting about 1 hour after I buy a domain name. This is not some amazing new technology that has to be developed with a price tag like a custom cam platform in 1999.

HOLY SHIT!

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stocktrader23

PS Barefootsies,

We all already know that you absolutely refuse to lose an argument regardless of how wrong you are.

I am ever so patiently awaiting your reply to tell me how stupid I am to think I can deliver a movie upon payment completion without a system that cost anything less than 3 million dollars. I also can't wait for you to repeat, incorrectly, that I am unfamiliar with processing, website backends, or whatever else you want to bring up to make sure it sounds like you know what you are talking about.

In 3. 2. 1.

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{Psycho}

Sounds Good

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Barefootsies

It is "so easy" yet you have not managed to accomplish this from your mom's basement? Despite it taking a whole 5 minutes from the time you registered that domain.

So the amount of time you have spent going back and forth in this thread, you could have registered your domain, and had this cart up and running, and making a mint to show us all who's boss. Complete with stats and sales.

Instead you are wasting your Saturday arguing about your 'ground breaking ideas' on some porn message board with a bunch of strangers instead of implementing your idea for pennies, and laughing all the way to the bank to show us you're right, and we're wrong.

Priceless.

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iSpyCams

You guys are talking about applying the itunes business model to porn.

The only company in a position to do this that I can think of is CCbill. I say so because pretty much everybody has a ccbill account.

What nobody has is a software product like itunes that's cross-platform and supports DRM.

It's also pretty obvious that user interfaces are NOT CCbill's strong suit.

TheDoc

It's 'was' early AM on a Sat, I just got up...

CB's is based on doing over 100 cb's in a month/range, then a mixture of transactions and mostly money calculates the cb ratio. Micro billing will easily put an adult site over 100 cb's a month, putting everything they do under the radar.

A gateway could set this up with each persons unique merchant account, a 3rd party isn't going to be allowed to fund accounts and neither would the site owner. Nobody is going to be authorized to setup an adult high risk merchant account like PP/FB does where they become a 3rd party biller.


Yeah I know how the Internet works, and I also know adult companies aren't going to sit and wait for dvd's and full scenes to upload, not by the 100's and damn sure not by the 1000's - and edit them, titles, write-ups, box cover, screenshots, etc. Then the real content load, for sure isn't from 'online' it's from dvd porn companies that have 1000's of full DVD's - and only have them on DVD.

Either way, this isn't Youtube and MILLIONS of people uploading content.


Yes, far easier... just the level of protection of data alone would cost more than anything reddit has ever required, hell reddit is a site that can probably be loaded into ram completely and never served from a hd, it's micro in comparison.


If an adult site had the traffic of Youtube, sure 1-2 bucks might be worth it.


Every one of the companies you listed, have 100's if not 1000's of employees...

Videobox kills anything NetFlix has streaming/player wise and they have a massive collection of videos.... No mater what, they will never be as big. You're trying to compare mainstream movies vs. porn, just nothing to compare here - the market size is just beyond comparing.

A $30 vs. $20 sale, has almost no differences in cb's/refunds and if it did, it would be .1-.2% difference, extremely minor if any change.

And with a $10 increase on every sale/rebill, the sale income jump is almost instantly noticeable when you increase a paysites prices from $20 to $30 a month.

11 joins a day, over 90 days, it's a $10,000 income difference, before rebills.


It's not the billing model that keeps them from buying... plenty of people doing $30 recurring memberships still killing it and having no problems selling the hell out it.



I've seen people use videos, dvd's, pictures, magazines, rights to burn, rights to own from cheap to expensive.

Pennies to airline vouchers was an example of ways people tried to get micro billing to work in adult and even pre-load accounts, which was first done through Epass and used as a method to counter balance cb's through pre-loaded methods.... which failed with adult surfers.


Paysites shouldn't change what they're doing, they should add in more mediums so they sell wider. If this was to work, it would be something to add to the pool, not change totally what they are doing.



Other than I know what it actually costs to run an porn company that produces new content, covers multiple mediums, sites, staff, bandwidth, servers, security, etc and do it at a volume.... and I know what it costs lots of companies today.

A site doing 20 sales a day, with rebills will make roughly $30k a month. PPS or revshare, roughly half the money goes to affiliates, so $15k. Before the costs of host, before weekly updates, shooting/production, paying models, staff and paying yourself.

