Most of his money comes from cross sells on wegcash's "free" age verification tube sites.

If you don't know what an age verification site is there is an explanation in wikipedia. It is filed under internet fraud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_fraud

Here is the extract:

"...the perpetrators may also aim to use the customer's credit card information to obtain cash or to make purchases of their own. A common example of this type of fraud are pornographic websites that advertise free access. Upon further inspection, however, a credit card is required "for age verification purposes only". The scammers then use your credit card information to make large charges to the credit card."

I am not saying it, wikipedia is saying it....

That is total bullshit. Getting a credit card verification is good business. And if anybody used a "pornographic website" to "obtain cash or to make purchases of their own"...then there would be a bank getting closed down by the feds. Because webmasters do not have the credit card number. The processing bank does. The only thing that we can do with a credit card is charge them for a membership.

Don't forget that wikipdeia is written by everybody. No matter how uneducated they may be on a subject.

Robbie, I know where you are coming from, but have you had a look at tube sites recently?

They are now all sponsored by fake "free" dating sites and exgirlfriend sites rebilling at over $200. Four times $49.

We are talking about hundreds of thousands of transactions, thiese guys will shut down banks.

I don't want to carry on, but really, you might want to reassess who are your friends and who are your enemies :2 cents:

Welcome back, how was the day job?:1orglaugh

I was referring to the bullshit in the wikipedia that you quoted, not saying that you were saying anything wrong. :) Fake free sites have and always will be a great marketing tool. As are trials. Anything to get a credit card approved and billing. Every business in the world does it. Hell, I got my first 3 months of the Cox Cable Bundle for $99 a month...and then it jumped to $270 a month :( lol

If a person signs up for sites and gets a free trial that starts billing in a few days and they don't cancel...that's totally fair game. And always has been.

Putting x-sells on a cancel page or hiding them or making it impossible to cancel them...that's the part that moves into a more nasty area that I don't agree with.

But free sites that require your card? That's nothing more than a trial membership. It's actually a good deal...unless you're drunk at 3 in the morning and don't remember it the next day. But of course you get emails telling you about your membership and the terms as well.

I know when I sign up for anything that requires my card...I pay very close attention to it. I also have the common sense to check my bank account online everyday and keep tabs on charges. So no, I see nothing wrong with the marketing aspect of "free" sites using credit card age verification. Also don't forget that IF the consumer makes a mistake and didn't want anything they can very easily just simply...chargeback.

The chargeback is something that is never brought up in those conversations. It's very effective and ultimately insures that nobody ever has to be screwed.

Another GFYer comes home from the day job and swings and misses at what he has no clue about.

If you were able to read, you would see I said my receptionist makes more than your so called program.
Ask your billing rep. If he's polite, he'll tell you you're clueless, if not he'll simply laugh in your face. :1orglaugh

postin in a troll thread.

These are no trial memberships.

These are "no charge, 100% free" with different color background xsells... just have a look for yourself.

A bank has already been shut down, the one in the caribbean will be next (I am sure you know which one that is) The crap that is going through there is unbelievable.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince you, it is up to you to belive me or not, but know what they say about keeping your enemies close...

Congrats to you for paying your employees well. Maybe you can be a douche on the board and still treat your employees right... do you also tell them that they are shitstains and how much better you are than them?

BTW these guys have no affiliate programs and already traffic that dwarfs most big programs.

It is a whole new ball game...

Then I must be totally unfamiliar with what you're talking about. If I sign up for a free site with a credit card and it starts billing the next day...that's what is known as a free trial and cleverly marketed.

If you're saying that they somehow just take your money and don't show any terms that explain that it will start billing and rebilling and/or don't send you an email, then I would say you are right.

But I've never seen anything like that.

And as for the affiliate program...having a paysite doesn't mean you need an affiliate program. I almost wish I didn't have one. Affiliates don't have any traffic anymore. They are all just working Google...or even buying fucking adwords. Not exactly what an affiliate is supposed to be...more of a joke really.

But you're right...I'm ignorant of sites doing what you're reporting. Never seen it. Post a link that is unclickable so I can see one. What you're describing would be simple theft and would definitely cost them their merchant account.

If they don't have an affiliate program it isn't because of the hassle, but because their "business" is profitable enough to buy all the traffic they want. Ironically, straight from the content thieves you hate so much :2 cents: .

freedomtube.org hidden cross
http://lifestyleamateurs.com/freedomtube.jpg
http://www.complaintsboard.com/compl...m-c129917.html
Notice... it can't be unchecked or anything.

