Originally Posted by fuzebox (Post 16171835)

I'm an affiliate and a small program owner, and there really is no reason for me to go to any shows. I have only gone in the last few years to have fun and put faces to names. I get absolutely everything I need done very quickly over ICQ (hell, a "business" discussion at a show just results in a "hit me up on ICQ when you get home" anyway), and most of the people I don't already know at shows are pushy sales people trying to sell me a product I don't want or need, or beg that I "send them traffic".

I used to enjoy the shows, but with the costs going up and value going down, they aren't even justifiable as a vacation. Yes I can afford to go regardless of what the badge cost is, but paying $300 for a badge, and an increased nonstandard rate for hotel room for very few good parties, special events, open bars, free dinners, whatever, doesn't make much sense to me. This year I decided to skip Internext and hit up South Beach a couple weeks later with some friends for my Florida fix.

Funnily enough, because of the time shows take out of running my sites, I make more money in the stretches where I don't go.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16171846)

When was the last time you paid for a badge? Your badge is on me at any of my shows - that offer goes for any QUALIFIED webmaster.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16167389)

Jo I cant read purple :mad:

Originally Posted by EuroRevenueUSA (Post 16171936)

hahah...
i dont think anyone can ;)

Originally Posted by fuzebox (Post 16171902)

Once and a while I get an offer from a sponsor for a free badge, sometimes too late, after I already paid for it. I've been pretty lucky in terms of free badges, but I still end up paying for some shows every year (nevermind that I travel with my wife and friends, not all 4-6 of us get free badges every show).

My point though was that a lot of people do pay for the badges every time, and I don't see the value, or a reason why I should continue going to shows.

Originally Posted by fuzebox (Post 16171835)

I'm an affiliate and a small program owner, and there really is no reason for me to go to any shows. I have only gone in the last few years to have fun and put faces to names. I get absolutely everything I need done very quickly over ICQ (hell, a "business" discussion at a show just results in a "hit me up on ICQ when you get home" anyway), and most of the people I don't already know at shows are pushy sales people trying to sell me a product I don't want or need, or beg that I "send them traffic".

I used to enjoy the shows, but with the costs going up and value going down, they aren't even justifiable as a vacation. Yes I can afford to go regardless of what the badge cost is, but paying $300 for a badge, and an increased nonstandard rate for hotel room for very few good parties, special events, open bars, free dinners, whatever, doesn't make much sense to me. This year I decided to skip Internext and hit up South Beach a couple weeks later with some friends for my Florida fix.

Funnily enough, because of the time shows take out of running my sites, I make more money in the stretches where I don't go.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16172625)

So if the badges were cheap or close to free (i wont give free badges to unqualified webmasters) do you think that would be good?

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16166324)

How are you measuring ROI on your marketing efforts?

How long does it take you to recoup your investment on a tradeshow? How do the tradeshows compare for you???

If you could see immediate ROI would you attend / sponsor / shows again?

How many shows is the right amount for an industry?

If you had one single show that you would attend, which one would it be?

Webmasters- If it was free would you go?

Programs - Would you pay to sponsor webmasters if you were gauranteed traffic?

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16172625)

So if the badges were cheap or close to free (i wont give free badges to unqualified webmasters) do you think that would be good?

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16172625)

So if the badges were cheap or close to free (i wont give free badges to unqualified webmasters) do you think that would be good?

Originally Posted by brand0n (Post 16172693)

wait badges are free for qualified webmasters?

i would think anyone who would show up to the show to be qualified heh.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16172625)

So if the badges were cheap or close to free (i wont give free badges to unqualified webmasters) do you think that would be good?

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 16172701)

I'll be totally crazy and say that I think if you guys, XBiz, and Cybernet all combined your summer shows you could create a pretty sweet beast. All of that sponsorship money would be funneled into one show. All of the travel money from everyone attending would be funneled into one show, meaning more people all in one place, increasing the value for everyone.

Of course, I fully well understand that this is not realistic. ;-)

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16172702)

I don't think the cost of the show really matters much not for Adult. How much does it cost again like $250 ?? I'll spend 10x that on airfare, rent a car, hotel, etc.... for a couple people to go to the show. I think it has everything to do about getting there. Now mainstream with their 1000K+ fees to get in the shows, yeah that would make a difference for mainstream.

