STFU you fucking imbecile. No doubt infinitely more people care about their countrymen being killed than reading your inane dribble.

People in this thread saying its all about Obama are ignorant. Many of the people that go to these town meetings were yelling about Bush, that is fact. More people are sick of both sides than you think and just want the government to leave them the fuck alone. :2 cents:

nice to see people acting patriotic

You have a point there... but in reality, if the government didn't offer the services it does, our infrastructure would simply fall apart and we would revert to being a third world country... if you doubt that then you really don't have a clue.

The Federal Government is really a direct response to the needs of the people... government isn't the problem... Reagan was wrong when he said that and the real problem lies with the people in the government who politicize every issue and play to the polls instead of governing with common sense. I will grant that common sense will probably never play a majority role in what government does... but that is a reflection of the people as well... because you can't even begin to tell me that the majority of people use common sense... we are in a society where common sense is the minority and TV Land mentality is the majority. If you want to call me an elitist for saying that the majority of Americans are idiots... than you can do so... it doesn't reduce the pure FACT that it's the truth.

The real truth is that the majority of the American people don't use logic or education to decide where they stand on issues... most don't even pay attention. If they DO know something about an issue it is typically whatever they heard from some talking head or from a friend. Yuppies are the worst... they take positions just like politicians do... you can typically make an accurate judgment of where they stand by who their friends are, where they work or where they go to church because they will mirror their environment. This is why I refer to them as sheep (sheeple).

As far as Health Care, there are very legitimate arguments to be made for and against the current proposals... there is no doubt about it. However, I think that anyone that says that the status quo is better than trying to make a positive change needs some education. The current Republican arguments are just ridiculous, typically false and say ALOT about those that repeat those talking points. Those false arguments from the right are every bit as wrong as the raging left who have been attacking Blue Dogs and Obama for not insisting on a public option or pushing a single payer solution. DailyKos is FULL of those type of diaries.

I can make arguments for AND against the current healthcare proposals that are based on real facts and not bullshit talking points. Here are a few that are legitimate arguments against them... I don't think I need to argue for it because alot of people are alreqady making great arguments for the proposals.

Legitimate Arguments Against Health Care Reform (as proposed):

1. The current proposals claim that we could realize a $500B savings from the current Medicare program. This would be accomplished by eliminating fraud and waste as well as evolving the program to focus on preventative care and standardizing treatments based on the consensus of the medical experts on what works best rather than paying based on services rendered. The problem I see with this is that, without Tort Reform, it exposes huge risks to physicians who typically do alot of extra (and typically unnecessary) tests in order to create a paper trail to prevent malpractice claims. The number one reason for the increase in health care costs in the US is malpractice insurance costs that consumers end up paying as part of the service charges from care. We need Tort reform so that doctors aren't paying $30K-100K/year in malpractice insurance premiums and adding to the cost of health care services.

2. Although the bill does not provide any health care for illegal immigrants, it SHOULD require that illegals provide proof of residence and ID (foreign or domestic) so that they could be identified as illegal immigrants. I don't think that this would be such a hard thing to accomplish as part of the electronic records part of reform. It's the same basic premise behind requiring them to get drivers licenses. It's about identifying who they are and where they reside. This data should be reviewed by immigration authorities and we should start enforcing our immigration laws.

3. The public option should only provide basic coverage and no more. This isn't really an argument against the public option... but it seems to me that the current proposal to provide a public option makes sense because it provides a cheaper means to provide coverage to people who can't afford coverage... but it should only provide basic coverage. This would make it easy for private insurers to compete with it while preventing subsidy to those same private insurers that would cost more. It's a proven fact that the administration costs of Medicare are way lower than those of the private insurers and there is savings to be realized there as we cover those who can't afford coverage. The problem with the current proposal is that it doesn't explicitly make it clear that it would only provide basic coverage.

There are a few more arguments that could be made against the current proposals... but none of them have anything to do with the bullshit coming from the right wing spin machine.

That was refreshing, Nation-X. Nice to see some thought out points.

Numbers 2 and 3, I have no problems with. I don't know for sure that tort reform would have as big an impact as you think, but it probably wouldn't hurt as long as it isn't left to the rabidly anti-lawyer crew to work out the details. There still needs to be legal recourse for patients.

Nice post, and shout-free!

Things that should be done before the government takes any more action towards any single payer.

1) Allow insurance companies to sell over state lines.

2) Make insurance contracts longer than a year. Make them like term life. 5, 10, 20 year plans.

3) Massive tax cuts for employers who pay for employees health insurance.

4) Massive tax cuts for self-employed people when they buy health insurance.

5) Massive tax breaks for doctors who treat people for a discount or free.