20 sales a day is roughly the 'break even point' for a non-self shot site, so one paying for actual production costs, affiliates, etc. Many of the bigger programs completely quit shooting sites once they drop below 30 sales daily... it's simply not profitable anymore.

Some math... $30k, $30 a sale, 1000 sales (before rebills) VS. 15k-30,000 single sales. If the site over that 90 days got 1 million hits to produce 1000 sales, they did 1:1000. To get to 15k sales they would convert 1:66 and 30k is 1:33 for 90 days straight. <-- Remember, that's less than the break even point.

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Paul Markham

So they won't pay $30 for a membership but will load their wallets with $50.

Doubt if the loading a wallet model will work that well on a paysite initially. Unless the member has had a taste and thinks it's worth it and there's no upsell to a main site. And that needs outstanding content, which today will lead to the member being retained. He won't stay otherwise and might start charging back if he doesn't LOVE what he got and want a lot more.

So not a micropayment scheme if you need to pay affiliates $100.

A "must see" video is tough to find today, unless it's good niche content. And that video would lead the surfer to think there's more "must see" videos on the site and lead to a conversion to a present day paysite. Few sites have content this good anyway. So where's the content coming from?

The days of the many are numbered. This will soon be the days of the few.

And I'm sure they will be one of them. If their content is worth $30 recurring members will upsell to a full membership. If not they will go back to Pornhub.

The customer is KING. If the system and product doesn't meet their expectations over and over again they won't play any game we give them.

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Atticus

I was under the assumption the OP's idea was to have the customer load $10-$50 in credits at a time, then deduct $1-$2 from the users account each time they purchased a video/pics whatever. Its really not micropayment but more the cam business model for paysites. The problem is you then start getting into the same territory as a regular paysite, if the consumer is unwilling to shell out $30 a month, then why would they purchase $25 in credits? The site would have to provide them with a promo, like $5 free to try out the service. However this would drastically increase the upfront costs as you would still have to pay the studios and bandwidth.

I can picture a lot of affiliates giving this a whirl if the site gave their surfers $5 free in credits, then either 35% rev share or $30-$100 pps once they purchased. Especially if the big studios were involved (Vivid, Wicked, Hustler etc).

The other problem with the itunes comparison is iTunes is incredibly successful because they provided the initial hardware. Millions of iPods are out there and iTunes is the easiest platform to fill the device with music/videos. The ease of use is incredible and its very hard for any competitor to overcome this. With the iTunes for porn model there is not a built in hardware component and you're going to have competition. The more saturated the market, the more the entire concept will fail as it's based on massive volume. The only way around this is to obtain exclusive distribution rights with the above mentioned big studios. This equals a ton more money.

I think it's a great idea and something that will eventually happen, but to be successful I think the OP is drastically underestimating the cost to set this up and the employees it will take. To achieve the critical mass needed to reach the top the sites burn rate will be huge.

I would be interested to know if a pay site has actually tried this? Instead of a free trial or $30 a month, set it up with the cam site payment method. Offer $5 free in credits (just an email required) and then purchase $10-$25 in credits and buy the scenes for $1-$3 per. The affiliate earns 35% or a set PPS once they purchase credits. You could even offer updates from other pay sites. If you have a big tit site one day your new scene available for $2 is from Claudia-Marie.com. If someone uses their credits on that scene the pay site keeps all of the money but they now can upgrade to Claudia-Marie's site and Robbie gets to keep the entire amount, with no affiliate payout. Or the pay site and Robbie split the $2 and if someone signs up to Claudia-Marie the pay site receives an affiliate rev share payout? Just some thoughts.

davethedope

stop worrying about tubes and figure out how to stop file sharing

stocktrader23

Atticus, the $1.00 to $2.00 movies that can be promoted anywhere are the draw instead of $5 free. This way you get the customers credit card and email address without costing yourself an arm and a leg.

Also, I am not underestimating what this would cost and how many employees it would take. I'm just not basing my figures on the non working models of the past. We are talking about content delivery on items that the customer has purchased rights to. NO DRM is the right way to go. A converted tube script would handle this just fine, watch the video you paid for on the tube or download it to your HD.

Doc, that 100 chargeback limit is if you go over 1%. Micropayments are a way to avoid this. Also, again... A third party would have no problem billing for this content, it's licensed to the gateway like anything else. It would not touch your chargeback percentages.

Paul, they will pay $50 after they get sucked into buying a $1 movie for exactly $1, see that nothing shady happens and find out that the gateway actually has shit worth the price. Cam site customers load in a similar manner and it just so happens that cam sites are the ones paying the highest PPS in the industry.

