Who is to blame? Low sales, bad ratios.... - GoFuckYourself.com

TheDoc · 12-31-2002, 06:14 PM

Nobody...
GFY is becoming a nightmare. People pointing fingers at deceptive marketing, shaving, fraud, bad ratios, you name it half of you are thinking it.

Yes, their are companies that fraud the member, the webmaster, ect but the world of the message board has opened up a great way of communication. Most programs that do fraud are now busted and blasted out, only picking up a smaller webmasters after that point.

The one point I want to make on this post isn't about fraud. It's about the bitch that everyone makes about traffic. Paysite owners blaming free sites for putting out to much 'free' content or to hardcore, ect. While free site owners blame paysites for poor conversion ratios, normally based on shaves or shitty sites. Which may be true in some cases, for the most part it isn't.

I'm here to set the record straight for both sides. This post will be rather long.

Traffic: traffic is traffic. We put traffic into a category of high quality and low quality. Which is true but not in the way everyone thinks. Over the years traffic has NOT dropped in quality. It is exactly the same as it was. The difference is now more people know that their is a larger selection of porn. 1000's of teen paysites, celeb sites, pay and free. The surfer has lot's to choose from. It work's exactly like walmart. Some people come in to look, others to buy one or two things, while others spend tons of cash. Impulse buys or some guy that comes in for 2qt's of oil and leaves.

The reason walmart works so well is the selection. The adult 'world' is like a huge walmart. Massive amounts of selection but owned by 1000's of different people. It's not all put together in one easy to surf freesite/paysite, it's not even possible really. I visit the mall at times to look and not to buy right now. If someone markets me correctly though, I will pull out the cash and buy it.

So if your traffic ratios suck, don't blame the sponsor, traffic, blame yourself for not giving out a wider selection of products to get the sale.

The only 'bad' traffic for us is traffic without a CC, Check book, phone, ect. As well as underage persons. Flat useless traffic. The same type of traffic every store in the world get's. We do get this 'bad' traffic type but not as much as everyone thinks.

Proof of this is in conversion ratios. 2 webmasters both get listed on The Hun. Both get around ... 200k uniques a day from The Hun. One webmaster converts 1:2000 and get's 10 signups the other converts 1:50 and get's 30. (just as an example). The same thing can happen with SE, type in, e-mail traffic, ect. It's not a traffic quality difference, it's a marketing difference.

Type in traffic which seems to be classed with a higher quality traffic is just normal traffic. It converts better because it's filtered from the user side. He types in wetgirlsonbikes.com and a site comes up with it, he stands a chance of converting as it's what he is looking for. Type in traffic also happens for people in a rush or pissed off they could not find what they wanted, typed in a name, it worked, they become happy and buy. It's super filtered traffic, much like the exits of paysites.

Instead of bitching about either side of the game, learn to market your products better. Do your research on a company when you signup for the program, I know I look at your sites after you signup.

Now for some known facts, that most people don't know about. Everyone complains about fraud, cheating, shaving, ect. From trade scripts to money programs. The fact is 'MOST' do not shave or cheat the webmaster or member. Mistakes is a better term. Mistakes in code, graphics, wording, ect.

Help ya understand this more, I will give away a secret. Everyones trade scripts, money programs, dildo shops, whatever you can think of that has GET var tracking codes. Which is www.domain.com/index.php?blah=blah is fucked. What sucks is it's the only known way to track traffic right now. The problem with this form of tracking is it it's fucked. Between web browsers and settings, os settings, firewalls, isp firewalls, and about 1 million other factors it 'shaves'. The more tracking the less of a shave it has. I would say 90% of all money programs AND trade scripts use php sessions with cookie tracking. Fact: it will shave 20%+. Failure points are each tour page, join page, post methods, just about every point they can change page's is a point. Which means EVEN the processor can miss signups, they belong to nobody type thing. So you know at this current time their is no known solution to this problem. People can reduce the problem by adding in like 5 different ways to track, but it WILL still fail at some points.

If you want to help the adult industry, then figure out solutions to real issues rather than bitching about your conversion ratios thinking a money program shaves you. Same for paysite owners saying 'free' sites are at fault.

When this industry really started, of course it was easy to convert traffic. Out of the very little amount of traffic you had they wanted anything they could get. I remember when intergal was the first paysite with hidden cam videos, sales went nuts, CE used to be about the only full blown money program so yes, sales went through the roof. Now in a world with a wide option of niches people tend to be more selective, just like buying can food products, they want one type, one brand, one size but they have 300 different ones to pick from, so they are selective. If one store doesn't have it, they go to another.

As surfers become smarter we have to think of better ways to attack them. From the erotic look/feel that men thrive off of to soft erotic story like sites that the ladies like. The adult industry is a massive recycling bin. Ideas come up, 200 people grab the idea, 3 months later it's trash. If you want to make the most money then think of new ways to market, ask paysite owners if you can submit your own tours for private use or your own paysite under their wing, lots will say yes, lots will say no.