That is why I think the big events should rotate cities. Having it in Miami and Vegas each year is stupid IMO. It's great for the people who live close to those cities but everyone else who needs to fly in and get a hotel room might NEVER go. Where as if it rotated through 3 different cities, Phoenix, Vegas, LA... now everyone who lives with in driving range of those cities can attend a show at least 1 time every 3 years and only have to pay admission to get in.

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker (Post 16173131)

There is nothing at a show you cant do on icq aside from get drunk and make an ass out of yourself
Duke

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16172877)

Will - As one of my former critics, I really appreciate your unbiased feedback. And yes, changing cities would be cool, but people love the Westin so much because of the exclusivity, freindly staff, and of course who can beat that pool/ bikini contest.

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker (Post 16173131)

It all went to shit when people thought they could make a profit off of adding additional shows to the big ones that were already in place. It became it's own business model and such a poor one at that.

My first show was in 04. EVERY year it got smaller and smaller until it became a joke.
Once affiliates stopped going that was the end. Sure there is plenty of B2B, but so many companies have merged. There is nothing at a show you cant do on icq aside from get drunk and make an ass out of yourself, or take 20 dipshits out to dinner who dont even know what company you are from.
Duke

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16173328)

2000 new orleans show was the best, jammed packed with people, boths and seminars. Back then i *think* there was only 2 big shows a year. I agree, it seems like the main reason so many shows are created is for profit which in the end they just deluted them all.

Originally Posted by AmeliaG (Post 16168049)

I used to love going to all the shows, all the way back to when the adult Vegas show was a room in (I think) the Sands during CES. They were fun.

As my business evolved to being more an internet business, the shows were great for meeting people who could really push traffic to SpookyCash. And they were fun.

Over time, however, I think a lot of the affiliates were made to feel like second class citizens at shows. There started being too many a la carte features where someone could pay a few hundred dollars for badges and still not be invited to the main networking events. That is not particularly fun and the ROI doesn't work for either affiliates or program owners.

Add to that industry consolidation and shrinkage, with so many people leaving the industry and so many fewer companies and it is hard to feel like shows are as worthwhile when the odds of meeting any new traffic whales are so reduced.

Choice of hotel is probably difficult for anyone trying to throw a show. I know that I have trouble feeling like doing business (or staying) in a low end hotel, but a hotel I'd want to stay in is going to be a more notable budget issue.

I just kind of did the math and decided that the ROI on fundamentally $9,000 worth of beer was not that great and the shows were no longer fun enough for me to justify them partly on that basis.

Originally Posted by AmeliaG (Post 16173588)

I put some effort into providing a thoughtful response to the question. Given that I'm someone who has been to a lot of shows and has greatly curtailed my show budget, I would think AVN would at least find my reaction mildly of interest.

Originally Posted by GFFMegan (Post 16168166)

I'm not sure if there is a way to do this with internet side, but i saw it work VERY well on DVD side.

Chris you are probably aware of Expomark. But for those who aren?t ...

It is a DVD show that only the studios pay to go. Then all the buyers are brought in for free. It is 3 days and you have meetings ever 30 min. A pager notifies you of the end of the meeting, 5 min to travel to the next meeting. No matter how big or small everyone is forced to meet with everyone. Even if you don't like each other (in that case you pretty much sit there in silence or just do the "hey i showed up ... we have nothing to talk about .. see ya!" or in a few rare instances work out your differences)

Being forced to see if there is a way 2 entities can do business is a great idea. I dreaded the idea at first, but quickly loved it. Expomark was responsible for getting the best of the best buyers there, with suggestions from the studios as well. The show attendees were offered breakfast and lunch together. The meetings ran from 9:30 to 5:30 (with a few breaks and lunch thrown in there). Then from that point on some had special dinners, some have special events, some just hung at the hotel bar together. This allowed for the ?fun time? to get to know people as well. We were given a questionnaire filled out by every buyer a week before the show. It let you know all their contact info, what products they were most interested in, etc. I was able to create a meeting agenda for each person caters to their needs.

