but it was. let it be known: the first premise in the entire thread was, 'paysite owners should beware of ccra'.

end of story.

there were others, but that was the first. and that is all i said - in order to show that any posts i have made, are not in fact 'pointless'.

basic logic.

Argghhh...I give up...can you not see that Quiet's response to ME was made simply to prove that I had misinterpreted the intent of the thread...and not to make a valid point...which makes that particular post pointless and of no value to the thread.

Oh, but I am just a fool...pity pity me

Damn, I forgot about the "only the first sentence is valid" rule again...should have said everthing i had to say in the first sentence...doh...

ahh, but there's the point - there's a big difference between saying "the premise" and "the first premise"

you said 'the premise" before i believe...............

back to the issue:

i was gst audited last year. we appealed it, and were ruled against.

we had to pay 2 years retroactive gst on all paysite revenue, and have to pay gst on all future revenue.

the equivelent of putting cement blocks on a marathon runner. and like sleazy said, most accountants will tell you that you do not need to pay gst - that was my experience prior to the audit.

actually, what i said was:

this thread was started on the premise of paysite owners

and the thread was indeed started on that premise (or at 'paysite owners' were part of the first premise). there were several, and that was the *first*.

My question is, why would any of you assume that a porn site is in any way immune to the rules governing every single other business in Canada. You have Canadian clients..you charge them GST. If you were selling books via the internet...you would set up a merchant sytem that allowed for GST to be charged to Canadian clients. Damn, looks like before you started a business, you should have done at least a basic amount of research...Even the flunkies down at HR Block know this very basic tax law.

it's obviously you do not understand gst.

over 95% of our surfers are not Canadian. so it is assumed those 95%+ are gst exempt (zero rated). we offered to block all Canadian sales - and of course Rev Can was not interested.

we are in effect absorbing a 7% surcharge on all signups, that we can not force our subscribers into paying - since competition is global - and they are not adding 7% to their prices.

'concrete blocks'

dude, we both love going circular, but I think you're wrong on that point - understood that this point is a meaningless little piece of trivial nothingness.

Just cause something was stated first doesn't make it the premise of a post, unless you can't see that deep into what the author may have been getting at.


Just my humble meaningless opinion there.

yes, this sounds like a phil class.

but you are definitely wrong. there wasn't a single premise from the first post. there were several. the very first had to due with paysite owners.

if you like, i can pull all of the premises out of the first post.

:glugglug

nobody is really questioning paying GST on canadian sales most sites have similar ratios of canadian clients as quiets, about 5%- but those same merchants you're talking about don't have to chage GST on sales going to the USA. The law isn't applied equally.

For paysite owners in Canada, when you cross the boarder to the US, what do you tell customs you do? Regarding your job and revenue and such? I've had MEGA problems crossing, and I'm not a pay site owner but I do work for companies that own paysites.

Anyone have any info on boarder issues? I was denied once and give the "benefit of the doubt" the last time, so going to Internext is making me paranoid. I live in Toronto and the US customs agents seem to have it in for me!

yes, but you initially said "THE PREMISE", not the first premise as you stated later.

stating 'the premise" implies that there are no other significant premises. Stating "the first premise" imples that there are several and I don't disagree with that at all.

I've gone many times to porn conventions on business in the USA. I always tell the border guards the truth, and they always let me go. One even knew my site and had me sign one of my businss cards for him.


what they are cocerned about is ifyou are making money in the usa - when I tell them I'm buying for work and not generating any revenue while in the USA they let me in easily. If you say you are going to make money in the USA you will have LOTS of problems. they always want to to come in and buy stuff though.

for the third time, this is exactly what i said:

"this thread was started on the premise of paysite owners"

no mention that this was the only premise (which i keep restating it isn't). just that this thread was STARTED on the premise of paysite owners.

the premise with which the thread was STARTED - involved/addressed paysite owners. that's it. and it's true.

Quiet...o.k. this I do not understand...here is my scenario...and one which has withstood 4 Tax audits 5 GST audits and 19 years of business...which includes a good number of years that GST was not even in place...