I'm sure to get flamed for this, i'm sure a few paysite owners will call me up asking me why in fuck I posted what I did. I posted it to help everyone understand that will take the time to read it and really think on it. The one thing I know about is traffic. From having many tgp sites, cj, top lists, mailers, se spam, paysites, ect. It's my niche.

12-31-2002, 06:14 PM

too much fucking reading. blame it all on the free porn.

J.R. · 12-31-2002, 06:16 PM

Some info to think about

Pornkings · 12-31-2002, 06:16 PM

Alot of Info but well said.

quiet · 12-31-2002, 06:18 PM

i love the internet...

gotys · 12-31-2002, 06:25 PM

You can safely blame me. I am racking up all the signups before they come to you, sorry . First I destroyed the free porn industry with heaps of free shit, now I am taking your sales away. Sorry brothers...competition is a hard game to play.

Next I am gonna steal all of your freeloader traffic and convert it to payers, just watch me

MUAAHAHHAAAA

UncleJimmy · 12-31-2002, 06:27 PM

Damm Doc,

I've known you for years and you always shoot straight from the hip tossing a bone here and there....

but today you took it to another level, great post, and right on the money!!!!

I hope some people read this and let it soak in...

Theo · 12-31-2002, 06:34 PM

That's an interesting post.

p1mpdogg · 12-31-2002, 06:34 PM

very insightful.. some info even the pimpdog didnt have... great post doc..

largecash.com has been a solid program for me, run by a smart mother fucker.

12-31-2002, 06:34 PM

after reading it I must admit that it was an interesting read.

Jak · 12-31-2002, 06:53 PM

Great read.

Jak

Darin · 12-31-2002, 06:59 PM

So thats why 20% of my hits didnt show on those stats!!

Pornkings · 12-31-2002, 07:04 PM

I'm going to bump it because it was such a good read.
and very informative

the bottom line is we all have our niche in the biz and the reason we have done well in the past was because we worked together
something mainstream couldn't understand.
they never understodd the concept of how competitors would exit to each other.

If someone doesn't like our Erotica.com site maybe they will join
Massivecocks.com because of the promo or the look who knows
we still can't figure out why certain sites do better then other. Our industry is all based on trust and referals in our biz. Most of the sponsors have been around along time and we have always worked together
back in the day I used to support a ton of TGP's buying there traffic per click or on a flat rate deal. we always worked together
Hell I remember Kman from years ago with rawpussy.

But that was then and this is now

alot of the miss trust was with the brokers scamming sponsors selling us forced exit traffic off tgp's just to get the hit and meet the quota on the deal made.Atr least that was my experience
they would send good traffic on the trial then when we bumped it up they sent crap.

which turned alot of sponsors off buying per click traffic or flat rate deals so we all moved from CPC to CPA

but I'm in the market again for straight up TGp traffic on a flat rate deal so if your interested hit me up In vegas and lets work out a deal.

well we are the mainstream on the net now and mainstream is our off stream.

Good luck and see you in Vegas

Mutt · 12-31-2002, 07:20 PM

yes there is the 'natural' shave, that is beyond anybody's control due to all the techie reasons you gave above BUT if you don't think there is proactive shaving going on there's a bridge in Brooklyn that's on the market.

The rest of your points are good.

The pie is still growing overall, just more and more people taking slices, slices will keep getting smaller and smaller because this is just too easy a business to get into. There is virtually no barrier to entry. As the economy sucks, you have more people without work, if you're sitting at home jerking off to free porn all day, eventually you're going to click on one of those 'Webmasters Click Here To Make Big Money!!!' links and hence, another webmaster is born and there goes some more slices from the pie.

Darin · 12-31-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheDoc
Help ya understand this more, I will give away a secret. Everyones trade scripts, money programs, dildo shops, whatever you can think of that has GET var tracking codes. Which is www.domain.com/index.php?blah=blah is fucked. What sucks is it's the only known way to track traffic right now. The problem with this form of tracking is it it's fucked. Between web browsers and settings, os settings, firewalls, isp firewalls, and about 1 million other factors it 'shaves'. The more tracking the less of a shave it has. I would say 90% of all money programs AND trade scripts use php sessions with cookie tracking. Fact: it will shave 20%+. Failure points are each tour page, join page, post methods, just about every point they can change page's is a point. Which means EVEN the processor can miss signups, they belong to nobody type thing. So you know at this current time their is no known solution to this problem. People can reduce the problem by adding in like 5 different ways to track, but it WILL still fail at some points.

Great post Doc. With all due respect, I have to disagree with you on this part though.

Query variables are as solid as a domain name. They don't GET LOST anywhere. If the tour or pages you are pushing the surfer through are coded correctly. The variables get passed along just fine.

