Affiliate Question -- 2257 Docs & IDs - GoFuckYourself.com

pornlaw · 08-23-2009, 09:26 AM

This issue was talked about in another thread....

How many, if any, of the big programs/sponsors are giving their affiliates the necessary 2257 docs and IDs under the new regs since secondary producers are now required to keep records as well.

Linking back to the sponsor's 2257 Notice is not compliant BTW.

Or, are most of the programs/sponsors hosting galleries now and no longer giving out content ?

Thanks....

moeloubani · 08-23-2009, 09:37 AM

can't that fall under a third party keeping the records for the affiliate, the third party being the sponsor?

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 09:49 AM

I'm sure it could, as long as the affiliate has a contract with the sponsor company designating the sponsor as the third-party recordkeeper. I'd think that this could be easily added into affiliate program T&C, though it may be better to have it separate and on paper. I'm no attorney and I'm referring back to memory on reading the latest version of the regs, though. But this is one reason why my program will only have FHGs, at least for now.

Mr. Cool Ice · 08-23-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

...is not compliant BTW.

PornLaw,
First, let me say, you have a GREAT service. A brilliant idea. So don't take this personally.

This industry was started by the Mafia, transitioned to people and companies who produced illegal porn in California (until Miller VS Cali) and other places in the USA (or world), and now rests in the hands of groups of people and companies who sell each other out, rip each other off, scam credit cards, cheat models and generally are bad people. From the DVD side to the web side, many are scumbags to the core. I'm not saying everyone is a piece of shit, but I'm saying the vast majority are. It's a mix of shit bags, risk takers and professionals. Sadly, the "professional" group is the smallest of them all.

With that said, do yo think these people worry about being compliant regarding anything, especially something that may not even become a problem? Do you think foreign webmasters give a piss about this law, regardless of they should or not?

Some of the "professionals" care. That's it. The rest are shit bags, risk takers and guys who fly by the seat of their pants, many from pay check to pay check. Getting 2257 from their sponsors is about as much of a concern as getting their colon checked.

They just don't care.

Zorgman · 08-23-2009, 10:11 AM

I do not think the 80 odd sponsors I promote are going to send me all the models ID's of all their sites. That 5000+ paysites with say 100 models each one. That's 500,000 ID's. I do not think thats something that will happen anytime soon. If so, I will be going back to text linking.

Dirty Dane · 08-23-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Cool Ice

Do you think foreign webmasters give a piss about this law, regardless of they should or not?

I think the US law enforcement gives a piss too, if the webmaster is foreign. In fact, 2257 is illegal in many countries because it contradicts with laws regarding privacy. Another problem arise when US companies, like a billing processor or host, require 2257 compliance. How the hell is a foreign webmaster supposed to comply with something that may be illegal in is own country?

pornlaw · 08-23-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

PornLaw,
First, let me say, you have a GREAT service. A brilliant idea. So don't take this personally.

Thanks and I do agree with your basic premise on the industry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

I'm sure it could, as long as the affiliate has a contract with the sponsor company designating the sponsor as the third-party recordkeeper. I'd think that this could be easily added into affiliate program T&C, though it may be better to have it separate and on paper. I'm no attorney and I'm referring back to memory on reading the latest version of the regs, though. But this is one reason why my program will only have FHGs, at least for now.

That is 100% legally correct. I am just not sure that an affiliate would want, according to Mr. Cool Ice, their personal freedom "in the hands of groups of people and companies who sell each other out, rip each other off, scam credit cards, cheat models and generally are bad people."

Would you really trust a program to handle your records as they handled their own ?

Quote:

Another problem arise when US companies, like a billing processor or host, require 2257 compliance. How the hell is a foreign webmaster supposed to comply with something that may be illegal in is own country?

Great point, but legally it is easy to get around privacy act regs in foreign countries by adding language to the model release.

Quote:

I do not think the 80 odd sponsors I promote are going to send me all the models ID's of all their sites. That 5000+ paysites with say 100 models each one. That's 500,000 ID's. I do not think thats something that will happen anytime soon. If so, I will be going back to text linking.

No probably not, but you dont need all the docs/IDs on content you arent promoting. Just the content that sits on your servers. That cuts the number back dramatically.

GatorB · 08-23-2009, 11:07 AM

I still think the whole secondary producer shit is bullshit can can be overturned if someone would push it.

