Rochard

Does it look like a controlled demolition? Sure does. That's because a building demolition takes out a floor, and makes the floors above it collapse down - until the other floors. In this case, we didn't need an explosion - we had an airplane instead.

It's just like the birthers. They honestly believed there was no birth certificate, and then when one was produced they called it fake. Don't they feel stupid now?

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MediaGuy

I haven't heard explanations - only leaps of logic into leaps of faith; "common sense" logic, probability, possibility, hypotheses and theory.

There's nothing wrong with all these because we simply have not been given an explanation or investigation. We've been given a possible scenario, whose likelihood is closer to impossible than improbable.

I'd like to know how asymmetrical inward bowing of perimeter columns could lead to global, symmetrical collapse and the destruction of core columns. How fire and heat that should take several hours to even soften steel in an enclosed area, can do so in less than an hour in open-air conditions.

But just generally, I'd like to know how they get from point A to C without passing by B.

It's not what NIST says, since of course they will not say anything that is, in and of itself, incorrect. All they say, taken on its own, is probably 100% correct.

It's what they don't say, explain or outline that frustrates me. It's their denial of molten, lava-like rivers of steel beneath the debris.

Actually "squibs" or ejections of air, dust and other materials pop out of windows, not corners or anywhere there's solid structural support.

The problems with some of the squibs in the WTC videos is that they're erupting from building corners, where three to four solid steel skyscraper beams are intersecting...

The buildings were buildings, please. Their self-enclosure did not mean they created their own air to breathe; and the "air tight" argument goes "out the window" when those planes made those big holes in them, the engines and explosion of fuel punched holes in the walls and windows on the other side, and the so-called fireballs managed to fly shrieking down the elevator shafts to the lobby and blow out those doors while setting other fires along the way, I guess by blowing out those elevator doors too.

Anyhow, the kinds of ejections you're talking about happen with progressive collapses, or rather "pancaking". Since NIST and others discount progressive collapse, and since those who support the popular theory talk about all the air and wind needed to keep these fires "raging" for so long, you're contradicting yourself with the whole squibs as air-ejections.

Eh, you can lay off the Barium, I admitted I shouldn't have mentioned it solely, and that I meant it's apparent higher-than-normal levels. However it was a "for example" reference since I didn't have the actual USGS study or independent analysis before me.

Thermite and unignited Thermate flakes were found in much of the dust, from many sources. Thermite is not used for indoor welding, and somehow I don't think they would have found it so evidently in the dust if it was from the initial weld jobs forty years ago.

Iron spheres were found in enormous quantities in all the dust samples from non-WTC buidings all around, and were even the basis for a couple of lawsuits because of the connection with WTC, Silverstein Enterprises and the Port Authority - whoever was being sued by the insurance companies concerned.

Iron spheres can only be created by very very high temperatures that cause steel to separate and evaporate into these tiny little globular drops of metal that then harden in mid-air. Which is impossible in the temperatures reported and theorized by NIST and the other government bodies.

The sheer amount of these little iron balls can't be accounted by the welding that occured after the collapse, partly because there wasn't that much metal cutting, all the beams were already about the length required to load onto trucks, and secondly because the residue of metal cutting in the pit wouldn't make it as far as the initial dust cloud did, to deposit dust in layers inches thick in apartments dozens of blocks away.

Well I don't have to give a why, or who, did it, though it can be fun to consider, and there's so many people who benefited that it's hard to define any precise modus. I tend to favor the PNAC > Bush Regime > Big War Machine line of consideration, as well as the whole trading off of homeland freedom for security erosions of our world since the event.

That's what I say.

Don't dismiss any of the findings and evaluations in any government report, they're probably factual. It's the conclusions that are head-scratchers.

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Rochard

During the 1940s a B25 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building. To this day it blows my mind that the Empire State Building is still standing. However, the differences are staggering. The Empire State Building is "old school" - all concrete and steel and not hollow at all - the plane was a lot less smaller, had less fuel, and was flying a lot slower.

You tell me that an airliner has hit a building, and to me it's only common sense that the airplane is going to win.

Simple. The outer structure was damaged, nothing was holding up the floors, and then fell - down.