Barefootsies, you don't bother me like you do some people around here but you are in fact a close minded know it all on a lot of subjects. Saying it takes pennies to set up an auto delivery system is not the same as it taking pennies to go round up content from providers.

I don't fuck with 2257 at all, this leaves me out.

I don't expect most program owners to be receptive yet. I doubt they would even understand it considering you still don't see what I was saying in my first post even though it couldn't be clearer.

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borked

fwiw (am I speaking to the brick wall? good), micropayments are already 2 a penny in Europe - 1€ per vid, paid by cc, telephone, whatever. 50% to affiliates all that.

It works, it just doesn't bring in anything anywhere near enough. Personally even tried upsells in members area - ie open up the vid paid for for full and the rest of the members area is to view, but with a member sell.

This is by far not a new idea...

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borked

stop opening up your content to download.

a broadband era is a long way from 512k adsl.... no need for download if the content a member pays for is always available as a stream even after member cancel...

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Agent 488

can't comprehend the genius.

Paul Markham

OK if the surfer has tried it for $1 and has the option to buy a bigger more cost effective package it might work. What if all he wants is to jerk off that day or he doesn't like the movie he saw first? Your biggest problem today is hooking him on the content.

I agree micro payments, for shorter times and smaller packages, are the future. Simply because few sites are worth 30 membership. Even if members were charged $10 for it and half the content were crap, some would feel done out of $5. That's basic marketing and human nature kicking in.

Using the cam site model for paysites won't work. Because Cam Site content isn't given away for free by 20 top Tubes. IMO

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Agent 488

what if they just buy one or two videos. most people only jerk off too a couple favorite vids.

grumpy

pay per sms is just that. Works good in Holland. Tariffs are ok. A sms of 1.50 euro gets you around .74 cents and you can do content billing through mobile provider up to 10 euros.

So mobile billing / sms is very useful for micro payments.

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stocktrader23

They jerk off to a couple of videos at a time, not for life.

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borked

Yup, they do, but time and time again? Let's say I login to get my jerkoff material I bought as a micropayment (it's only available as a secure stream, but shit I don't care, cos it;s proper streaming, so I can skip back/forth to the areas I know work - 1'35", 5'13 etc)

Same goes for ex-members - I've been tracked as a member, so the vids I've watched are always available to me online (streaming only) are always available to me as ex-member (ymmv - cancel this to ex-members after x-months if you want). Or only display vids with ad overlays every x secs, whatever.

Point is, in 1 month how many vids will a member watch? A micropayment guy only has 1. A member may watch in a month 40, but 10 over and over.

Months down the line, (maybe with some email prompting), he will still login to watch that vid (especially so for micropayment guy). Maybe he's a fanatic and will login to watch that vid every time when he wants to jack off.... *IF* you didn't have that option, you'd have long lost him - now he can see your new content (that he cant watch of course - see the thread I just made on this as an idea) and well, with the trailers, he's ready to get his CC out again (the BEST type of freeloader is one that already entered their CC details ;) )

if you get where I'm going.... it does work - not huge %s in my own dealings (1-2), but then, I'm not a big idea guy, just the one that implements them. Nonetheless they are captured lost sales. And (this won't go down with affiliates reading), it was a sale that was cancelled, so if the corp got the sale back under their own steam, it's all profit, which is only fair.

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Barefootsies

Whether I bother you, or anyone else, has no bearing on this discussion. Nor did I say it would cost millions for a delivery platform when I was talking about costs. However, I can assure you it cost more than most, including yourself, are willing to invest in this idea.

Off the top of my head:
* An enterprise, properly coded, script to work as described, with volume you advertise is probably $5-20k in development. Depending on who you have do it.

* Merchant account. You would need every dime of profit out of this business model, and giving 12-15% to a 3rd party will not cut it. So you need a merchant account. In this economic climate, I would bet most on this board could not get one. I know many program owners who are still paying for years of cross sales, and chargebacks. By that I mean, high reserves, weeks before getting paid, their fees, and so forth.

* Staff. You are going to need at least a few people to deal with billing, support, and that does not even get into the uploading of the content piece. Which is not just the uploading, but the descriptions, sorting and rest. Unless you are planning to sit at a computer 24/7/365 doing this for pennies.