Think about it, if I run a porno shop do I need 2257 docs for all the models in the movies I sell, rent or show in the private booths? No. Yet if I have the EXACT SAME movies on my website I do? Does this follow any logic whatsoever? The only people that know the girl is over 18 is the original producer. And if she's underage they could just very easily give me fake docs saying she's legal. So me having docs proves nothing and wastes everyones time. If the feds think some chick is under 18 why the fuck not go straight to the source? Isn't it easier to check with the actual producer of the movie than perhaps the 1000 websites that are showing that movie?

Dirty Dane · 08-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Great point, but legally it is easy to get around privacy act regs in foreign countries by adding language to the model release.

Well, models are not the problem I'm thinking of. 2257 requires you to put your name and place for inspection on your website (which of course make no sense if you live abroad), but no one can force you to do that because it contradicts with privacy rights. If US hosts or billing processors (those handling both affiliates and paysites) require everyone to comply 100% with US laws, they also require affiliates (as secondary producers) to do that. And what's the point in doing it really - US law enforcement can't make inspections abroad? So "Linking back to the sponsor's 2257 Notice is not compliant BTW." would at least be as compliant as possible, regarding foreign secondary producers... wouldn't it? Something is better than nothing.

On a sidenote: If 2257 is creating barriers between U.S. and foreign companies, the way it contradicts, isn't 2257 itself then non-compliant with international trade agreements?
Besides the constutional princip "innocent until proven guilty", I can't see 2257 nothing else than a political tool against adult industry - bot in U.S. .. AND international trade of it. A law "designed" to avoid people breaking another more serious laws... give me a break

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

That is 100% legally correct. I am just not sure that an affiliate would want, according to Mr. Cool Ice, their personal freedom "in the hands of groups of people and companies who sell each other out, rip each other off, scam credit cards, cheat models and generally are bad people."

Would you really trust a program to handle your records as they handled their own ?

I can agree to a point on that. However, your point becomes tainted when it's used purely to shill your own service. But that wouldn't have been your original reason for starting this thread, would it...?

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

I can agree to a point on that. However, your point becomes tainted when it's used purely to shill your own service. But that wouldn't have been your original reason for starting this thread, would it...?

He's not shilling anything, he is starting a discussion, which is the point of any message board, isn't it? He is a lawyer speaking from his area of expertise, how exactly is that tainting anything?

You've obviously never sat in a jail cell, or in front of a judge and jury deciding you freedom, over something you have sold that someone decided to get a stick up their ass over on that particular day and arrest you for. I have, and it is not a pleasant experience, and if it does ever happen to you you'd appreciate any good advice you could get from an attorney...

Mr. Cool Ice · 08-23-2009, 12:26 PM

I also don't think the powers that be will do large scale inspections. Like they did with the DVD industry, they may do a few, rattle a cage here or there, and then find better things to do.

Even the DVD companies that were in violation, were given a chance to correct the issues. It's not like they are coming in guns a blazing. At least not yet anyway.

Mr. Cool Ice · 08-23-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Dane

I think the US law enforcement gives a piss too, if the webmaster is foreign. In fact, 2257 is illegal in many countries because it contradicts with laws regarding privacy. Another problem arise when US companies, like a billing processor or host, require 2257 compliance. How the hell is a foreign webmaster supposed to comply with something that may be illegal in is own country?

US does not and can not enforce much of anything outside of its borders unless there is oil involved. Even then, they are not very good at it. They certainly are not going to look into any website or webmaster, who is foreign, in regards to if he is 2257 compliant or not. That's as absurd as saying they are going to crack down on foreign tourists in Amsterdam for smoking weed, because it's illegal (in most states) in the USA.

Sure, one world American order may be coming sooner or later, but it's not here yet.

epitome · 08-23-2009, 12:48 PM

I like thought provoking threads like this one.

So, according to the new regs, if you thumbnail and host on your server and/or make even the slightest modification to a tiny file, are you then a secondary producer?

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

He's not shilling anything, he is starting a discussion, which is the point of any message board, isn't it? He is a lawyer speaking from his area of expertise, how exactly is that tainting anything?

You've obviously never sat in a jail cell, or in front of a judge and jury deciding you freedom, over something you have sold that someone decided to get a stick up their ass over on that particular day and arrest you for. I have, and it is not a pleasant experience, and if it does ever happen to you you'd appreciate any good advice you could get from an attorney...

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

I don't have a cavalier attitude when it comes to my freedom. You want light, stick to the would you hit it threads. This isn't one of them...

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

I don't have a cavalier attitude when it comes to my freedom. You want light, stick to the would you hit it threads. This isn't one of them...