The session/cookie problem is right on, even basic authentication failures will erase session variables for the current user.

Link leaks outside of the sponsors control will obviously cause problems. Its why I don't like promoting programs that have LEAKS on their front page to other things I dont get paid for.

If query strings got LOST then nothing on the web would work.

nocostporn · 12-31-2002, 07:44 PM

longest post I actually read on GFY...well said

TheDoc · 12-31-2002, 07:47 PM

Get varibles do get lost... They don't fail all the time, they just screw up at times. Everything in the world fails just how often it fails is the question.

Open a new paysite, no traffic to it yet, nothing.
Create an account on your own webmaster program, send out 1 million opt in e-mails with your webmaster ID. You "will" notice that the site will get say 100 sites but your processor will show 120 (or whatever). Some days it might be 5% the next 50%.

I have only been able to see a small patern on traffic types. I do see a patern on different countries which leads me to think that translation software within windows might create the error some. As I said though, it is millions of factors that I personally am just starting to be able to categorize.

We track using php sessions, cookie, hard code pass through and image tracking and still loose track. We are working on an "IDEA" that will reduce this even more.

I know us and about 5 other programs have talked about different ways, better ways to track. Most track using 2 or more ways to try to reduce this. I know myself and Roger have talked about it more than just a few times. Trading ideas and what not.

You can test it yourself if you know how to code. Create 4 pages, each page logs the passed vars. Make your hit bot track how many out going requests it creates. Set the 2 up on different machines, if possible through a different network. Start sending your hit bot out to force click the links. Send 50,000 hits through and watch the % drop each page.

Domains fail all the time. I know I have been on many sites and the site die, slow down, pictures don't load. I have seen sites drop session ID's, you name it, it's possible. EVERYTHING fails, we just have to figure out how we can reduce the fail rate.

TheDoc · 12-31-2002, 07:53 PM

Another factor to prove i'm right is referer ghosts. I'm sure people have seen that. Get traffic from blah.com when blah.com isnt linking to you. What happened was a perseon hit blah.com, clicked a link to whatever site then came to yours, he did it so fast that it fucked up on your site, which is server side, which has less of a fail chance than a get method.

Remember, stats are my niche

Darin · 12-31-2002, 07:58 PM

I agree, everything fails. But queries in urls don't fail as much as what the webmasters are bitching about *shaving*.

My point is, if its coded correctly the damage is very minimal. If coded incorrectly then 20% loss is about right.

Now you are talking about pushing people out to a third party and bring them back (ie external processors) then thats another story because you lose the control when you pass them through to another system. The best solutions are backend server to server solutions so the surfer is not passed around like some third party processors do.

I agree with the idea of your post but I don't agree on blaming query variables as the major problem.

As far as session variables are concerned, they are cookies. Nothing more. Cookies have shitloads of problems I agree. Anyone doing load balancing with multiple servers knows you create a unique session and store it in a backend DB to reference on the other side... and passing that session string through the brower is pretty darn safe. It's certainly safe enough for my online banking, its safe enough for comission tracking for sales.

mpegposter · 12-31-2002, 08:00 PM

Good post Darin. When all else fails blame the shoddy coding your company paid for.

This argument would be more interesting were it not in defense of excessive affiliate program shaving. Some might interpret this thread as saying 'you should never use a sponsor if you want to make 100% of the money you are owed for your traffic.'

TheDoc · 12-31-2002, 08:02 PM

It's safe enough, well it's the onlything we can really do as of yet

20% is a safe number to use. Webmasters should not worry about it, it happens, it even happens to the owner of the paysites. Can't bitch about it as it's part of life currently.

I know if we can figure out the issue we will tell people how to fix it. As soon as they do I make more money, ofcourse i'm going to tell others

BTW, Online Banking uses POST methods which is a forced var pass through if the var is empty it doesnt pass. Its fail rate is VERY low. Same thing when you send to your processor you use a POST method, wont post without the vars if you make it do so.

TheDoc · 12-31-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mpegposter
Good post Darin. When all else fails blame the shoddy coding your company paid for.

This argument would be more interesting were it not in defense of excessive affiliate program shaving. Some might interpret this thread as saying 'you should never use a sponsor if you want to make 100% of the money you are owed for your traffic.'

Aye, the point was to show that bad ratios and all the other shit going on isnt free site and/or paysites doings. It's just part of the interent, better marketing, knowing was going on, ect helps people understand more, which was my point.

Darin · 12-31-2002, 08:54 PM

I'll tell ya whos fault it is.

It's those damn TGPs!!!!

Darin · 12-31-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheDoc
Another factor to prove i'm right is referer ghosts. I'm sure people have seen that. Get traffic from blah.com when blah.com isnt linking to you. What happened was a perseon hit blah.com, clicked a link to whatever site then came to yours, he did it so fast that it fucked up on your site, which is server side, which has less of a fail chance than a get method.