I never said anything about "softening steel". It was weakened. You have balls and jet fuel, it's common sense that steel can be weakened.

How many times do we have to cover this? The debris was on fire underground for weeks. It was so hot they mapped hot spots from airplanes. This simmered for weeks.

You haven't researched this, have you? The lines for the hydraulic fluid that ran lifts for the window washers were located in all four corners of the towers every few floors. That hydraulic fluid had to go someplace, and being as it had an outlet (read: weak point) every few floors where they hooked up to it, it's pretty plausible that this was hydraulic fluid bursting out of the buildings at high speed, taking debris with it.

These were not buildings in the traditional sense at all. They were in fact air tight - there was a massive hvac system that was larger than most buildings that pumped air in and out of the buildings. The elevator shafts were hermetically sealed, and not all floors were compromised.

Dude, seriously, Wikipedia:

Thermite is not an explosive; instead it operates by exposing a very small area of metal to extremely high temperatures. Intense heat focused on a small spot can be used to cut through metal or weld metal components together both by melting metal from the components, and by injecting molten metal from the thermite reaction itself.

Thermite may be used for repair by the welding in-place of thick steel sections such as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location.

Your telling me that Thermite is an explosion that was used to bring down buildings, and wikipedia is telling me it's not an explosive. Wikipedia is also telling me it's used in welding. The caption I grabbed says "thick steel sections" - as one would imagine would be used in a skyscraper.

Of course thermite is going to be present. The entire skyscraper was built using it.

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DWB

I don't know what happened but I do know that those buildings were built to withstand hits from airplanes and jets. All skyscrapers are. I also know that such large buildings (like building 7) do not collapse due to a fire that isn't even visible from the outside.

A lot of crazy things happened on that day. Most of it will never be explained so everyone can agree. But honestly, box cutters? How many of you would allow some Arab to take control of a plane with a fucking box cutter? He would get his head stomped in. On the other hand, Americans are such pansies asses, maybe they did allow Arabs with box cutters to control the plane and fly it into the buildings. But at the end of the day, I don't care. And I don't care because even if the truth came out that it was an inside job ordered from the White House, they would still get away with it and nothing would happen. A few protests, some media, a Facebook black out or some stupid shit, and that would be that. So I don't care either way. I live on the other side of the world now and honestly can't be bothered about 9-11 unless it's to whip some of you up in a frenzy.

wehateporn

Thermite can be used as a cutting agent, if Thermite was explosive this would be counter-productive during a controlled demolition as it would also blow the cutting agent away from the steel it was meant to cut. This is why Thermite is used in conjunction with with explosives during controlled demolitions; the Thermite cuts the steel then the explosives move the cut pieces away from the support structure

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porno jew

yes they were built to withstand the planes of the early 70s.

porno jew

funny how most truthers are libertarians of the ron paul variety who think that government is a total inefficient failure in everything they do except for when it comes to 9/11 where now the government has near-superhuman planning, efficiency, execution, cunning and competency.

wehateporn

It wasn't the government

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TheSquealer

They had fake bombs which they were threatening to detonate... not just "box cutters".

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porno jew

oh yeah the illuminati, aliens or whatever.

porno jew

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._sept_11_.html

One flight attendant on American Flight 11, which also crashed into the World Trade Center, said she was disabled by a chemical spray, while another flight attendant said a passenger was stabbed or shot. On the Pentagon plane, American Flight 77, Barbara Olson reported hijackers carrying knives and box cutters but did not describe how they took the cockpit. And on United Flight 93, passengers reported knives but also a hijacker threatening to explode a bomb.

wehateporn

No need to be silly, it's already been discussed time and time again so I can't be arsed

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porno jew

who is it? i can't remember.

why not state it for our education?

wehateporn

Enough of this...taking too much of my time

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Rochard

Yes. No.

They were built to withstand the impact of a 1960s jet carrying 1960s fuel that hit the tower by accident - not a 1990s jet with higher octane intentionally ramming the building at a much higher speed.

You can even argue the towers did in fact withstand the towers.

My car is designed so I can survive a head on impact at 30mph. But if the car explodes, I'm out of luck.

Sure, I can see it. Someone with a box cutter in a crowded space can slice a dozen people before someone figures out what's going on and is able to do something about it.