I also own an Advertising firm ..and I have since 1983...approx 30% of my customers are stateside. I even have an American maildrop...not an office...just a maildrop...so that I can take advantage of sending my bulk mailings from stateside

I charge my Canadian customers GST...I charge my far eastern Canadian customers GST and HST..but I don't charge my US clients any taxes...Revenue Canada knows this and they fully endorse this...

And...my only comment I will ever make about earnings...unless you are a very very rich man...I can guarantee that my firm's gross billings are far above what you bring in from your adult sites...so my firm generates more then a passing interest from CCRA. So, I really can't fathom why the adult industry would be subjected to different rulings then any other international company.

umm, no. to get technical on that point, the thread was started on the premise of being canadian and dealing with the CCRA. Look at the title.

this is exactly whay everyone is shitting themselves over this. they ARE applying the rules differently to companies like Quiet's, if you have followed this you'd know that and we wouldn't have to keep calling you an IDIOT.

yes, this is the crux of it. read morpheus post. because it is an intangible - they have decided to charge gst on all of it.

call ccra and ask. it doesn't matter what you might think - it's what the govt thinks that matters. i'm not here to give tax advice, i use a tax lawyer. so should you if you're concerned.

as far as earnings go - i'm a multi-millonaire. so i guess i'm doing okay.

this is the first you mentioned anything about the title. so now it comes to definitely terms.

by 'this thread was started' - i mean the words written *in* the thread.

maybe we should back out another level. past the title of the thread - and to the title of the website (gofuckyourself.com).

Then you need another tax lawyer...as I said...we do not charge any of our US clients GST...and since the internet has only been around for a portion of the time I have been in business...chances are we and our accounting firm have a much longer relationship with the tax department then you or your tax lawyer do...

Plus, I have the advantage of using an accounting "firm" not a tax lawyer...Granted they have lawyers working for them, but they have a whole team working together, and the resources that only a large firm can supply.

If you truly are worth millions, then you might want to consider calling the firm we use. They will cost you a pretty penny...
but, if you want their name (in Calgary)...I can give it to you off the board...I certainly wouldn't take the ruling that one tax lawyer has gotten from CCRA to be the end all.

*sigh* this has been hashed over in many threads.

i had two different firms looking into it. it's over.

i will be fighting it further when i'm retired (next oct) - but certainly not at this point.

it's ccra policy. it has nothing to do with your accounting business - it has everything to do with intangible internet revenue. lol.

http://millerthomson.ca/ is my main firm. they are also in calgary.

Quiet...this is not directed at you...just my overall observation...with "you" refering to any and all Canadian paysite owners

Here is what is most likely CCRA's problem with the adult industry...

Chances are you use an American payment processor...or you may use a Canadian one..but I doubt it. Either way...have you ever made an attempt to integrate a system that charges Canadian's GST? Probably not...

CCRA looks at this and says, why not? Every other other business in Canada has to charge GST. So their next logical assumption is...you, the CDN paysite owner is trying to evade paying GST, where legally required.

Now remember, CCRA's mandate is not to do your accounting for you. Their's is to collect taxes and interpret data that you can provide them. So, you say, but only 5% of my customers are CDN. They say, where is the documentation to prove this, and what measures have you made to ensure that these customers are being charged the legally due GST?

Your answer is, my processor can tell me how many customers are CDN. They say again, where is the documentation? ...remember, they will not do the research for you, and you have to have a detailed and journalized paper trail...

...And then the clincher...you tell them that no attempt has been made to collect taxes through your payment processor.

Their logical response...we have no evidence that you are attempting to adhere to the laws of the CDN tax system and you do not have the proper documentation and papertrail..so....the only logical response...you owe us GST on everything...

Like I said before...this is a business like any other business...you would not assume that you could get away from charging GST in any other field..so why on earth would you assume that you could in the adult industry.

Just like the service industry...they showed that they couldn't police themselves..so the tax department accessed an automatic "tip percentage" to gross income. Now, it looks like the adult industry gets to join their ranks.

P.S. we use CollinsBarrow, but strickly for my "mainstream" firm.