Remember, stats are my niche

Tracking based on referer is even worse. Anyone using referer based tracking scripts knows the story there.

.. and I thought I was getting traffic from all those .gov sites. Damn.

Mister X · 12-31-2002, 09:05 PM

You made some good points Doc. It's a 2 way street out there and both the guys sending the traffic and the programs have to do their job well for it to work. A webmaster has to do his best to target the traffic he's sending to a program and the program has to do it's best to have something worth paying for. I think the ultimate responsibility rests with the cash program to actually have something that will sell but it's pretty easy for a webmaster to vote with his feet and sign up with a different program too.

Mark · 01-01-2003, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darin
I'll tell ya whos fault it is.

It's those damn TGPs!!!!

Shit yeah! Not to mention those bloody freehosts that ruined the industry.. forcing us to pay less for bandwidth.. bastards!

p00p · 01-01-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheDoc
Nobody...
GFY is becoming a nightmare. People pointing fingers at deceptive marketing, shaving, fraud, bad ratios, you name it half of you are thinking it.

Yes, their are companies that fraud the member, the webmaster, ect but the world of the message board has opened up a great way of communication. Most programs that do fraud are now busted and blasted out, only picking up a smaller webmasters after that point.

The one point I want to make on this post isn't about fraud. It's about the bitch that everyone makes about traffic. Paysite owners blaming free sites for putting out to much 'free' content or to hardcore, ect. While free site owners blame paysites for poor conversion ratios, normally based on shaves or shitty sites. Which may be true in some cases, for the most part it isn't.

I'm here to set the record straight for both sides. This post will be rather long.

Traffic: traffic is traffic. We put traffic into a category of high quality and low quality. Which is true but not in the way everyone thinks. Over the years traffic has NOT dropped in quality. It is exactly the same as it was. The difference is now more people know that their is a larger selection of porn. 1000's of teen paysites, celeb sites, pay and free. The surfer has lot's to choose from. It work's exactly like walmart. Some people come in to look, others to buy one or two things, while others spend tons of cash. Impulse buys or some guy that comes in for 2qt's of oil and leaves.

The reason walmart works so well is the selection. The adult 'world' is like a huge walmart. Massive amounts of selection but owned by 1000's of different people. It's not all put together in one easy to surf freesite/paysite, it's not even possible really. I visit the mall at times to look and not to buy right now. If someone markets me correctly though, I will pull out the cash and buy it.

So if your traffic ratios suck, don't blame the sponsor, traffic, blame yourself for not giving out a wider selection of products to get the sale.

The only 'bad' traffic for us is traffic without a CC, Check book, phone, ect. As well as underage persons. Flat useless traffic. The same type of traffic every store in the world get's. We do get this 'bad' traffic type but not as much as everyone thinks.

Proof of this is in conversion ratios. 2 webmasters both get listed on The Hun. Both get around ... 200k uniques a day from The Hun. One webmaster converts 1:2000 and get's 10 signups the other converts 1:50 and get's 30. (just as an example). The same thing can happen with SE, type in, e-mail traffic, ect. It's not a traffic quality difference, it's a marketing difference.

Type in traffic which seems to be classed with a higher quality traffic is just normal traffic. It converts better because it's filtered from the user side. He types in wetgirlsonbikes.com and a site comes up with it, he stands a chance of converting as it's what he is looking for. Type in traffic also happens for people in a rush or pissed off they could not find what they wanted, typed in a name, it worked, they become happy and buy. It's super filtered traffic, much like the exits of paysites.

Instead of bitching about either side of the game, learn to market your products better. Do your research on a company when you signup for the program, I know I look at your sites after you signup.

Now for some known facts, that most people don't know about. Everyone complains about fraud, cheating, shaving, ect. From trade scripts to money programs. The fact is 'MOST' do not shave or cheat the webmaster or member. Mistakes is a better term. Mistakes in code, graphics, wording, ect.

Help ya understand this more, I will give away a secret. Everyones trade scripts, money programs, dildo shops, whatever you can think of that has GET var tracking codes. Which is www.domain.com/index.php?blah=blah is fucked. What sucks is it's the only known way to track traffic right now. The problem with this form of tracking is it it's fucked. Between web browsers and settings, os settings, firewalls, isp firewalls, and about 1 million other factors it 'shaves'. The more tracking the less of a shave it has. I would say 90% of all money programs AND trade scripts use php sessions with cookie tracking. Fact: it will shave 20%+. Failure points are each tour page, join page, post methods, just about every point they can change page's is a point. Which means EVEN the processor can miss signups, they belong to nobody type thing. So you know at this current time their is no known solution to this problem. People can reduce the problem by adding in like 5 different ways to track, but it WILL still fail at some points.