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Phoenix

why does this persist?

no one here will ever be able to do anything about it.

give up...and move on...rape the whirlwind

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Rochard

You missed the entire point.

They - the "so called truth movement" - claims that thermite is the smoking gun proving that explosives were present. The truth is thermite is used for welding, and it would surprising if thermite wasn't present.

Now your telling me that thermite is used in conjunction WITH explosives.... Then explain to me how we can detect thermite but yet we found no explosives?

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porno jew

MediaGuy

The differences between the Empire State and WTC are enough that they don't have to come up in these discussions. The speed of the aircraft probably made all the difference.


If the outer structure was damaged - and we know only one quarter of the outer structure at the uppermost portions of the buildings was affected - how can you say nothing was holding up the floors. Even NIST says this isn't so. About seven percent of the structure encompassing those floors at that elevetion was compromised.

And even if this would lead to collapse - how could it lead to uniform collapse? Why wouldn't it just collapse on one side...

When these NIST and engineer people refer to weakened steel, they mean softened by exposure to heat.

Taking this into account, modern skyscrapers, beyond using complex infrastructural design to create stronger steel constructs out of equal or lesser volumes of material, are also built to take massive fires and heating into account so that softening or "weakening" distributes gravity loads equally to absorb the weight and prevent failure, effectively turning the weakened areas into a spring or shock absorption system.

It wasn't "debris" however. It was described by first responders, fire professionals and others as "flowing rivers" of liquid and molten magma-like material, glowing dark orange, like liquefied steel.

Normal building "debris" wouldn't burn for weeks, or cause massive steam explosions when firefighters dropped water on it.

Hydraulic fluid, I feel confident in stating, is not composed of anything potentially explosive; regardless of it's rapid expansion potential, I doubt it could take out cross-welded industrial steel connections or it wouldn't be used.

One video in particular taken from nearby, not miles away and zoomed in, clearly shows WTC building corners disintegrating explosively.

All agreed, all until they were severely compromised. Regardless, temperatures that were about 20% less of what would have weakened steel did not occur. And if they were so hermetic, how could the fire have had the oxygen it needed to propagate and generate temperatures sufficient to weaken steel?

[QUOTE=Rochard;18828344]Dude, seriously, Wikipedia:

Thermite is not an explosive; instead it operates by exposing a very small area of metal to extremely high temperatures. Intense heat focused on a small spot can be used to cut through metal or weld metal components together both by melting metal from the components, and by injecting molten metal from the thermite reaction itself.

Thermite may be used for repair by the welding in-place of thick steel sections such as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location.

Dude, seriously - this is a description of what I told you about welding with thermite. It's done outside, usually with copper for big electrical connections or things like railway ties; it's not used indoors.

Also, I never said it was explosive; in fact I distinctly cited "incendiaries" and metal cutting - and thermate, which is generally iron oxide mixed with sulfur or "super thermite". However it burns very hot and very fast and cuts steel like butter, producing molten iron (which was observed in the basements and beneath the rubble after the collapses).

What's described above is when you used a very small amount of thermite; and thermite and thermate (especially the military application) can be used to coat areas, or directed by devides, to simply slice through steel beams from railway ties to the incredible thick and strong core columns of the WTC.

I never said it was an explosive, or even explosive. I said unignited flakes of thermate (and possibly thermite, I don't remember) as well as thermite residue were found in the dust.

From what I know, the steel beams of the WTC were bolt-welded, unless the very earliest foundational components were done with thermite, which I doubt; I might look it up if it's possible, though from what I understand exothermic welding or whatever it's called is usually done to bond two different types of metal or for major electrical copper and other conductive electrical joints. Not for steel skyscraper frame construction...

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2MuchMark

Sorry Mediaguy you're wrong on absolutely everything in that last post. Please provide details, proof and links.

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MediaGuy

Which were heavier and contained more steel than modern airframes.

From what I've read this isn't so. From the "Truth Movement" sites I've read, no one claims thermite is a smoking gun. The smoking gun reference I've seen has always referred to the WTC7 collapse which was identical to a controlled demolition.