Can you point me to one? I'd like to see what the hell they are pulling.

12clicks is a miserable guy. must suck being an angry stooge

Traffic is only part of the equation.
So www.site.com may only do 10hits a day however biller.site.com may do 200 joins a day. So you look up in Alexa and say your site only does 10 hits a day, but that does not tell you how many joins a day the site is really doing.
My point being not all sales come through the front door.

All I know is that for years certain people would do the occational hitjob on 12clicks for being around as long as they had, yet not making as much money.

Then he launches his cross sale scheme that refunds everyone no questions asked that calls customer support, and he is suddenly better than everyone.

I don't know the guy, but he seemed much more humble before just going by what I saw online.

Just checked that freedomtube out nationx

Yep, that's simply a hidden x-sell. Very nasty.

<label><input name="payType" value="onedayonedollartrial4847monthly4a:creditcar d" checked="checked" type="radio"><em><strong class="red">FREE PASS </strong><span class="white">- Credit Card $0</span></em></label></td>

They hid a $1/1 day trial that rebills at 47 bucks the next day.

That's what I was saying in my post up top when I said that sites using hidden x-sells are definitely looking to have their merchant accounts yanked.

I wonder if they send an email and/or show you what happened after you sign up to at least give you a chance to cancel? There has to be something somewhere that they are hiding behind to be able to continue processing credit cards with their merchant bank right?

Anyway, yeah...this shit is totally wrong. And doesn't fit with what I was referring to as far as the wikipedia thing. This is a hidden x-sell plain and simple. And I can't see how they can legally operate like this.

I know that for our merchant accounts they grilled us, gave us anal probings, and checked us out more thoroughly than the FBI does terrorists.

And they do a "review" and check us again every year. Every site and everything.

I need to find a cool bank like these guys are using and start doing the same thing! lol
That looks like easy money...

Just kidding. Those are fucking crooks.

No, I call YOU a shitstain and remind them how much better and better paid they are than you. :thumbsup

stfu you piece of shit

There are dozens, all intertwined, just look around.

I am not here to point fingers at somebody specifically, cross sellers do what they do, all I am saying is that as the party getting shafted we shouldn't celebrate them, this is costing us hard earned cash down the road :2 cents:

Then again some might read this and think, if you can't beat them join them, cross seller will end up doing even more business :1orglaugh

I kinda mis-spoke when I called it a hidden X SELL on freedomtube

I'm not sure it is a xsell. I think it's simply a hidden sell. Period. To be a xsell it would have to be selling a membership to another site. That appears to just sell a membership to their site. But I could be wrong.

It's GOT to be illegal right?

I havent had a day job for 5 years or more... coincidentally since I started my first business in adult.

See you may be bigger than me but youre not the only one to grow multiple business in this industry.

I never said you werent a bigger fish. But your shit still stinks and your attitude is less than mine.

I guess all Im trying to say is a higher ratio of people would enjoy me over you.

Im more :pimp

I don't think it is illegal.

There is usually a second page with conditions and cross sales.

Problem is, even legal, sites are ranking in the low thousands on Alexa, bought traffic on all the tubes, with all the traffic brokers, Blacklabelads.... that is a lot of surfers you and me will never see again. :Oh crap

People went crazy with AFF "sponsoring" the tubes, these guys manage to sponsor the tubes and fuck the surfers. Double whammy :thumbsup

As long as my bills are paid on time that is all I care about... I do have some outstanding debt and am not rich by any means... but I really have no complaints. I hope to retire early and travel the world... that would be great... but I am more than comfortable in my 4 bedroom 2600 sq ft house... driving my 07 chrysler sebring, paying cash for my daughters college and not having a dipshit like you telling me what to do. If that makes you better than me then you live in fantasy land. I don't and never will need a big fancy house that cost 3-5 times as much as mine or imported car that costs 5 times more than the one I have now that serves the same purpose and I certainly do not think you are better than me in any way, shape or form. We both take shits and we both have to eat and breathe to live and when that ends it won't matter much will it?

:drinkup

word to that...

Oh okay...if they follow up with a second page that explains it all, then they can say it's just tricky advertising (I personally think it's wrong). That would explain how they get away with it.

this thread is getting a little bit more interesting.

12clicks, what is your position with all of these allegations of fraud relating to undisclosed xsales slash hidden sales?