If you want to help the adult industry, then figure out solutions to real issues rather than bitching about your conversion ratios thinking a money program shaves you. Same for paysite owners saying 'free' sites are at fault.

When this industry really started, of course it was easy to convert traffic. Out of the very little amount of traffic you had they wanted anything they could get. I remember when intergal was the first paysite with hidden cam videos, sales went nuts, CE used to be about the only full blown money program so yes, sales went through the roof. Now in a world with a wide option of niches people tend to be more selective, just like buying can food products, they want one type, one brand, one size but they have 300 different ones to pick from, so they are selective. If one store doesn't have it, they go to another.

As surfers become smarter we have to think of better ways to attack them. From the erotic look/feel that men thrive off of to soft erotic story like sites that the ladies like. The adult industry is a massive recycling bin. Ideas come up, 200 people grab the idea, 3 months later it's trash. If you want to make the most money then think of new ways to market, ask paysite owners if you can submit your own tours for private use or your own paysite under their wing, lots will say yes, lots will say no.

I'm sure to get flamed for this, i'm sure a few paysite owners will call me up asking me why in fuck I posted what I did. I posted it to help everyone understand that will take the time to read it and really think on it. The one thing I know about is traffic. From having many tgp sites, cj, top lists, mailers, se spam, paysites, ect. It's my niche.

Too FUCKING funny! This coming from Rene or (Andre?) of xxxpassword.org
These chumps don't know who you are?

How many people have YOU guys defrauded, and fucked over?

Sail on brutha, you da man!

TheDoc · 01-01-2003, 05:43 PM

No I am not Rene or Andre which lot's of people here know. I have never really been in the password world other than building fake paysites for traffic filtering. I was more into FreeHosts, Old school CJ sites (fake pw sites), toplist spam and se spam.

Never really could get my feet wet in the pw business. I tried it once, made a very little amount of cash and killed it.

I remember back in the day though. Many of the known larger guys today started off with the password, cj, top list busines. Ahh the good ol days.. Life was so simple, only worry was if my bank was going to allow the CE wire to come through this week.

Anyway, if you have an issue with Rene you can meet up with at booth #157.

DrewKole · 01-01-2003, 05:46 PM

3 words could sum up all this thread.

"Law of Averages"

=)

KCat · 01-01-2003, 06:19 PM

I like this paragraph:

"Instead of bitching about either side of the game, learn to market your products better. Do your research on a company when you signup for the program, I know I look at your sites after you signup."

If you haven't seen the inside of the site, then why push the trials & then complain when your conversion ratios suck? Anybody can slap up a pretty tour but the members area is what makes surfers stick.

p00p · 01-02-2003, 01:28 AM

So did Rene or Andre ever run xxxpassword.org? (I won't mention the beast site)

Sorry Doc, I see you post all over the place and thought you were Rene. My mistake. Are you a hired shill for them?

Is it fair to say that Rene ran xxxpassword.org, xxxhackers.org, gimmepasses.com, (amongst many others) and now runs largecash.com?

Ain't trying to hate, I appreciate your posts. But I also think it would be an awesome gesture on Rene's part to post how to secure your paysite, and expose all the nasty little tricks password traders use to fuck people over.

Password sites are nothing compared to what they were in 'the day', but Rene made a killing off of fucking other people over, and if he is serious about this biz, maybe he could do the right thing and help out the people he fucked, and those who may get fucked by password sites in the future.

Cheers, mate!

12-31-2002, 06:16 PM	#4
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	Alot of Info but well said. __________________ Pornkings.com

12-31-2002, 06:18 PM	#5
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	i love the internet... __________________ we'll miss you our friend. RIP

12-31-2002, 06:25 PM	#6
gotys Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 767	You can safely blame me. I am racking up all the signups before they come to you, sorry . First I destroyed the free porn industry with heaps of free shit, now I am taking your sales away. Sorry brothers...competition is a hard game to play. Next I am gonna steal all of your freeloader traffic and convert it to payers, just watch me MUAAHAHHAAAA __________________ PicHunter.com,ClipHunter.com,HomeTwat.com -------------------------------------------- not accepting any trades, not selling spots

12-31-2002, 06:27 PM	#7
UncleJimmy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ariZONA Posts: 855	Damm Doc, I've known you for years and you always shoot straight from the hip tossing a bone here and there.... but today you took it to another level, great post, and right on the money!!!! I hope some people read this and let it soak in... __________________ <a href="http://www.redpartners.com/?r=100278"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img src="http://britney-spears.blewme.com/wm.gif" width="120" height="60" border="0"></font></a><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Promote the web's hottest adult personals website, <a href="http://www.redpartners.com/?r=100278" target="_blank">Red Personals</a>.</font>

12-31-2002, 06:34 PM	#9
p1mpdogg Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 16,714	very insightful.. some info even the pimpdog didnt have... great post doc.. largecash.com has been a solid program for me, run by a smart mother fucker. __________________ A fast fortune is easy to earn! Just go with a winner!