Thermite was found in the dust. Other indicators of indendiaries including uninignited thermate were identified as well as trace or residual explosive and incendiary by-products, if you will. The truth is thermite has classically been used for taking down large structures like derricks and tall, steel constructs.

Who says we found no explosives? Trace elements, residuals, yes.

NIST is the one who admitted they didn't even look for explosives.

If these buildings were demolished, it looks like they were weakened prior by metal-cutting agents, because of the distinct remnants of unexploded incendiaries found and the predominance of vaporised iron spheres, and probably displaced by relatively lighter and lesser amounts of explosives used to take out buildings traditionally.

The shape of the beam cutting could have also allowed gravity to compress the structure easily and fall into itself without resistance and minimal explosive assistance (yes, that is a hypothetical).

I'm not aware of the by-products of explosive charges and their likelihood of fallout or residue in the event of their use, particularly if they're minimized to non-destructive, targetted displacement use.

But the presence of thermate alone, and the eutectic steel corrosion initially identified by FEMA, should have prompted an investigation (when in fact any destruction of a building of this sort is automatically investigated for these materials, according to the fire inspection manual).

:D

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MediaGuy

Maybe I could ask you to provide details and proof and links determining I'm wrong?

:D

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MediaGuy

http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.htm

lighter construction materials were to be applied to the 7X7.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767

http://www.ae911truth.org/fr/nouvell...un-of-911.html

http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/wtc/

http://www.navysbir.com/n08_1/N081-020.htm

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110230.PDF

http://www.historycommons.org/contex...kedemo lition

?at that point he thought there were bombs up there because [the collapse] was too even.? [CITY OF NEW YORK, 12/6/2001] http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110230.PDF

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...68779414136481

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-e...rts-speak-out/

http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/i....1289/ehp.5930

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/

http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/wtc/

.nih.gov/article/info:doi/10.1289/ehp.5930

http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=1728

There's more that your local TV station didn't report... probably avaiable upon request.

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DBS.US

How many buildings have fallen down after 9/11?

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MediaGuy

Oh... uh... None.

:D

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BFT3K

Mmmmmmmm pizaaaaaa...

xholly

thats not a pizza

BFT3K

Is THIS a pizza?

xholly

needs more toppings

2nd one looks better tho

mayabong

Aliens from Israel.

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xholly

my friend who works for the Rockerfellers said if we get to page 21 he's gonna reveal all.

So stay tuned for page 21 guys. Itll blow your mind.

2MuchMark

Please start from the beginning. Tell the whole story in your own words. Feel free to elaborate on any detail, as much as you can. I think I'm starting to believe you.

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MediaGuy

Please re-read my posts, and tell me where I've failed to reference my statements...

:D

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Rochard

We are taking planes and skyscrapers, but the differences are huge.

At this point I have no idea what building we are talking about.

Keep in mind that the NIST is doing a lot of guesswork. Being as no one inspected the buildings before it came down, we can only try to piece together what happened by the debris. That's like trying to figure out what happened in a car accident when all you have is six thousand small pieces of metal.

Because there is a huge difference between a building tipping over and a building collapsing. In these cases, the buildings collapsed because at some point the a section of the building was unable to support the weight above it. Once one floor falls, it falls down, and once a floor falls all of the floors above it come down too.

How can you not see this?

Call it whatever you want. I've never seen the word "softened" used in this context by the NIST. Either way it was weakened. If you put a five hundred ton load on a steel beam and subject it to six hundred degrees for an hour, guess what - It's gonna be weakened.

Yes.

However, designing with a certain goal in mind and being correct using 1960s technology is two different things. My car is designed so I would survive a collision at a certain speed. However, if my car explodes, all bets are off.

With the WTC towers, yes, the building was designed so that it could survive a fire. However, it was not design to withstand a fire that was started by ten thousand gallons of jet fuel. It was also not designed to withstand a fire after an impact.

Your right - normal building debris would not burn for weeks.

But nothing here was normal. This was not a "building" - it was one of the world's tallest skyscrapers.. Two of them in fact.

Again, you completely fail to understand what the WTC complex was. Don't think of as a building; Think of it as a city. You have to understand that they underground tanks of diesel to run back up generators; They portions of entire floors in the towers dedicated to backup batteries full of acid. There was six hundred automobiles in the complex when this happened, as well as an entire subway station. The amount of shit that caught fire and burned for weeks must have been stunning.