Granted the attendance is MUCH smaller than Internext, but I think a modified version of this COULD work. It would allow every program face time with every webmaster/traffic source. Sometimes 15 min of face time so you can follow up later is all you need. That may never happen if people don?t happen to randomly meet and are unaware of each other. Hypothetically you could do this from Noon to 5 each day out by the pool. Make the meetings 25 min, 5 min ?travel time?. Make people sign up to do it. And MAKE SURE IT?S A RESTRICTED area since people don?t always abide by the ?Don?t bother people while they appear to be in a meeting just to say hi!! rule?

Few other random points:

-I also suggest doing away with SO many seminars ? there really are very few needed.

-I also think WAY to many shows are around!! I think 3-4 is more than enough! Just make sure the 3-4 are killer shows, work within peoples budgets and that there is CLEVER marketing options for sponsors.

-CAN ANYONE HERE TELL ME WHO SPONSORED THE BAR AT INTERNEXT LAST YEAR (doesn?t count if you?re the sponsor)? CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT 5 COMPANIES SPONSORED SOME PARTY AT PHOENIX FORUM? You get my point ? The sponsorship opportunities need to have a major overhaul ? and that is NOT Internext specific.

Originally Posted by Varius (Post 16167029)

I think someone I was having dinner with Friday night summed things up best: "The shows to me are like high-school reunions; that's why I go".

That's not to say business can't still be done nor shows still profitable. I'll use Mojohost as an example as I believe they will have a TON of new customers after this show. They offered something different and interesting (their data centre tours), they were very well attended and as an incentive, they offered the show badge to those who went. Just my guess but including the badge they probably spent $350 a head (badge, transportation, refreshments, food) and I think they will see a nice ROI regardless. That's the kind of model others should follow.

Paying $20K for banners around the hotel just isn't worth it to me, especially for already established companies. They are much better served putting that money to something with more of an individual touch, such as dinners or unique events. Some people think if a program has been a top advertiser for shows for years and suddenly stop and do something else, their program must be hurting these days. I would just think they are spending their money smarter.

From an affiliate point of view, the few who did attend and who I spoke with shared that the only reason they were there was because they were invited with their expenses paid. They would never pay badge + room + airfare out of their own pocket anymore for a show where as an affiliate, they don't need to attend other than to meet some people they work with or for the parties. With the decline in parties, they see even less reason to go. Since it's very few sponsors who are inviting their affiliates out (and they have valid reason; why risk him meeting other programs who sway him away from you, while he's there on your dime!), that's why you see much less affiliates at shows than you used to.

The day we stopped advertising at shows was the day attendance starting going down, yet to combat this, the show organizers decided prices for both attendees and sponsors should increase. That's simply backwards logic and short-term thinking and until it changes expect many companies to agree with me.

There's my ultra-long two cents :)

Originally Posted by Kiwigirl (Post 16167350)

How are you measuring ROI on your marketing efforts?
Depending on what you would consider ROI. I personally did enough biz at internext where my overall cost to attend has been recuperated and that is without doing my follow ups. Anything generated through my follow ups will be profit.

How long does it take you to recoup your investment on a tradeshow? How do the tradeshows compare for you???
I personally prefer trade shows that are industry only events. Phoenix and FL show are my 2 favorite shows in the year. As much as I love Las Vegas I find that attending shows there tend to side track people to do other things aside from business which does not make those shows as productive. And there is nothing worse than talking to someone at the bar for 5mins only to discover that they are a tourist and are not in the industry. (especially after buying them a drink! LOL)


If you could see immediate ROI would you attend / sponsor / shows again?
DUH! LOL YES :)

How many shows is the right amount for an industry?
I am happy to attend 1 show every 2-3 months but I include consumer shows in that number so realistically that is say 3 B2B shows a year.

If you had one single show that you would attend, which one would it be?
Phoenix forum, lunch is included, snack shack is a blessing especially for early morning coffee and late night snacking and being that the entire hotel is booked keeps the affair intimate.

Webmasters- If it was free would you go?
Phoenix was once a free show to attend and when that was the case there was a huge turn out. There is still a huge turn out for that show but the affiliate niche of attendees definitely thinned out. If badges to a show were free it would be more likely that the event hotel would be sold out and overall attendance would be greater.