* Traffic. You need to have the budget to drive your own traffic to make R.O.I., or you have to develop it yourself. If you are doing it yourself, that means either you need more staff who can do it, you do it meaning someone else is uploading the videos etc., or you have a lot of investment for budget.

There are still a number of other factors that go into this, but I am not going to bother going into it since you obviously think you're right and everyone else is wrong. I am simply saying the only way this business model is profitable and sustainable is with a lot of volume of traffic and sales, plus keeping your costs low. Which you could do with a merchant account, assuming you have good credit and get a decent one.

When you put your money where your mouth is and put this idea into motion with your own capital (since it will be so cheap and easy), and can come back here in 6-36 months and flaunt how you were right, you are the king, then we'll concede just how easy it was. In the meantime.... we'll be waiting with bells on.

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stocktrader23

This is where I pause to wonder WTF you are reading.

There are ready to go scripts being used all over the place to deliver content to customers. You seem to think I mean some DRM infested streaming pile of shit which is the opposite of what needs to be done.

Picture a modified tube with a 'my videos' area. Once purchased they can stream the video right there or download it. They purchase the rights to watch it whenever they feel like it. I am not suggesting taking the shortcomings of the current model and incorporating them into a new model.

You are also worried about percentages, 12-15% is perfectly fine considering they also handle support issues, scrubbing and all the fun stuff. It would be better on a private merch account but it's not necessary and would not be a deal breaker.

And again, I am not putting this system up for porn ever. I will be doing similar in mainstream but I have zero interest in dealing with the laws and regulations this industry requires. I will bet you one thing though, someone will put up something very close to what I posted and they will make a killing for doing it.

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Nathan

This quote is just a placeholder for everyone suggesting mobile/sms billing for this...

At 1.50 customer cost, you are going to pay 50% to affilaites? <G> That's already MORE than you are getting from the providers out of the 1.50!?

The logic is flawed, I am sorry... affiliates will never understand why you are only paying them 50% of .74 if the user paid 1.50...

On top of all of this, anything below $2 (or 1.99 to make it nice) is useless the second it comes from europe, since you will lose another roughly 18% to VAT.

I do disagree with TheDoc and such though, since this is working in europe, maybe not at 1.99 a clip, but it works at a per minute pricing logic very very well.

I think only option though is to pay affiliates around 25% or 50 USD PPS (which is doable if a big enough company does this).

Stocktrader, regarding billing.. you are not understanding I think why billing is so expensive... microbilling never worked before because of TRANSACTION charges, not %age... At $1 the transaction charges alone will account for at LEAST 10%. For most people out there using merchant accounts it is more like 25%. (25 cents flat per transaction). On top of that, the actual %age of around 5% for most people out there, and you already lose 30% ... at $1.99 it will still be 17.5% lost to billing right away.

At a normal growth rate that anyone big will want to achieve, you are likely looking at another 5% because of rolling reserves (after the first 6 months of 10% until the old reserves are being paid back).

So 22.5% for $1.99 or 35% for $1. Nobody out there is going to run this if they have to pay affiliates 50%... I for sure will not... I can buy traffic much much cheaper for this than paying affiliates 50%... paying $50 pps I would see no problem with though... Possibly more after testing for 1 year.

But, never compare this with itunes or such, as someone else mentioned, the difference in size between itunes and any porn site out there is huge. Simply because of age and gender you lose 60-70% possible targets, and the other 30-40% maybe, if we are lucky, half of them would ever surf porn and out of those, 10% will ever buy. So you are at 2% if you are very lucky...

This is reality... does not make your idea horrible, it just makes it very hard to handle... We make very good money with a similar logic in europe though, so it is doable.. and we will move it to the US soon.

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Paul Markham

So why have we sold them a months recurring membership for years and some still cling to that method?

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Paul Markham

It's amazing watching people clamber for a new idea to market crap porn. Like some new marketing strategy is going to solve the problem. These are the problems with any idea like this.

A. Getting a customer to tie himself into loading a wallet with money, is in danger of failing. Chargebacks will be coming thick and fast if the content isn't good enough. Many will just cancel a membership for 30 days and not charge it back. But if a customer has $30 in a wallet he's more likely to.

B. Without getting customers to spend, load a wallet, a decent amount the costs will make it unworkable for most. Micropayments can only survive if you have customers spending time and time again or you have micro costs. Affiliates won't send traffic for a cut of $2.95 for a 3 day trial so good luck getting them to send traffic. Then you have to have your own traffic as Fabian points out.