12-31-2002, 06:14 PM	#1
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Who is to blame? Low sales, bad ratios.... Nobody... GFY is becoming a nightmare. People pointing fingers at deceptive marketing, shaving, fraud, bad ratios, you name it half of you are thinking it. Yes, their are companies that fraud the member, the webmaster, ect but the world of the message board has opened up a great way of communication. Most programs that do fraud are now busted and blasted out, only picking up a smaller webmasters after that point. The one point I want to make on this post isn't about fraud. It's about the bitch that everyone makes about traffic. Paysite owners blaming free sites for putting out to much 'free' content or to hardcore, ect. While free site owners blame paysites for poor conversion ratios, normally based on shaves or shitty sites. Which may be true in some cases, for the most part it isn't. I'm here to set the record straight for both sides. This post will be rather long. Traffic: traffic is traffic. We put traffic into a category of high quality and low quality. Which is true but not in the way everyone thinks. Over the years traffic has NOT dropped in quality. It is exactly the same as it was. The difference is now more people know that their is a larger selection of porn. 1000's of teen paysites, celeb sites, pay and free. The surfer has lot's to choose from. It work's exactly like walmart. Some people come in to look, others to buy one or two things, while others spend tons of cash. Impulse buys or some guy that comes in for 2qt's of oil and leaves. The reason walmart works so well is the selection. The adult 'world' is like a huge walmart. Massive amounts of selection but owned by 1000's of different people. It's not all put together in one easy to surf freesite/paysite, it's not even possible really. I visit the mall at times to look and not to buy right now. If someone markets me correctly though, I will pull out the cash and buy it. So if your traffic ratios suck, don't blame the sponsor, traffic, blame yourself for not giving out a wider selection of products to get the sale. The only 'bad' traffic for us is traffic without a CC, Check book, phone, ect. As well as underage persons. Flat useless traffic. The same type of traffic every store in the world get's. We do get this 'bad' traffic type but not as much as everyone thinks. Proof of this is in conversion ratios. 2 webmasters both get listed on The Hun. Both get around ... 200k uniques a day from The Hun. One webmaster converts 1:2000 and get's 10 signups the other converts 1:50 and get's 30. (just as an example). The same thing can happen with SE, type in, e-mail traffic, ect. It's not a traffic quality difference, it's a marketing difference. Type in traffic which seems to be classed with a higher quality traffic is just normal traffic. It converts better because it's filtered from the user side. He types in wetgirlsonbikes.com and a site comes up with it, he stands a chance of converting as it's what he is looking for. Type in traffic also happens for people in a rush or pissed off they could not find what they wanted, typed in a name, it worked, they become happy and buy. It's super filtered traffic, much like the exits of paysites. Instead of bitching about either side of the game, learn to market your products better. Do your research on a company when you signup for the program, I know I look at your sites after you signup. Now for some known facts, that most people don't know about. Everyone complains about fraud, cheating, shaving, ect. From trade scripts to money programs. The fact is 'MOST' do not shave or cheat the webmaster or member. Mistakes is a better term. Mistakes in code, graphics, wording, ect. Help ya understand this more, I will give away a secret. Everyones trade scripts, money programs, dildo shops, whatever you can think of that has GET var tracking codes. Which is www.domain.com/index.php?blah=blah is fucked. What sucks is it's the only known way to track traffic right now. The problem with this form of tracking is it it's fucked. Between web browsers and settings, os settings, firewalls, isp firewalls, and about 1 million other factors it 'shaves'. The more tracking the less of a shave it has. I would say 90% of all money programs AND trade scripts use php sessions with cookie tracking. Fact: it will shave 20%+. Failure points are each tour page, join page, post methods, just about every point they can change page's is a point. Which means EVEN the processor can miss signups, they belong to nobody type thing. So you know at this current time their is no known solution to this problem. People can reduce the problem by adding in like 5 different ways to track, but it WILL still fail at some points. If you want to help the adult industry, then figure out solutions to real issues rather than bitching about your conversion ratios thinking a money program shaves you. Same for paysite owners saying 'free' sites are at fault. When this industry really started, of course it was easy to convert traffic. Out of the very little amount of traffic you had they wanted anything they could get. I remember when intergal was the first paysite with hidden cam videos, sales went nuts, CE used to be about the only full blown money program so yes, sales went through the roof. Now in a world with a wide option of niches people tend to be more selective, just like buying can food products, they want one type, one brand, one size but they have 300 different ones to pick from, so they are selective. If one store doesn't have it, they go to another. As surfers become smarter we have to think of better ways to attack them. From the erotic look/feel that men thrive off of to soft erotic story like sites that the ladies like. The adult industry is a massive recycling bin. Ideas come up, 200 people grab the idea, 3 months later it's trash. If you want to make the most money then think of new ways to market, ask paysite owners if you can submit your own tours for private use or your own paysite under their wing, lots will say yes, lots will say no. I'm sure to get flamed for this, i'm sure a few paysite owners will call me up asking me why in fuck I posted what I did. I posted it to help everyone understand that will take the time to read it and really think on it. The one thing I know about is traffic. From having many tgp sites, cj, top lists, mailers, se spam, paysites, ect. It's my niche. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

12-31-2002, 06:14 PM	#2
X37375787 Guest Posts: n/a	too much fucking reading. blame it all on the free porn.