Programs - Would you pay to sponsor webmasters if you were gauranteed traffic?
Yes! I was bull shitting with someone earlier this year about offering a promotional campaign to all their affiliates. The concept was if you send X amount of sign ups you would get an all inclusive trip to a show. These are the kinds of things that are desperately needed however with the overall cost of shows these days it would require a much larger amount of sales to make it of value for any affiliate program to pay for their affiliates to attend.

My 2 cents about internext this past weekend....
The show appeared to have less attendance than previous years however it was extremely productive for me. I met lots of new people, seen lots of old ones and managed to accomplish what it was that I set out to do as well as much more.
Overall experience - 9/10 :thumbsup (I dropped a number cos I am holding the show coordinators responsible for my tremendous hang over on Saturday morning! lol)

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 16167547)

Generally we don't see ROI till 90 days, anything past that is a loss. This past show we will see in 30.



See above.




This was the case with earlier shows circa 2000.



2 domestic, 1 International.



AVN Las Vegas show (internet), with a very close second, TPF.




As a former affiliate, the answer to this is always yes barring cost of travel, room, etc.



This is also a yes.

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 16168303)

Pretty shitty review. The days of stupidity are done. I wasn't there to drink everyone's free booze or go to their parties, I'm there to get business done with people from around the world in my industry.

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 16179830)

I don't look at $$$ when it comes to evaluating what I thought of a show. It really comes down to how I felt about the experience and what I got from it. I am the biggest fan of the Florida Internext show and I left this show very disappointed. Without a doubt the worst florida show yet and by far the smallest. I felt it was so small I was motivated to spend a shitload of time yesterday providing feedback on shows.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16173934)

Your point is respected but disagree, if you dont have sponsors then you must do something to increase revenues - and badges are the only option.

Either the sponsors pay for EVERYTHING or the badges prices need to go up.

We do not make that much $$ on this show. We used to but not anymore.

I expect this to change when we see more consolidation in the industry.

Originally Posted by Varius (Post 16179873)

I agree you need sponsors to put on a show and they should cover all of the expenses IMO (then whatever overflow from sponsors + a minimal amount from attendees will be the profit).

What I meant here though, was, take this example:

Show X year 1:

Show gets 1500 attendees. A Sponsorship or Booth costs $10K. Badge costs $150.

Show X year 2:

Show gets 1000 attendees. The same sponsorship or booth of the previous year costs $13K. Badge costs $200.

Show X year 3:

Show gets 700 attendees. The same sponsorship or booth of the previous year costs $15K. Badge costs $300.

How can sponsors justify paying MORE to get in front of LESS people? That's the part I am saying doesn't make sense. :2 cents:

For ideas/thoughts, I put those in the other thread :)

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16173934)

Your point is respected but disagree, if you dont have sponsors then you must do something to increase revenues - and badges are the only option.

Either the sponsors pay for EVERYTHING or the badges prices need to go up.

We do not make that much $$ on this show. We used to but not anymore.

I expect this to change when we see more consolidation in the industry.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16182485)

Here is a novel idea. Why do you have to do the shows for profit ? "AVN" gets a ton of name recognition from being the promoter/organizer of the show. Why can't it be more like a NonProfit where the people are paid for their time and expenses but no real "profit" is realized. That would help reduce the cost for the badges and booths.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16171846)

When was the last time you paid for a badge? Your badge is on me at any of my shows - that offer goes for any QUALIFIED webmaster.

Originally Posted by Qbert (Post 16183599)

Being able to pay $100-$150 for a badge to attend seems like one hell of a good qualifier to me.

If that amount is the make or break issue on whether or not to attend then just how qualified can the webmaster be?

I think $250 to $300 for a badge is a bit much for what they now include, but free or very low cost badges open up a whole different can of worms. Even at that, $300 vs $100 for a badge isn't going to be the deciding factor on whether I attend a show. It's fourth or fifth on my list of expenses. Travel, room and food all being higher on that list.

Originally Posted by Qbert (Post 16183599)

Being able to pay $100-$150 for a badge to attend seems like one hell of a good qualifier to me.