Boy aren't you the fuckin' ray of sunshine. I was referring to him saying "Would you really trust a program to handle your records as they handled their own ?" which, as any marketer knows, would be followed with "Our program... etc." I was giving him a gentle prod. Dial it down, Braveheart.

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

Boy aren't you the fuckin' ray of sunshine. I was referring to him saying "Would you really trust a program to handle your records as they handled their own ?" which, as any marketer knows, would be followed with "Our program... etc." I was giving him a gentle prod. Dial it down, Braveheart.

Awww, did you get your little feelings hurt? Don't be mad, son.

You said he was just shilling his service, and that tainted his point that you shouldn't trust program owners to handle records that you are ultimately responsible for when many of them can barely keep their own shit together. How exactly is his point tainted? He is right, in the end you can only count on yourself to cover your own ass...

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

Awww, did you get your little feelings hurt? Don't be mad, son.

You said he was just shilling his service, and that tainted his point that you shouldn't trust program owners to handle records that you are ultimately responsible for when many of them can barely keep their own shit together. How exactly is his point tainted? He is right, in the end you can only count on yourself to cover your own ass...

Nah, no hurt feelings, mom. My side hurts a bit from laughing at you getting your panties all in a firey twist, though. But I'll get over that.

I'm a bit concerned that you might pop a vein from the skyrocketing blood pressure though. It's ok, I'm sure Michael can hold his own on this one without you being his personal Mighty Mouse. You can relax now, cool down, think about fluffy kittens.

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

Nah, no hurt feelings, mom. My side hurts a bit from laughing at you getting your panties all in a firey twist, though. But I'll get over that.

I'm a bit concerned that you might pop a vein from the skyrocketing blood pressure though. It's ok, I'm sure Michael can hold his own on this one without you being his personal Mighty Mouse. You can relax now, cool down, think about fluffy kittens.

Your feelings really did get hurt, that's so cute...

You seem to be having some trouble, so let me explain to you how internet message boards work, so that you don't have this same issue in the future.

Sometimes you make a statement that other people disagree with, and in turn they tell you why they disagree with it. You don't get to pick and choose who reads and responds to what you write. You see how that works?

You made a stupid statement, I disagreed with it. No one is getting their panties in a wad except you, so try and take a little of your own advice...

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

Your feelings really did get hurt, that's so cute...

You seem to be having some trouble, so let me explain to you how internet message boards work, so that you don't have this same issue in the future.

Sometimes you make a statement that other people disagree with, and in turn they tell you why they disagree with it. You don't get to pick and choose who reads and responds to what you write. You see how that works?

You made a stupid statement, I disagreed with it. No one is getting their panties in a wad except you, so try and take a little of your own advice...

You win, you're a better keyboard warrior than me. No sense in trying to explain degrees of response. Every board's got one. Back to the discussion at hand.

pornlaw · 08-23-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Think about it, if I run a porno shop do I need 2257 docs for all the models in the movies I sell, rent or show in the private booths? No. Yet if I have the EXACT SAME movies on my website I do? Does this follow any logic whatsoever? The only people that know the girl is over 18 is the original producer.

Part of 2257 is so that not only can the DOJ/FBI determine the age of a performer, but it is also to be able to remove the underage content quickly from the open market. Having secondary producers keep records is a way of acheiving that goal. I dont buy it, but its their plausible excuse. The reason why the analogy doesnt work with a porno shop is because if XXX DVD Company sells a movie, they usually have records as to who they sold movies to and thus a sale involving a underage model can be traced to a store with a request that the movie be pulled off the shelf.

Without giving docs to secondary and without keeping records of whom gets that content, if XXX Internet Company shoots an underage model there may be no way of knowing to whom the content has been distributed and it cannot be removed from the market.

Quote:

So, according to the new regs, if you thumbnail and host on your server and/or make even the slightest modification to a tiny file, are you then a secondary producer?

You are the secondary producer as soon as you host the thumbnail. Modifications make no difference in that analysis. The modification analysis really only applies to ISPs/tubes/social networking sites and whether they monitor/alter the content thus making them liable as a secondary producer.

Quote:

I can agree to a point on that. However, your point becomes tainted when it's used purely to shill your own service. But that wouldn't have been your original reason for starting this thread, would it...?

Its more about education than shilling. But if someone learns something about 2257 and decides that www.2257Safe.com is a good investment I wont complain.