Maybe that is why he is laying off? The position of immediately refunding every surfer that is knowledgable enough to contact the site owner on umpteen charges is no longer available because the site owner is no longer screwing the piss out of surfers...

nah... i doubt it.

What are you talking about? Ron doesn't do any of that stuff. He does regular old x-sells. The talk of hidden x-sells was off topic talk that has nothing to do with him.

You just dont understand bottom runger! Its all about wealth, success and totally awesome shirts!

Youre just too broke and tattered to understand the methods of success.

whatdidyousay? excusemenowidontunderstand?

You didn't just say good 'ol regular x-sells did you?

I just went to one of his sites.

nastypinkteens... filled out info. on the first page and got to the second. I actually saw no x-sales on either page.

So, I suppose the good 'ol x-sales are gone... huh?

Hey x-sells have been around since the beginning. But I'm not gonna get in that argument again with people. But just a hint...there are a LOT of programs out there that make the massive majority of their money from x-sells. 12clicks isn't even close to being at that level of it.

Nothing wrong with it...it's just a different and much more lucrative way to make a LOT of money.

Me? I enjoy the actual porn business too much to get into the numbers crunching game of x-sells to any extent.

For instance, about a month ago I was at Guitar Center here in Vegas and was speaking to the owner of a VERY big program that is promoted by a lot of people right here on GFY. He asked me how piracy was affecting biz. I told him the steps I had taken to stop it.

He replied that he was glad that kinda shit didn't concern him. He makes 7 figures every month on x-sells. Keep in mind...this program has about a hundred damn websites! I stopped counting them after 55 lol

He actually told me that he hadn't even LOOKED at his shit in months! And that he didn't give a fuck about any of it because the whole thing was about x-sells.

Not saying that's good or bad...just sayin'

He basically isn't even in the porn biz anymore pretty much. Yet he owns all those sites and a huge affiliate program. Wild isn't it?

Anyway, I don't really care what you think or don't think about x-sells. The fact is they are an accepted form of business that has been around since forever. If you've ever promoted paysites...then chances are you promoted x-sells and didn't even know it. Just the way it is.

DeeJ is pretty cool IMHO

I don't understand your mentality. search my name, I make my own money.

What is clear is that banging cards the legal way, or the illegal way, will certainly hurt the way CC's are processed.

Could I bang my surfer's, ... of course I could. I understand making money but what YOU do NOT understand is that I made it legit... think about that for a little

I'm not quite sure what you're even saying. And I don't care. I don't want to argue about it. Arguing about legit x-sells is like arguing over the sky being blue. It's the way it is. So you think about that for a little. "banging" lol Tell it to the airlines, hosting companies, your phone company, your own bank... We all get x-sold everyday in every way. They just don't call it "x-sell" But whatever. I'm just trying to say what is real and not real. And Ron may enjoy acting out on GFY, but he certainly doesn't do anything wrong or illegit. And neither do the 90% of the programs that run x-sells.

The 10% who don't are mostly guys who don't understand how to do it, or don't have enough volume to be able to do it, or they never heard of it. Remember this...if a person is x-sold, all they have to do is cancel and ask for their money back or do a chargeback.

But the numbers don't lie. Most of them not only never want their money back...but they rebill for a long time. The last x-sell deal I did ended in Feb. of 2008. I did mine in a revshare deal...everybody else just buys them, but I wanted to make sure there was no funny business going on.

So my deal was small potatoes. Made about 30 grand a month. And guess what? I'm STILL getting rebills off of those x-sells! Theories and assumptions are nice, but numbers don't lie.

ok... so here are my questions:

1) do you work for 12 clicks?
2) are 12 clicks x-sales cleaned up or do you get that extra something special "later" after your CC is entered?
3) if a person is X-sold and they didn't even know it, they would likely think they just got ripped off. Do you think making people feel they have been ripped off makes business sense?
4) I just went through 2 screens on 12 clicks site prior to actually entering a CC, there was no xsale on any pages. Does that make me a dumb surfer if indeed x-sales are going on after that?

So my final question is.... are there X-sales going on after those two pages when you enter your CC info... 12 clicks?

1.No, neither he nor anyone else in this business can pay me as much as I already make. And yes, that is legitimately make since you insinuated that perhaps I don't make my money the old fashioned way in your earlier post. Hell, now that James Brown is gone...I'm the hardest working man in show business baby! :1orglaugh

2. I have never done any b2b with 12clicks, but I can tell you that he is the first guy ever to be cleared by CC Bill officially to do x-sells if that means anything to you.