12-31-2002, 06:16 PM	#3
J.R. WantBoobs.com Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Calif & Washington Posts: 3,472	Some info to think about

12-31-2002, 06:34 PM	#8
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	That's an interesting post.

12-31-2002, 06:53 PM	#11
Jak So Fucking Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ripenedpeach.com Posts: 1,143	Great read. Jak

12-31-2002, 06:59 PM	#12
Darin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 345	So thats why 20% of my hits didnt show on those stats!! __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-31-2002, 07:04 PM	#13
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	I'm going to bump it because it was such a good read. and very informative the bottom line is we all have our niche in the biz and the reason we have done well in the past was because we worked together something mainstream couldn't understand. they never understodd the concept of how competitors would exit to each other. If someone doesn't like our Erotica.com site maybe they will join Massivecocks.com because of the promo or the look who knows we still can't figure out why certain sites do better then other. Our industry is all based on trust and referals in our biz. Most of the sponsors have been around along time and we have always worked together back in the day I used to support a ton of TGP's buying there traffic per click or on a flat rate deal. we always worked together Hell I remember Kman from years ago with rawpussy. But that was then and this is now alot of the miss trust was with the brokers scamming sponsors selling us forced exit traffic off tgp's just to get the hit and meet the quota on the deal made.Atr least that was my experience they would send good traffic on the trial then when we bumped it up they sent crap. which turned alot of sponsors off buying per click traffic or flat rate deals so we all moved from CPC to CPA but I'm in the market again for straight up TGp traffic on a flat rate deal so if your interested hit me up In vegas and lets work out a deal. well we are the mainstream on the net now and mainstream is our off stream. Good luck and see you in Vegas __________________ Pornkings.com

12-31-2002, 07:20 PM	#14
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	yes there is the 'natural' shave, that is beyond anybody's control due to all the techie reasons you gave above BUT if you don't think there is proactive shaving going on there's a bridge in Brooklyn that's on the market. The rest of your points are good. The pie is still growing overall, just more and more people taking slices, slices will keep getting smaller and smaller because this is just too easy a business to get into. There is virtually no barrier to entry. As the economy sucks, you have more people without work, if you're sitting at home jerking off to free porn all day, eventually you're going to click on one of those 'Webmasters Click Here To Make Big Money!!!' links and hence, another webmaster is born and there goes some more slices from the pie. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

12-31-2002, 07:44 PM	#16
nocostporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 5,228	longest post I actually read on GFY...well said __________________ CashTheChecks.com -coming soon- "Exclusive sites for Exclusive Webmasters" ICQ-119966868,add me first don't message

12-31-2002, 07:47 PM	#17
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Get varibles do get lost... They don't fail all the time, they just screw up at times. Everything in the world fails just how often it fails is the question. Open a new paysite, no traffic to it yet, nothing. Create an account on your own webmaster program, send out 1 million opt in e-mails with your webmaster ID. You "will" notice that the site will get say 100 sites but your processor will show 120 (or whatever). Some days it might be 5% the next 50%. I have only been able to see a small patern on traffic types. I do see a patern on different countries which leads me to think that translation software within windows might create the error some. As I said though, it is millions of factors that I personally am just starting to be able to categorize. We track using php sessions, cookie, hard code pass through and image tracking and still loose track. We are working on an "IDEA" that will reduce this even more. I know us and about 5 other programs have talked about different ways, better ways to track. Most track using 2 or more ways to try to reduce this. I know myself and Roger have talked about it more than just a few times. Trading ideas and what not. You can test it yourself if you know how to code. Create 4 pages, each page logs the passed vars. Make your hit bot track how many out going requests it creates. Set the 2 up on different machines, if possible through a different network. Start sending your hit bot out to force click the links. Send 50,000 hits through and watch the % drop each page. Domains fail all the time. I know I have been on many sites and the site die, slow down, pictures don't load. I have seen sites drop session ID's, you name it, it's possible. EVERYTHING fails, we just have to figure out how we can reduce the fail rate. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation Last edited by TheDoc; 12-31-2002 at 07:55 PM..