Quote:

They certainly are not going to look into any website or webmaster, who is foreign, in regards to if he is 2257 compliant or not.

Thats true and Agent Joyner even said as much at the 2007 Hollywood XBiz show.

Quote:

I also don't think the powers that be will do large scale inspections. Like they did with the DVD industry, they may do a few, rattle a cage here or there, and then find better things to do.

They do, but one inspection of a large program/sponsor could result in violations by hundreds of affiliates. A sweep resulting in hundreds/thousands of sites being shut down would appeal to the conservative right wing. A DVD company inspection will only amount to one company being in violation. Not that sexy.

Quote:

I have, and it is not a pleasant experience, and if it does ever happen to you you'd appreciate any good advice you could get from an attorney...

Thank you. I have been in many jails on visiting side of the bars and it is not a fun place to be even to visit. Not many in the industry have had that experience and I suppose that is why they are not too concerned with most of laws. Most people I advise are standing on the shoulders of giants -- the guys that did spend time in jail fighting for First Amendment rights so that those on this board can make money off an industry that a mere 20 yrs ago was completely illegal.

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 06:57 PM

I dont understand you can be a third party custodian of record but the sponsor of the affiliate cant? Hmmm interesting.

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Its more about education than shilling. But if someone learns something about 2257 and decides that www.2257Safe.com is a good investment I wont complain.

That is totally fair enough and agreed. Clearer heads prevail.

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

I dont understand you can be a third party custodian of record but the sponsor of the affiliate cant? Hmmm interesting.

Contractual agreement. Check the terms laid out in 2257 for third-party custodians and you'll see. It's actually pretty straightforward if you're used to reading legalese.

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

Contractual agreement. Check the terms laid out in 2257 for third-party custodians and you'll see. It's actually pretty straightforward if you're used to reading legalese.

so sponsors couldnt amend their agreements?

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

so sponsors couldnt amend their agreements?

I mentioned that above and Michael commented on it as well. Probably best to have a separate agreement, and it comes down to "who do you trust."

epitome · 08-23-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Thank you. I have been in many jails on visiting side of the bars and it is not a fun place to be even to visit. Not many in the industry have had that experience and I suppose that is why they are not too concerned with most of laws. Most people I advise are standing on the shoulders of giants -- the guys that did spend time in jail fighting for First Amendment rights so that those on this board can make money off an industry that a mere 20 yrs ago was completely illegal.

A public thank you to you and the people you represent and will represent on behalf of the industry as a whole.

epitome · 08-23-2009, 07:14 PM

I will say this much ... I smell a big opportunity brewing in this thread.

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Thank you. I have been in many jails on visiting side of the bars and it is not a fun place to be even to visit. Not many in the industry have had that experience and I suppose that is why they are not too concerned with most of laws. Most people I advise are standing on the shoulders of giants -- the guys that did spend time in jail fighting for First Amendment rights so that those on this board can make money off an industry that a mere 20 yrs ago was completely illegal.

The first time I was ever arrested was for promoting prostitution, and it was a fucking nightmare. This was before we had retained Louis Sirkin, and we had a local attorney that was pretty much worthless. We had the old dancer peep shows in our arcade area, and on that particular day the undercover vice officers went into the back, did a show with one of the girls, and then arrested her for prostitution because, in their opinion, even though she was on one side of the glass and the male officer was on another, they paid her to masturbate, which was supposed to be paying for a sexual act.

I got called in, and they immediately arrested me for promoting prostitution, even though I had independent contractor agreements with all the dancers that stated they weren't my employees. I was taken down to the Montgomery County Jail in Dayton, Ohio and booked, and was then told there was no bail until I saw a judge, which probably wouldn't be until Monday (this was a Friday night).

I was put in a cell block filled with drug dealers, armed robbers, and various other criminals, most of whom I saw every day because they lived in the violent housing project that was next door to my store, Parkside Homes. I'm a pretty big guy and can take care of myself, but being in a county jail full of violent criminals is a whole different fucking world.

Eventually my attorney showed up, and they were able to get me in front of a judge the next morning, so I only ended up spending the night that first time (in the future I wouldn't be so lucky). What worse is the judge agreed that i did nothing wrong and released me, so I now had an arrest on my record and spent the night in jail, and all because vice decided it was time to start fucking with us.

People have no clue how one cop with an axe to grind can change your whole world in an instant...