My accountant used to work for Revenue Canada and he has advised me that I do not have to pay GST on US dollars earned.
Only income over 30K a year and only the Canadian dollars I need to pay the damn GST on.
I am trusting him.

nope. like i already said - we could block all Canadian users by not accepting any Canadian credit cards. we presented that to them.

they barely let the words leave my lawyers lips.

the review board came back with a ruling 10 MINUTES later. the policy being: fuck 'em. we're greedy. pay gst on everything 2 years retroactive.

that was my experience. (yes, i know it wasn't directed specifically at me).

anyway, i'm done with this thread :glugglug

Who know's the reasoning..but I still wouldn't doubt that this was a result of no prior attempt to adhere to the tax laws of Canada...just like a judge won't let a killer walk out of his court room because he says he won't kill again...neither will CCRA say, well, they seem sincere...let's let it slide...

My advice to other Canadian paysite owners...set up a separate link for Canadian subscribers...
-include the 7% gst in the price, so that you remain competitive with your US counterparts. Yes, you take a 7% hit, but 7% on Canadian and not all sales.
-Make sure your GST number is clearly displayed on the page, as required by law
-Keep accurate books.
-Submit on time every quarter

I am not a accountant or a lawyer, but I have been around the block with Revenue Canada for more years then some of you out there have likely been alive...so I have a pretty firm grip on their expectations.

okay, i'll say one more thing.

the only advice anyone should be giving here - is talk to a tax lawyer if you concerned. periodd

...agreed...

Here is the real deal :)

We are >> CURRENTLY << in a legal battle over this. Within the last year a new law was drawn up pointed towards the internet.

First I will start with back taxes. We are fighting this and even though we WILL BE FORCED into paying back taxes. The onlything you can hope for is that they don't go all the way back which they can do. It seems 3 months back is a safe target area for them but do understand they can go back to the start of your business.

Sales from AMERICAN money program (ie topbucks, cen, ect) are NOT subject to GST.

The real fight for us is the sales produced to 3rd party processors. The law says ALL income not just from Canadians. Which would mean if you do 100 sales a day you will be forced pay an extra 7% on all those sales.

Our lawyer for this is the lawyer that wrote the tax law. He moreless says your only hope is to pay LESS of a back tax and fight to get just Canadian transactions to pay the 7% but the chances are VERY slim this will happen. For the most part they understand how the internet works. They understand we CAN prove how many Canadians signed up but they also understand we can FAKE the information. They also know we can block other Canadians from signing up for our paysites which as well can faked.

So their solution is tax ALL income for 3rd party processors.

The new law has NO loop holes such as many other companies used in the past. The NEW gst laws are solid. So if you are a Canadian money program you WILL be paying 7% on your transactions.

Good luck to everyone with this, they are going all out on Internet based companies and they are winning the race.

exactly what i keep saying.

we've been through it too. 48 months retroactive (600K). however they could have gone back as far as 6 years (when we started up).

of course the past two years generated much more revenue that the years previous ;)

i went to the states a couple times last year and i never have any problems. do you have a criminal record or something?

Quiet, you've been through rough times I am sure. I am also personally fighting with RevCan and going thru all this shit as we speak. They can be a real pain in the ass, it's not even funny.

Bottom line, we all agree to the following:

1. We HAVE TO charge GST (7%) on every sales we made to our paysites.

2. Affiliate income is GSTable with other Canadian Affiliate Program who are registered for GST. (Gammacash, PlatinumBucks, Python, etc...)

--

We are dealing with one of the largest accounting firm in the world, and we are dealing with senior managers and partners of this firm. Our informations are very accurate and I am telling you that this is very scary.

I can also tell you that there is a "list" in CCRA's hands. This list contains companies and individuals who were previously audited by the CCRA and felt into that "intangible - zero rated" section.

These folks on that list will get audited anytime soon and it will hurt bad. I am just thinking about some companies like GammaCash... this is not funny.

We CAN'T run from this tax law - and we have to pay.