Lets do a couple of these things before the government tries to take over health care.

I don't think we will ever see a single payer health care system in the US.... and every one of your points has nothing to do with single payer because that would pretty much eliminate health insurance companies as a general rule in the sense that they would be offering secondary coverage and not primary coverage.

Thanks... as far as Tort reform... I am referring to taking steps to reduce frivilous lawsuits... which are a huge drain on the system and guidelines for awards so that awards aren't given based on emotion but real damages + limited awards for emotional distress. Awarding someone $500 million just isn't realistic and only enriches lawyers in the end.

You're an idiot.


It had to be said.

Liberals and conservatives alike can agree on this fine point. :thumbsup

I don't think anyone would have a problem if EVERYONE that got government health care served in the military. If you can't see the difference between giving benefits to a fucking veteran and some welfare case, well, I don't even know what to say.

He is making a bigger point than that... he is saying that neither one should be referred to as a nazi policy... that label is stupid.

This is exactlly what most people fail to realize. The difference is at least with the govt, any denials for treatment would be open to the public scrutiny via freedom of information act if nothing else.

Meanwhile if a private insurance company whom you pay a premium to denies you treatment, you have to spend countless tens of thousands of dollars and years trying to sue them. In the end if you are lucky and haven't died of what ever ailed you, you might win against their hundreds of lawyers, but likely winning the lottery is a better chance.

The people applauding are stupid.

Every alegation he makes isn't based on facts. He's irrelevant.

I think we all agree that a veteran should get benefits for life. It's the least we can do. But it does seem a tad hypocritical when there is a rallying cry against socialism from someone in a socialized military receiving socialized health benefits. I guess socialism is OK as long as it pays his bills.

Oh come on. Where was this outrage when we were massively expanding Medicare a few years back?

I would add removing restrictions on where you can buy your prescribed drugs from and allowing a truly free market in the pharmaceutical trade. Time for other countries to start paying for R&D.

What fucking tard. I don't care if he's a "vet". it's funny how vets and old people are bitching about government run heathcare when they are the biggest recipients of it and if you ever talk about taking it away they'd start a riot. Yet somehow it sucks. Hmmm ok.

he says "stay away form my kids" Hey then take you fucking kids out of public school moron and put then in private school. I can 100% guarantee if the federal governemnt stop giving money to public schools this tard would be the first to bitch about school budget cuts.

About 45 seconds of this tard was all I could stand so I'm not sure what other retarded things he was tlaking baout.

This is the kind of stuff Obama should be saying if he wants to convince people of anything. Whoever's advising him on what to say at appearances needs to get their head checked. He's playing too much defense when he should be playing offense.

See this is what I mean about ignorance. See being self employed I can tell you 100% of the health insuarance I buy is tax deductable. And has been for YEARS. So no need to do this it already exists.

Wait is that you that site, or are you just reposting it? If thats you I remember you from back in 2004 or earlier. :winkwink:

Just because it wasnt on the TV doesnt mean it wasnt there. :2 cents:

Way to mimic the left wing wackadoos I was talking about above (on dkos). The number one mistake that the Clintons made when they were trying to push reform in 94 was that they didn't let the legislative branch write the legislation... Obama is not making that mistake... he gave them general guidelines and let them go at it. If he dictated to them what the legislation should be he would get nothing but headaches with people saying that he was overstepping his authority. Just like they did to Bush over the wire tapping, etc etc. If he goes on the offensive too hard there will be an even bigger backlash than there is right now... count on it. Once there is a bill... I have no doubt he will go on the offensive... but for right now he just needs to keep on message and play wack a mole with misinformation. If the Congress had done what he asked and produced a bill before the August recess it would be a very different game right now and the right knows that... it's why they pulled out the stops and put out so much bullshit before the August recess.

I said tax cuts when they buy insurance, meaning on top of their deduction.

Of course as I said same thing with old people too and even members of Congress. All the haters in congress talking about how god awful government run healthcare is yet they themselves have this same government run heath care. If it's so bad why not pay for a private plan? It's not like they can't afford it, but they don't. That speaks VOLUMES.

let's see people are against this because government run insurance programs are bad.

Medicare/medicaid: government run insurance program
Social Security: government run insurance program
Unemployment: government run insurance program

ANYONE that receives or plans to receive these benefits needs to STFU about this right now because they are a HYPOCRITE.

a deduction is tax cut. If I deduct say $2000 and I'm in the 25% tax bracket I just got a $500 tax cut

Oh you mean when the REPUBLICAN controlled Congress passed it and when the REPUBLICAN president signed it into law? You mean this thing that cost taxpayers $50 BILLION a year? Yeah that's ok for old fuckers, but thier grandkids needing better heathcare? fuck 'em. Thanks grandma. fuck you! die already.