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Part of 2257 is so that not only can the DOJ/FBI determine the age of a performer, but it is also to be able to remove the underage content quickly from the open market. Having secondary producers keep records is a way of acheiving that goal. I dont buy it, but its their plausible excuse. The reason why the analogy doesnt work with a porno shop is because if XXX DVD Company sells a movie, they usually have records as to who they sold movies to and thus a sale involving a underage model can be traced to a store with a request that the movie be pulled off the shelf.

Without giving docs to secondary and without keeping records of whom gets that content, if XXX Internet Company shoots an underage model there may be no way of knowing to whom the content has been distributed and it cannot be removed from the market.

You are the secondary producer as soon as you host the thumbnail. Modifications make no difference in that analysis. The modification analysis really only applies to ISPs/tubes/social networking sites and whether they monitor/alter the content thus making them liable as a secondary producer.

Its more about education than shilling. But if someone learns something about 2257 and decides that www.2257Safe.com is a good investment I wont complain.

Thats true and Agent Joyner even said as much at the 2007 Hollywood XBiz show.

They do, but one inspection of a large program/sponsor could result in violations by hundreds of affiliates. A sweep resulting in hundreds/thousands of sites being shut down would appeal to the conservative right wing. A DVD company inspection will only amount to one company being in violation. Not that sexy.

Thank you. I have been in many jails on visiting side of the bars and it is not a fun place to be even to visit. Not many in the industry have had that experience and I suppose that is why they are not too concerned with most of laws. Most people I advise are standing on the shoulders of giants -- the guys that did spend time in jail fighting for First Amendment rights so that those on this board can make money off an industry that a mere 20 yrs ago was completely illegal.

porn has been safe since 1989 because in 1993 clinton came and saw it as unimportant. Think about it when was the last case porn actually won? If 911 didn't happen porn would of been job one for Mr Ashcroft. That's why when I hear the right wingers here wanting republicans in power. if there isnt something else to keep them busy we will be seriously fucked on a level most cant imagine.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 07:32 PM

I will not host any sponsor content without seeing the docs. The secondary producer does not need to verify the accuracy of the docs, but he must verify that the docs are available and that the sponsor indicates they are accurate.

After I have viewed them or received copies, I will be content to list a sponsor as the custodian of records if there is a written agreement between that sponsor and myself to that effect.

If I have not seen the documents, I do not believe can say I have done my due diligence. Having copies on hand simplifies that issue.

And yes, I have the 2257safe banner in my sig, but I guarantee you that is not the reason for my stand on this issue.

This statement taken from the DOJ Q and A on 2257 compliance is the reason I feel the way I do.......Ohhh and I don't wish to do time or pay large fines........

Q. Is a secondary producer required to check identification documents of performers?

A. A secondary producer is not required to check identification requirements. The secondary producer is required to maintain records that identify the primary producer for any depiction and that verify that the primary producer checked the legal age of performers prior to the date of original production.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/optf/l...nce-guide.html

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 07:32 PM

by the way micheal when my office lease is up in a year I will be comin a callin.

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Profits of Doom

People have no clue how one cop with an axe to grind can change your whole world in an instant...

I actually do know the feeling, though in a different area of business. That's one reason I had to laugh at the assumption you made above. We actually see eye to eye on the subject, you just took what I wrote waaaaay more seriously than it was intended.

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Billy

I will not host any sponsor content without seeing the docs. The secondary producer does not need to verify the accuracy of the docs, but he must verify that the docs are available and that the sponsor indicates they are accurate.

After I have viewed them or received copies, I will be content to list a sponsor as the custodian of records if there is a written agreement between that sponsor and myself to that effect.

If I have not seen the documents, I do not believe can say I have done my due diligence. Having copies on hand simplifies that issue.

And yes, I have the 2257safe banner in my sig, but I guarantee you that is not the reason for my stand on this issue.

This statement taken from the DOJ Q and A on 2257 compliance is the reason I feel the way I do.......Ohhh and I don't wish to do time or pay large fines........

Q. Is a secondary producer required to check identification documents of performers?

A. A secondary producer is not required to check identification requirements. The secondary producer is required to maintain records that identify the primary producer for any depiction and that verify that the primary producer checked the legal age of performers prior to the date of original production.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/optf/l...nce-guide.html

This is an excellent practice. I would add that it applies just as well to licensed content as it does to sponsor content.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

This is an excellent practice. I would add that it applies just as well to licensed content as it does to sponsor content.

I am on this one with you. I totally agree and there are some very good content providers who do not provide the docs. For one example Max Pixels. They do not provide the model release. It is really upsetting because there is some great content out there for a niche that I cannot use.