12-31-2002, 07:53 PM	#18
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Another factor to prove i'm right is referer ghosts. I'm sure people have seen that. Get traffic from blah.com when blah.com isnt linking to you. What happened was a perseon hit blah.com, clicked a link to whatever site then came to yours, he did it so fast that it fucked up on your site, which is server side, which has less of a fail chance than a get method. Remember, stats are my niche __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

12-31-2002, 07:58 PM	#19
Darin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 345	I agree, everything fails. But queries in urls don't fail as much as what the webmasters are bitching about shaving. My point is, if its coded correctly the damage is very minimal. If coded incorrectly then 20% loss is about right. Now you are talking about pushing people out to a third party and bring them back (ie external processors) then thats another story because you lose the control when you pass them through to another system. The best solutions are backend server to server solutions so the surfer is not passed around like some third party processors do. I agree with the idea of your post but I don't agree on blaming query variables as the major problem. As far as session variables are concerned, they are cookies. Nothing more. Cookies have shitloads of problems I agree. Anyone doing load balancing with multiple servers knows you create a unique session and store it in a backend DB to reference on the other side... and passing that session string through the brower is pretty darn safe. It's certainly safe enough for my online banking, its safe enough for comission tracking for sales. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-31-2002, 08:00 PM	#20
mpegposter Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tri-State Posts: 483	Good post Darin. When all else fails blame the shoddy coding your company paid for. This argument would be more interesting were it not in defense of excessive affiliate program shaving. Some might interpret this thread as saying 'you should never use a sponsor if you want to make 100% of the money you are owed for your traffic.' __________________ The voice of the Moral Minority. New Sponsor Converting Like Hell!

12-31-2002, 08:02 PM	#21
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	It's safe enough, well it's the onlything we can really do as of yet 20% is a safe number to use. Webmasters should not worry about it, it happens, it even happens to the owner of the paysites. Can't bitch about it as it's part of life currently. I know if we can figure out the issue we will tell people how to fix it. As soon as they do I make more money, ofcourse i'm going to tell others BTW, Online Banking uses POST methods which is a forced var pass through if the var is empty it doesnt pass. Its fail rate is VERY low. Same thing when you send to your processor you use a POST method, wont post without the vars if you make it do so. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

12-31-2002, 08:54 PM	#23
Darin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 345	I'll tell ya whos fault it is. It's those damn TGPs!!!! __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-31-2002, 09:05 PM	#25
Mister X Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 134	You made some good points Doc. It's a 2 way street out there and both the guys sending the traffic and the programs have to do their job well for it to work. A webmaster has to do his best to target the traffic he's sending to a program and the program has to do it's best to have something worth paying for. I think the ultimate responsibility rests with the cash program to actually have something that will sell but it's pretty easy for a webmaster to vote with his feet and sign up with a different program too. __________________ contact = stew AT eromodelcash.com

01-01-2003, 05:43 PM	#28
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	No I am not Rene or Andre which lot's of people here know. I have never really been in the password world other than building fake paysites for traffic filtering. I was more into FreeHosts, Old school CJ sites (fake pw sites), toplist spam and se spam. Never really could get my feet wet in the pw business. I tried it once, made a very little amount of cash and killed it. I remember back in the day though. Many of the known larger guys today started off with the password, cj, top list busines. Ahh the good ol days.. Life was so simple, only worry was if my bank was going to allow the CE wire to come through this week. Anyway, if you have an issue with Rene you can meet up with at booth #157. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

01-01-2003, 05:46 PM	#29
DrewKole Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,193	3 words could sum up all this thread. "Law of Averages" =)

01-01-2003, 06:19 PM	#30
KCat Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: PNW Posts: 2,204	I like this paragraph: "Instead of bitching about either side of the game, learn to market your products better. Do your research on a company when you signup for the program, I know I look at your sites after you signup." If you haven't seen the inside of the site, then why push the trials & then complain when your conversion ratios suck? Anybody can slap up a pretty tour but the members area is what makes surfers stick.

01-02-2003, 01:28 AM	#31
p00p Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: CanaDUH Posts: 5,125	So did Rene or Andre ever run xxxpassword.org? (I won't mention the beast site) Sorry Doc, I see you post all over the place and thought you were Rene. My mistake. Are you a hired shill for them? Is it fair to say that Rene ran xxxpassword.org, xxxhackers.org, gimmepasses.com, (amongst many others) and now runs largecash.com? Ain't trying to hate, I appreciate your posts. But I also think it would be an awesome gesture on Rene's part to post how to secure your paysite, and expose all the nasty little tricks password traders use to fuck people over. Password sites are nothing compared to what they were in 'the day', but Rene made a killing off of fucking other people over, and if he is serious about this biz, maybe he could do the right thing and help out the people he fucked, and those who may get fucked by password sites in the future. Cheers, mate! Last edited by p00p; 01-02-2003 at 01:53 AM..