But

We can certainly try to find solutions for the future and this is what we've been doing for the past months with our accounting firm and our lawyers.

can you please expand on this 'list'? do you have any more details?

Contact me on ICQ

check your mail

...

Did you get my emails?

just for interest sake, my Ca (who also works for a large firm) in conjunction with the law firm I use confirmed everything Quiet is saying in this thread and basically pooped their pants when they read about it in disbelief. It's all true. A friend of mine who runs a large paysite in Canada also did some research into it and confirmed it all as well. This is VERY scarry stuff. Anyone who doubts Quiet on this really doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.



Quiet, sorry, i went out for dinner and didn't get back till now. You know I've been wanting an arguement with you for a long time, I expected more than a GFY answer. Soo much potential wasted.......I was very disappointed. :(

gfy answer? clearly i've argued my point very well...

Good thing I don't own a paysite... paying 7% on years of earnings would kill me.

full quote from me:

---------------------

you did not mention titles until this point. like i said, if you interprete 'this thread was started' - to mean the title as premise, then we have a mis-understanding of terms.

- bringing the arguement down to the level of definitions -

by 'this thread was started' - i mean the words written *in* the thread.

we argued until your final defense was the TITLE. certainly, *including* the title - we are both wrong. but back out of the thread to the title, we could also back out of the title to the website. a slippery slope...

again, i never assumed the title as premise - and it appears you didn't either, until your very last attempt.

i mentioned the title cause you kept saying "the thread was started, the thread was started" why not start at the start of the thread then??? - I figgured the title would be relevant as it's contained within the same page the thread is on , it's the first thing about the thread you read on the thread's own URL.

To be honest I don't see how you could back out of the title to the website? the title is contained within the thread - backing out to the website would be allow anything to be correct and would be about as relevant as saying the entire world wide web is relevant to this particular thread.

if that were true, we'd both be wrong. a title certainly does not (especially on gfy) always give much hint to the premise(s) and possible conclusion lying within the thread.

in the same way the title gofuckyourself.com does not always give you much hint to the arguments held inside this message board.

exactly my point. simply looking at the titles of threads: in many cases (on gfy) the title gives little to no hint of the premises(s) and/or possible conclusion lying within the thread.

anyway, a friend just bought me some crown royal special reserve. never had it before. very good stuff. it's not made in Gimley is it? :glugglug

no idea on the special reserve? I dont' drink enough to remember. i think it was crown, 87 and five star that come out of Gimli, but they are all shipped to and bottled in ontario now I believe. ( the older or special crowns are just aged in oak barrels longer from what i understand). Wat pisses me off the most is that i can buy the stuff cheaper in north dakota than in my own back yard where it's made.

anyway - to sum up my point was you said "the premise" of the thread was pertaining to paysites and I disagreed with that, saying that wasn't the "the" premise, although certainly one of the premises, it wasn't "the" premise in my opinion.


It's foolish to disagree with me when you obviously know I'm right.

:P

Sleazy...oh master of design and advertising excellence...yes I have visited your site...and yes I mean the preceding in a sarcastic manner...

I assume that perhaps it is I that you refer to in the above quote. Please share your wisdom, oh wise one. I await the words of wisdom from such a fella as you..(sorry, being sarcastic once again)...truth be known, I really don't expect anything beyond a gutteral grunt or other piece of fluff from your lips, that would not past muster anywhere in the world outside of the adult industry...but maybe I will be surprised...opps...sorry...being sarcastic again..you won't surprise me...

i repeat

"Anyone who doubts Quiet on this really doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. "


hummm, hole in the ground, 49parellel's ass...can you see a differecne?

i've never heard of it before now - so i don't know anything about it. seems very high quality though. limited edition sure, but special reserve - no.

no. again, what i said was, '"this thread was started on the premise of paysite owners"

hehe

Thank you for not disappointing me with any glimmer of actual intellect. Every once in a while, someone comes along on this board that I feel could also make it in mainstream business, if they chose to take the other path...and you are certainly not that man...

umm, that's exactly my point - I feel youa re wrong and it was started on the premise of both (paysite and affiliate),