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 08:03 PM

I think if affiliates are given info then the signing up to be an affiliate has to become much more involved than it is today.

Iron Fist · 08-23-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Its more about education than shilling. But if someone learns something about 2257 and decides that www.2257Safe.com is a good investment I wont complain.

I have to admit.. awesome front page images.... does anyone still use tape reels in their datacenter?

mikesouth · 08-23-2009, 08:07 PM

if there is any real justice left in this country this law will be struck down eventually

Face it the government is requiring you to PROVE that you did not commit a crime THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

All the will forcing you to surrender your 4th amendment rights in the process.

I can not believe that good attorneys cant have a field day with this travesty...Its a joke.

Or at least it should be.

DonovanTrent · 08-23-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

if there is any real justice left in this country this law will be struck down eventually

Face it the government is requiring you to PROVE that you did not commit a crime THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

All the will forcing you to surrender your 4th amendment rights in the process.

I can not believe that good attorneys cant have a field day with this travesty...Its a joke.

Or at least it should be.

I have no problem with age verification and record-keeping, we SHOULD have to do that. But it could be so simple, it's far more draconian than it needs to be.

tony286 · 08-23-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonovanTrent

I have no problem with age verification and record-keeping, we SHOULD have to do that. But it could be so simple, it's far more draconian than it needs to be.

I agree papers in a simple folder no more. but this was redone to fuck with us nothing more

pornlaw · 08-23-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

I dont understand you can be a third party custodian of record but the sponsor of the affiliate cant? Hmmm interesting.

Yes they can...

Quote:

Contractual agreement. Check the terms laid out in 2257 for third-party custodians and you'll see. It's actually pretty straightforward if you're used to reading legalese.

And thats how they can...

Quote:

I will not host any sponsor content without seeing the docs. The secondary producer does not need to verify the accuracy of the docs, but he must verify that the docs are available and that the sponsor indicates they are accurate.

After I have viewed them or received copies, I will be content to list a sponsor as the custodian of records if there is a written agreement between that sponsor and myself to that effect.

If I have not seen the documents, I do not believe can say I have done my due diligence. Having copies on hand simplifies that issue.

And that is how everyone should be doing it. This is the best advice I have ever seen anyone give on this issue.

Quote:

by the way micheal when my office lease is up in a year I will be comin a callin.

Thanks... we will be here waiting for ya.

Quote:

I can not believe that good attorneys cant have a field day with this travesty...Its a joke.

This version is going to be even tougher to overturn - even in a lower court ruling. 2257 is not going anywhere anytime soon. They will just keep redrafting it until they out legislate the industry.

Quote:

I have to admit.. awesome front page images.... does anyone still use tape reels in their datacenter?

Hahaha... I never noticed that. I will tell Dan to get some stock photographs from at least the 90s to use on the site.

So far no sponsor/program guys in here on this thread. I would love to hear from their side of the equation.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

I think if affiliates are given info then the signing up to be an affiliate has to become much more involved than it is today.

Tony, as a smaller home webmaster, I totally accept and agree with that, if it is necessary. As it stands I promote porn on the internet. I must understand and comply with certain regulations and I must make myself available to the DOJ, and other regulatory bodies as necessary. I have no objection to allowing a sponsor to know more about me as may be needed and to signing updated agreements to safeguard model ID and other information that may be provided to me in the process of doing business.

The affiliates who may be hurt by this are those who really wanted to operate on a more anonymous basis. And some in this group of webmasters are fly by night or have operations that border on the illegal. Some of these guys give sponsors headaches anyway.

I choose to operate within the law as I understand it, and I signed up to use 2257safe, because even though I keep the records, I prefer the investigations to take place away from my home. I prefer not to have my neighbors see the cars drive up and the men in suits standing outside my door. lol I'm not hiding though. The investigators will be provided with all of my information and of course, if anything is amiss in my record keeping they I assume they would pay me a visit or at least contact me.

As for sponsor content I would like to use, after I have received the documents, the sponsor can contract with me to be the custodian, or I can keep the records in my account at 2257safe.

It is a pretty easy deal to work out.

BSleazy · 08-23-2009, 09:16 PM

I think most affiliates don't give a shit.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 09:24 PM

I need to add here that I do not want to come off as a shill for 2257safe.

To be honest here they are the first sig I have flown here on GFY. I do it because they are new and I might get a few sales out of it and I use them.