Where do you get that took out anything? The pipes here connected to the outside of the buildings, where window washers could access it. They hooked up their tubes to connections on the outside of the buildings. It became the greatest week point, and when that fluid was forced out, it came out at the weakest point.

No, it doesn't. It shows air and other fluids being compressed out of a building.

The only reason you think this is because the only videos you've seen of buildings collapsing were intentionally done. This looks similar. Doesn't mean it's the same.

No. Stop making shit up. Steel melts at about 2500f. But it's weakened at at less than half that. The estimated temperature of the fires in the WTC was 1340f - more than enough to weaken it.

Where do you think they used Thermite?

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Rochard

Clearly, this is not a pizza. The Italian government would like to make us believe it is a pizza. However, the Italian government is controlled by Israel, who ate trying to build a pipeline from NYC to Israel to transport mozilla cheese.

That's not molten cheese we see, but instead calcium based cheese substitute that could not possibly exist an a real pizza... The cheese in the background is not the kind of cheese used to make a pizza, and the pepperonis looks like they were engineered in a lab.

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porno jew

link


?

Rochard

Google "thermite smoking gun". This was huge of the 9/11 Truth groups.

Both towers were built using thermite. Anyone who researches thermate for sixty seconds on Wikipedia knows this. It's common sense that thermite was found in the debris.

So they only found trace elements of explosives, not enough to alarm anyone, but you still think the towers were intentionally taken down by explosives?



Where they looking for thermite, because they managed to find that. Why would they be looking for thermite and not general explosives?

Didn't they just do general chemical analysis?

No. Your on crack.

Thermite was obviously used to build the WTC towers. Themite is used in welding large pieces together - such as steel beams!

Your saying they should have done a special investigation into the fact that they found thermite, and I'm telling you that they used Thermite to build the building and on repairs since then.

In fact, somewhere on site there must have been a huge bag of the stuff in the event they needed it.

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Rochard

At this point this thread might be longer than the original 9/11 thread.

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MediaGuy

Ya think?

Actually multiple inpections by different bodies were conducted prior to the 9/11 disaster. There were fireproofing upgrades, elevator system upgrades, and other renovations going on.
We can't piece together anything because the debris was shipped off, the evidence was destroyed.
When any plane crash or other disaster (think Lockerbie) involving airframes occur, they literally put the plane back together piece by piece to reconstruct what happened. They also use the black boxes of course, but these were also not used because for the first time in history they weren't found.
The building materials would have helped a building performance investigation, but FEMA weren't allowed to claim any materials - which were trucked away from the scene under guard.

In one case you had 70% of the building being pile-driven to dust and sectioned by the top 20%.

In the other you have 80 to 90% of the structure being crushed by a top section of 10% the building mass.

In both you have a complete violation of physical principles.

If your steel beam is structured to withstand the load, no. And it would take more than 600 degrees (F) more than one hour to weaken the beam.

By NIST's account about 7000 gallons were distributed unignited within either building, give or take. The rest exploded on impact or outside the building.
The buildings were designed to withstand both impacts and fires, and both were taken into consideration by the designers of the buildings.

These facts don't exempt the buildings from the laws of physics, no matter how big they are, and nothing in any normal or abnormal fire, inferno, conflagration could create molten steel in such amounts and foundry conditions that it would take weeks and months for it to cool.

The gennies and diesel they held were dismissed as any factor. NIST even stated that in the worst case scenario this fuel igniting, exploding and burning wouldn't have created enough heat to weaken the structure.

"must have" and did are two different things. UPS battery acid won't weaken steel or burn for weeks, and I don't care how many cars you count they won't have been turned to liquid by a burning building collapsing on them, a collapse which in fact would have snuffed out most fires within the structure as it fell.

And blew steel columns and aluminum cladding to pieces, and concrete to dust??

No, I'm talking about actual WTC tower destruction video.

I don't know where you get your figures but it's not from NIST or FEMA.
And steel takes hours at the right temperatures to approach the softening or weakening point as well as its melting point - it does not instantly convert once those temperatures are reached.