C. We've had micropayments for years. A $2.95 trial that the customer is wise enough to cancel is a micropayment.

D. Content. Forget about the usual model of a site with 100 videos, or less, shot by the same person and all pretty poor. This is for those with sites of 1,000s of videos worth the customer sticking with. If you don't have the content you have to invest or rev share it. More money coming out of the micro profit.

E. The model of micro payments on a video. If the member doesn't like that video he's lost money finding out. A couple of videos like that and he's more likely to be charging back. More so than if he's able to flip to another video with no loss, in his head, of the money he paid. The solution to this would be easy and I've said it before. Make the payment over the number of days he logs in. So instead of being 30 calendar days it's 30 days he logs in.

F. Content. If the content is no better than what's free on Pornhub why should anyone sign up? Some will but content is the real problem. Few create content worth selling and lock it down. Without that why spend $2 or $30?

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Trax

hollywood hates redbox
they would rather want to see people spend 10 bucks on a dvd than 1 buck on a rental
the only one winning is redbox
micropayments is a loser for both the content owner and the affiliate

stocktrader23

The analogy doesn't hold at all, sorry.

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grumpy

as i said it works good in Holland and i dont have affiliates ;)

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arock10

I don't understand, why not just go to pornhub and have all the videos for free?

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Barefootsies

You summed dat shit up perfectly. Bravo my friend!

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gideongallery

50% commission is to big a price for a micropayment solution, remember the one provider is going to want a profit from this,

for paysites to keep their share, the affilate portion would have to go down, but if it a life type thing, with the right upsells this might work.

What would work way better selling your content AS traffic instead.

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MSantore

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looky_lou

stocktrader23. I think you should be banned for posting too many relevant business threads. I don't think the board can take to much serious info.

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JohnnyPearl

I couldn't say it any better!

MSantore

Most of the people I know outside of the industry watch porn on tubesites. They say there is nothing that would make them pay for porn. They would rather settle for what they can get for free than pull out their credit card.

If anything is going to pull a small percentage of people away from tube site?s its lower prices with higher value. When you are selling one scene for a dollar or two it is more likely to be an impulse buy. If a customer really likes your content they will have no problem paying a monthly recurring charge as long as you update regularly. Most programs already sell $1.00 trials that offer their entire library for a day or two. The only reason a customer would prefer a single video for a $1 is from the idea that many customers don?t trust porn sites, after years of shady billing practices.

I think the issue is the gateway that would manage the service for everyone. As good as the idea sounds, no one is going to trust one company with everyone?s content and processing. This industry is a fan of control, even though they don?t always show it by selling rights to videos for a quick buck, I don?t see it realistically happening. I feel like your idea could be accomplished by individual programs selling single videos for micro-payments to up sell a recurring membership. I don?t understand why we would all need to join a single gateway to accomplish this.

I agree with you on the price examples you mentioned. A customer can add HBO for roughly $15, Netflix for $15, Hulu for $10 and purchase a single red box DVD for $1. But if you want the title on the day of release you have to buy it on itunes for $10 or on DVD for $20. Netflix doesn?t offer most of the new hot DVD?s on demand. I think redbox even has a delayed release date? I agree with Doc, it would be difficult to offer the average single studio library for less than $30 a month. I feel like it only works with mega sites that offer thousands and thousands of DVD?s that offer an extremely high value for a low price. Walmart can only roll the prices back because of their insane volume, same with costco.

At lease you are thinking of ideas instead of yelling sue the tubes! We need to focus on ideas to evolve rather than trying to push technology backwards. As someone said in this thread, technology does not go backwards.

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stocktrader23

Just for the record, Netflix signed a deal to delay availability on new titles to get rights to more streaming movies. RedBox gave them the finger though. They stopped wholesaling DVD's to RedBox so they buy them in the store like everyone else now. This may have changed but I doubt it.

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nastymed

Micropayments already exist on several european market for 10 years .... nothing really new here.

The only problem is that most micropayment sponsors on these markets all went to credit card billing as it is 10 times more profitable....

Remember also that if you charge your user $2, telco + your micropayment provider will take at least 50% of it. So you have to live and pay your affiliates with $1.... good luck

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scouser

wasnt there something like this set up for a few erotic art sites (met art/femjoy type sites)? they had content from various well known sites, and you bought clips (rather than sitewide sub). can't remember its name though (think it closed down and didn't work out well?)

Barefootsies

True dat champ.

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