As for my posts here on the subject of 2257 they are how I feel as a webmaster.
I am drooling over so much sponsor content that I am honestly afraid to use.

I hope that sponsors listen to me because as a smaller affiliate webmaster, if we can get this worked out I can really do some promotion.

As for 2257safe, you upload the 2257 docs into your account and if there is an investigation, it happens at their office not yours. Their system is designed to keep the records in a manner that makes them easily accessible during an investigation and to help the investigator find the information they are looking for quickly. Thus it is probably better than the systems that many small webmasters would keep at home, and it is quite possibly easier to use than the systems many of the large sponsors currently use at their places of business.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCyber

I think most affiliates don't give a shit.

From what I see on the web It looks that way. To be honest with you however, I simply do not think many of them are aware of the chance they are taking.

BSleazy · 08-23-2009, 09:26 PM

No affiliates are going to jail either for not keeping these ridiculous records. This might be used to add more charges on someone being charged or wanted on other shit though.

I'm guessing if you're pushing that real borderline underage type stuff you would want these records though to protect yourself.

Mr. Billy · 08-23-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCyber

No affiliates are going to jail either for not keeping these ridiculous records. This might be used to add more charges on someone being charged or wanted on other shit though.

I'm guessing if you're pushing that real borderline underage type stuff you would want these records though to protect yourself.

All you need to do is ask yourself are you ok with what would happen if you are investigated.

If you are comfortable with that then I guess can do as you please.

BSleazy · 08-23-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Billy

All you need to do is ask yourself are you ok with what would happen if you are investigated.

If you are comfortable with that then I guess can do as you please.

Where are the docs on the violation penalties?

Profits of Doom · 08-23-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCyber

No affiliates are going to jail either for not keeping these ridiculous records. This might be used to add more charges on someone being charged or wanted on other shit though.

I never thought I would go to jail for running porn stores and strip clubs, but I did, many times.

Here's the thing, you are right in that the DOJ is probably never going to target you as an affiliate. They have their hands full just trying to investigate all the content producers if they wanted to go that route.

But I seem to remember you posting quite a few threads about how you have married women taking showers at you place after you banged them. What does that have to do with it, you ask? Well, maybe one of their husband's find out that they are cheating with you. Maybe that same husband also heard that you work in porn because you said something to a friend that he also happens to know.

Let's say that same husband also has a friend that is a cop, and he tells that cop that he heard you deal in underage porn. Sure it's a lie, but it's the pretext the cop needs to show up at you door and say he is on a call investigating underage porn. So what if that cop did his homework, and after looking over your computer he realizes you have been hosting content on your server without proper 2257 documentation? You get arrested, and you suddenly have a world of shit to deal with because you couldn't keep your mouth shut.

Think it can't happen? Think again...don't ever underestimate someone that doesn't like you, or someone that you have done wrong, going out of their way to make your life a living hell, all within the law. It happens all the time, and it has nothing to do with the DOJ investigating a content producer for 2257 records, but it ends up the same way...

08-23-2009, 09:26 AM	#1
pornlaw Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,880	Affiliate Question -- 2257 Docs & IDs This issue was talked about in another thread.... How many, if any, of the big programs/sponsors are giving their affiliates the necessary 2257 docs and IDs under the new regs since secondary producers are now required to keep records as well. Linking back to the sponsor's 2257 Notice is not compliant BTW. Or, are most of the programs/sponsors hosting galleries now and no longer giving out content ? Thanks.... __________________ Michael www.AdultBizLaw.com

08-23-2009, 09:49 AM	#3
DonovanTrent Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 968	I'm sure it could, as long as the affiliate has a contract with the sponsor company designating the sponsor as the third-party recordkeeper. I'd think that this could be easily added into affiliate program T&C, though it may be better to have it separate and on paper. I'm no attorney and I'm referring back to memory on reading the latest version of the regs, though. But this is one reason why my program will only have FHGs, at least for now. __________________ Donovan Trent

08-23-2009, 10:11 AM	#5
Zorgman Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 6,103	I do not think the 80 odd sponsors I promote are going to send me all the models ID's of all their sites. That 5000+ paysites with say 100 models each one. That's 500,000 ID's. I do not think thats something that will happen anytime soon. If so, I will be going back to text linking. __________________ ---

08-23-2009, 06:57 PM	#23
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I dont understand you can be a third party custodian of record but the sponsor of the affiliate cant? Hmmm interesting. Last edited by tony299; 08-23-2009 at 07:00 PM..