As I said, I don't know that it was used in the construction of WTC. And I don't think that thirty or forty years later it would be in the pulverized concrete of the destruction - at least, not unexploded thermite and military grade thermate; I'm sure different thermite is used. But again, it's not established that it was used or stockpiled...

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MediaGuy

Referenced in the notes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757

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asdasd

MediaGuy

Ok.

I did a sixty-second search and didn't find anything. Link me up if you can. "Common Sense" is the weakest of arguments.

Explosives explode. Incendiaries burn. Evidence is usually kept and inspected during the course of an investigation, which wasn't conducted in this case, for whatever reason you care to theorize.

NIST didn't find that. And fire investigation protocols demand that once any unusual events are detected in a building fire, specific accelerants and incendiaries must be looked for. NIST looked for nothing, because there was nothing to look for.

No chemical analysis. They conjectured.

No I'm saying they should have done an investigation, period.

"Somewhere" and "must have" again. There's no evidence of this.

An investigation would have answered many of these questions.

Some reading: http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...stigation.html

You should also look up the NFPA fire and explosives investigation manual to understand that even normal house fires are investigated using process of elimination, even when it's not obvious arson, incendiary, accelerant or explosive evidence is present.

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porno jew

they both entered service at the same time, around 82-83. i hope all of your "research" isn't of this quality.

you know when the wtc towers were built right?

MediaGuy

If you read, and follow the references, they specifically mention these 7x7 series planes are lighter than the 707 that came before them, which is one of the planes considered when the buildings were originally conceived.

I'm assuming that's what you were referring to when you asked for a link to my assertion that the older planes were heavier than the more modern ones.

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porno jew

pull a quote for your assertion. can't find anything you are claiming in your sources.

also the towers were built to widthstand planes such as the 707. the 757 was a heavier plane. this is basic shit here.

Rochard

From Wikipedia:

Thermite may be used for repair by the welding in-place of thick steel sections such as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location.

Thermite can be used for quickly cutting or welding steel such as rail tracks, without requiring complex or heavy equipment. However, defects such as slag inclusions and voids (holes) are often present in such welded junctions and great care is needed to operate the process successfully. Care must also be taken to ensure that the rails remain straight, without resulting in dipped joints, which can cause wear on high speed and heavy axle load lines.

Copper thermite is used for welding together thick copper wires for the purpose of electrical connections. It is used extensively by the electrical utilities and telecommunications industries (exothermic welded connections).


Now on top of this, we find out that it's used by "electrical utilities and telecommunications industries". How many mires of electrical wires and telecommunications cables was in the towers, keeping mind this is a city of fifty thousand people?

You keep doing this - pretending that it's impossible to find a certain chemical but the truth is these chemicals are pretty common.

Now your getting into nonsense. They should have kept evidence. Um, where? Where in the world are they going to keep billions and billions of tons of evidence?

Your also saying that "investigation protecols demand" that they look for accelerants, etc... And I disagree with you. When you have it on video tape that a plane with ten thousand gallons of jet fuel rams into a building, I'm guessing they knew the cause the fires without having to guess. I'm just saying.

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BFT3K

porno jew

also take a look at the so-called sources for these thermite claims as well. as with most of the 9/11 conspiracy "evidence" the original sources of information are heavily edited, distorted and so on. google thermite debunking, criticism.

mayabong

Israel was very much involved in 911. The board zionazi's are happy to keep us arguing about thermite, flight times, and george bush for another 10 years while Israel is planning the next attack.

5 Isareli's were arrested on 911.. and sent home by fellow tribesman, Michael Chertoff. Silversteen, Zakheim, Zelikow, Pearle, Feithe, Wolfawitz, Wormsur (sp?)... just a small list.

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Rochard

Well of course. The Jews are behind two out of every three conspiracy theories out there.

What in the would would Israel have to gain by the US invading Afghanistan? A pipeline? Security? Peace in the middle east? Ten years later, and nothing in the middle east has changed for Israel.

Don't get me wrong here. Israel is not a nation of angels. It's not like they haven't directly attacked the US with provocation and without warning. But it seems to me they had nothing to gain and everything to loose by doing this.

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