Not only that, if you have no other employees, employ your spouse and set up a qualified Section 105 Health Reimbursement plan as a benefit for your employee. Their health insurance will be deductible, as well as uninsured medical, dental and vision care expenses, employee disability insurance, and term insurance premiums, for your employee and their spouse and dependants. :winkwink:

Whoa, slow down there cowboy. I guess I wasn't clear. I only meant he needs to be explaining things to the public in better ways, using the quote in my post as an example that would make more sense to more people. I never said anything about he needs to put his head down and ram shit through.

Again, I was talking about tax cuts on top of the deduction.

:thumbsup

Wasn't responding to you, just adding sauce to the mix. Read up on what I posted, you'll see it's quite an advantageous thing to do.

In addition to the existing deduction. And the tax cuts on top of it. :winkwink:

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

An easy way to do it would be to simply allow us to deduct our medical expenses. If we spend $100 on co-pays during the year, that's $100 deduction on our taxes. If we get unlucky and end up with $10,000 in medical bills, we have a $10,000 deduction. We allow for deductions on so much stuff that it seems silly that we don't have a system that lets us deduct our medical expenses.

P.S. I know there is a deduction out there but you have to meet some specific qualifications.

I like pie

Yeah be self employeed. I deduct what I pay and what I pay for my son. Why because I can because I actually read the tax code.

As far as getting to deduct all your medical bills? Why? Since when is getting sick a reason not to pay taxes? I can see if that was allowed millions of people suddenly getting "sick"

We allow people to write off their moving expenses, mortage interest, student loan interest, charitible donations, and much more. Don't see why it's a stretch to write off medical expenses.

:: cough cough :: hey doc, I'm sick, I think I need a $100k procedure. What say I kick you back some in order to "do" the procedure?

You think there's a fraud problem now, wait 'til you see what people would try to pull with THAT idea.

While deductions are nice, it doesn't get to the root of the problem which is that health care is getting so expensive a lot of people can't afford it or they can't afford health insurance unless it is paid for by their employer.

So writing it all off would be good for some people, if you don't have the money to pay the bill in the first place, writing it off doesn't really help you much.

You must be the only 1 in 250 million. Even Tim Geithner can't read that shit.

I was told by my accountant that I could only write of medical expenses if they made up a certain percentage of my income or higher. From what I understand any self employed person can write off 100% of the cost of health insurance premiums, but other things like costs of prescriptions or any other medical costs have to reach 7.5% of your income before you can write them off.

Right-wing extremist? lol, you actually buy into that bullshit? Damn you people are so sad... :Oh crap

Most people in this country who understand what is going on hate both of the stupid ass Republican and Democrat parties equally...

It's a deduction. You still have to pay that $100,000 for the procedure to be able to write it off. Getting unnecessary procedures is not going to save you any money.

Amen. They are the same.

I got so pissed off while reading NYT the other day.

Some old lady in Florida was saying that she doesn't want anything to change because it will lower her level of coverage with Medicare. She said that old people need it more than the next person.

Ain't that grand. Apparently, we're supposed to keep the old people alive, but the young people like me, who may have cancer, should have no way to get health insurance. It's OK if I die off so long as she gets to continue enjoying her retirement in Florida. She should have every right to get taxpayers to pay for her health care though.

I have only wished death on a very few people in my life. That lady was one of them.

You know, of course, that the welfare cases are already getting free health care. I mean, they've been pretty much getting free everything all along :1orglaugh

It's the folks who got shit jobs that we're talking about. Particularly the ones who were downsized or offshored out of good jobs and now find themselves barely able to make the mortgage payment. Those are the people with no insurance.

lol, this board is a fucking trip. Amazing that you had to even explain that...:Oh crap

There are some pretty good ideas in here from both sides. You would think if a bipartisan group of citizens (not a lobby) put together a proposal and brought it to each of their representatives, we might see what kind of reaction we could get.

I'll do you one better, I believe 20/20 ran a story about a bunch of old people in some retirement resort in Florida, and this was not a nursing home. These were people with money who were living comfortably. They all visited the doctor as often as allowed by Medicare, to the point where one of them actually said that going to the doctor was a social event for them.

Read this, it made my blood boil just a bit. And you Stossel haters, don't skip it just because it's Stossel. Give it a whirl.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/s...7522306&page=1

Medicare 34 trillion in the hole
Social Security $4.6 trillion but will start rising rapidly very soon.


Not only is this plan not the same Health Care plan Congress receives. Congress/Administration/Presidents etc past present and future are specifically excluded from the bills.