08-23-2009, 07:32 PM	#32
Mr. Billy Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 467	I will not host any sponsor content without seeing the docs. The secondary producer does not need to verify the accuracy of the docs, but he must verify that the docs are available and that the sponsor indicates they are accurate. After I have viewed them or received copies, I will be content to list a sponsor as the custodian of records if there is a written agreement between that sponsor and myself to that effect. If I have not seen the documents, I do not believe can say I have done my due diligence. Having copies on hand simplifies that issue. And yes, I have the 2257safe banner in my sig, but I guarantee you that is not the reason for my stand on this issue. This statement taken from the DOJ Q and A on 2257 compliance is the reason I feel the way I do.......Ohhh and I don't wish to do time or pay large fines........ Q. Is a secondary producer required to check identification documents of performers? A. A secondary producer is not required to check identification requirements. The secondary producer is required to maintain records that identify the primary producer for any depiction and that verify that the primary producer checked the legal age of performers prior to the date of original production. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/optf/l...nce-guide.html __________________ Last edited by Mr. Billy; 08-23-2009 at 07:33 PM..

08-23-2009, 09:37 AM	#2
moeloubani Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ontario Posts: 4,235	can't that fall under a third party keeping the records for the affiliate, the third party being the sponsor?

08-23-2009, 11:07 AM	#8
GatorB The Demon & 12clicks Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: SallyRand is a FAGGOT Posts: 18,208	I still think the whole secondary producer shit is bullshit can can be overturned if someone would push it. Think about it, if I run a porno shop do I need 2257 docs for all the models in the movies I sell, rent or show in the private booths? No. Yet if I have the EXACT SAME movies on my website I do? Does this follow any logic whatsoever? The only people that know the girl is over 18 is the original producer. And if she's underage they could just very easily give me fake docs saying she's legal. So me having docs proves nothing and wastes everyones time. If the feds think some chick is under 18 why the fuck not go straight to the source? Isn't it easier to check with the actual producer of the movie than perhaps the 1000 websites that are showing that movie?

08-23-2009, 12:26 PM	#12
Mr. Cool Ice Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,289	I also don't think the powers that be will do large scale inspections. Like they did with the DVD industry, they may do a few, rattle a cage here or there, and then find better things to do. Even the DVD companies that were in violation, were given a chance to correct the issues. It's not like they are coming in guns a blazing. At least not yet anyway.

08-23-2009, 12:48 PM	#14
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,156	I like thought provoking threads like this one. So, according to the new regs, if you thumbnail and host on your server and/or make even the slightest modification to a tiny file, are you then a secondary producer?

08-23-2009, 07:14 PM	#29
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,156	I will say this much ... I smell a big opportunity brewing in this thread.

08-23-2009, 08:03 PM	#37
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I think if affiliates are given info then the signing up to be an affiliate has to become much more involved than it is today.

08-23-2009, 08:07 PM	#39
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,334	if there is any real justice left in this country this law will be struck down eventually Face it the government is requiring you to PROVE that you did not commit a crime THAT NEVER HAPPENED. All the will forcing you to surrender your 4th amendment rights in the process. I can not believe that good attorneys cant have a field day with this travesty...Its a joke. Or at least it should be. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

08-23-2009, 09:16 PM	#44
BSleazy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,721	I think most affiliates don't give a shit. __________________ icq 156131086

08-23-2009, 09:24 PM	#45
Mr. Billy Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 467	I need to add here that I do not want to come off as a shill for 2257safe. To be honest here they are the first sig I have flown here on GFY. I do it because they are new and I might get a few sales out of it and I use them. As for my posts here on the subject of 2257 they are how I feel as a webmaster. I am drooling over so much sponsor content that I am honestly afraid to use. I hope that sponsors listen to me because as a smaller affiliate webmaster, if we can get this worked out I can really do some promotion. As for 2257safe, you upload the 2257 docs into your account and if there is an investigation, it happens at their office not yours. Their system is designed to keep the records in a manner that makes them easily accessible during an investigation and to help the investigator find the information they are looking for quickly. Thus it is probably better than the systems that many small webmasters would keep at home, and it is quite possibly easier to use than the systems many of the large sponsors currently use at their places of business. __________________

08-23-2009, 09:26 PM	#47
BSleazy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,721	No affiliates are going to jail either for not keeping these ridiculous records. This might be used to add more charges on someone being charged or wanted on other shit though. I'm guessing if you're pushing that real borderline underage type stuff you would want these records though to protect yourself. __________________ icq 156131086