3. If the x-sell is done correctly they DO know it. People aren't stupid like you assume. First off IF the x-sell is legit...they get an email informing them that they have a trial membership (usually a dollar and usually for 3 days). They then have the option to cancel it before it rebills. Since 100% of people on the internet already have been in contact with x-sells in mainstream products they have bought...then I would think it to be a bit ludicrous to assume they suddenly are amazed that a x-sell may have happened to them. But yes, there are a percentage of actual dumb people out there who might. That's why God invented the CREDIT. Or if the member gets pissed off...the CHARGEBACK. Pretty simple stuff here, but if you insist on me detailing it out for you, there it is.

4. Who said 12clicks was selling x-sells? Maybe he's just buying them in bulk. That's what most companies do. Though from our conversation I'm thinking that you don't have any knowledge about this topic to understand how it works. No big deal. But anyway, if Ron is buying x-sells and not selling them then of course he doesn't have any on his sign up page. I don't want to be demeaning to you, because I think you're a good guy, but this is pretty simple stuff to understand isn't it?

I am as smart as you think I am.

I would like to know how to get ripped off... the reason being I would like to get ripped off later... ya know ;)

Damn man...either you're speaking in code to me, or I'm still fucked up from drinking too much last night! :1orglaugh

I can tell you this. At least once a week I turn down offers to buy x-sells. Not for any moral reasons. But because it can be risky if a company were to sell you hidden x-sells or even worse...cancel page x-sells. That is some crooked shit there.

But just saying... I get offers to buy up to 1000 x-sells a day at $17 a pop. Those are trial memberships. 90% of them WILL convert. And then 20 to 40% of those WILL rebill. It's a fast way to make millions of dollars. And no, I'm not one of those guys who has multiple merchant accounts. I only have one. So I can't risk losing my one account and I obviously can't shuffle merchant accounts since I only have one.

But as I told you earlier, I did do a little revshare one in 07 and the beginning of 08. Since I was VERY careful it was only about 20 to 30 x-sells a day. But it still made money, and it still makes money rebilling to this very day. Faithful members of claudia-marie.com who interact with her via email and live cam shows. Those people didn't get "ripped off", they got a good deal, discovered a site that they now love and everybody wins.

Now on the buying of x-sells...yes, you would be making good money.

BUT, you have to be able to get several merchant accounts and you have to have a programmer smart enough to script the whole thing together and make sure that no merchant account gets overloaded. AND you have to have tremendous customer support to stop chargebacks.

But you would literally have 30,000 members in one months time. You would spend $510,000 And if my numbers hold true (90%) and you charge $29.99 per membership plus a dollar for the trial you would gross $836,730 in the first month for a profit of $326,730

Then if only 30% rebill the next month you just netted $242,919 off the first month along with a nice fresh $326,730 net from your new x-sells in the new month.

Now rinse and repeat for 10 years or so and you start to get the idea of the money involved. Again, not defending it or attacking it. Just stating the facts. It's a numbers game.

As I said before, I love the porn business too much to get involved in the day to day complexities of going large on x-sells. But it is damn profitable. And in 30 years when I'm ready to retire...IF I retire I should say, I'll probably spend the last year doing exactly that to make myself a big nest egg for my family.

funny how none of 12clicks sites disclose how much their free trials rebill as.

"NOTE: All trials and monthly memberships will recur at the monthly price (USD) until cancelled."

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Criminal...g-gr-fa627.htm

Why must you post incessantly long responses in multiple threads? I don't want to hear about your old school knowledge and who you know and what you have done. I also don't want to see you jump in every thread that you feel gives you the chance to post inane responses and lengthy retorts to put people to sleep.

Congrats, you have been around a long time. Now you feel is your chance to use the board to your advantage. Great! Do it. Use it. But please stop coming across as some holier than thou that thinks because they have been around has the right to portray what is right and wrong.

A message board join date and post count means nothing. The same as how many names you can mention and who you have been associated with.

Just give it a rest already.

well all I can Say happy new year to all, welcome 2010

I still know a few, we meet regulary on Facebook! :)

Are you on FB, Ron?

If I find you, I'll sign you for Obama Fanclub!
:)

not trolling anyone, but killing time with the smile at the airport after the flight delay of 11 hours.

5 hours till a new year!

Maybe 12 clicks could join in and spew some more 2009 banter?

Holy fuck, how is that legal?