If that amount is the make or break issue on whether or not to attend then just how qualified can the webmaster be?

I think $250 to $300 for a badge is a bit much for what they now include, but free or very low cost badges open up a whole different can of worms. Even at that, $300 vs $100 for a badge isn't going to be the deciding factor on whether I attend a show. It's fourth or fifth on my list of expenses. Travel, room and food all being higher on that list.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16182485)

Here is a novel idea. Why do you have to do the shows for profit ? "AVN" gets a ton of name recognition from being the promoter/organizer of the show. Why can't it be more like a NonProfit where the people are paid for their time and expenses but no real "profit" is realized. That would help reduce the cost for the badges and booths.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16183946)

Another thing to think about is that attendees MUST BE vetted and qualified. If not it spoils the show - remmeber the GUN incident at XBIX 2 years ago. That was a direct result of not proper qualifying free badges.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16184089)

Wake up call - right now we are not making almost any profit. :disgust

Thus the reasoning behind these threads.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16185497)

Exactly! the reason behind these threads is so YOU can try to make more profit. lol

you wake up or better yet stop trying to fool everyone here. If you not making any money from it then don't do it. :2 cents: who is making you have these events each year ? No one. Everyone is already saying there are too many shows and you admitted that yourself. So if it's not making you any money, and there are too many shows then step aside and stop having the show.

The reason behind these threads are so you can get free feedback from everyone else and share none of your own, so you can try to make YOUR show better. Making your show better means making you and the company you work for more money.

So it all comes down to money... so don't feed me the wake up call bullshit.

My point was why doesn't AVN or Xbiz do the show for NO PROFIT. Still make it better... but instead of just trying to make it better so you can make more profit, if it gets better and has more people it could then be cheaper for everyone who attends if AVN/ XBiz held these conventions for no profit.

Is AVN / XBIZ's business conventions or do they make money from other stuff? The name recognition alone that AVN gets from holding the show should be "profit" enough to do the show. As long as all of their expenses are paid it cost them nothing to do the show and the benefit a lot from the branding and focus put on their company because their name is all over it. To prove how much value that is how much do you charge pussy cash to pay to have their names on the badges, banners on the walls, menus and all that shit. I am sure it is tens of thousands of dollars, AVN gets all of that expsure for free. So at the very least if you still want to do the convention for profit then you should charge yourself to have "AVN" mentioned in relationship to the convention.

I know its all about money you guys want to put these conventions together to make money from it. You all are obviously greedy and since there are so many damn shows a year and as long as you can squeeze blood out of the turnip and make "some" money you guys will never work together and keep on having them. It is funny and sad to see the way you all act AVN/Xbiz over this shit. One trying to out last the other hoping their rival will bow out first so the other one standing can get all the scraps left over. Not to mention how the several other shows fit into all of this.

I would love to see how many of you still tried to put on a show if there was no profit to be made from them.... and if you say you would still do it you are lieing because if you had an attitude that wasn't all about the buck you would be much more likely to work together and reduce the number of shows.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16166341)

Follow up questions for webmasters- If you were paid to go- all expenses (would you attend? Based on traffic and qualifation.

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16186235)

Hmmm. Interesting. Non profit show??

Why on earth would I want to not make any $$. I am not here for charity.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 16186610)

You are not here for charity, I am sure your salary would still be paid, as I said all expenses incured by AVN would be recouped but at the end of the day, they reduce the prices of booths/ badges so they don't make a profit.

So which is it, you claim you not making any money RIGHT NOW from shows but yet you say you don't want to do a show and not make money. THEN STOP HAVING THE SHOW.

You going to lose this argument.

Do you think there is a value to have "AVN AVN AVN!" blasted everywhere in regards to the show? How much do other companies pay YOU for that type of exposure at the shows?? There is your profit, you get all of that exposure for AVN for FREE! and you organize an event for the industry that AVN profits from in many other ways. What would be wrong with making it cheaper for the companies and attendies by omg, you not profiting off of the show?

Does AVN need to make a profit off of shows to survive? its that their only source of income ? :upsidedow

Originally Posted by AVNChris (Post 16183946)

Another thing to think about is that attendees MUST BE vetted and qualified.