Deisgner Coalition - GoFuckYourself.com

railz · 11-25-2002, 03:40 AM

You know, what with the amount of scamming going around now (I'm not just talking about Amp - this has affected us all) I'm wondering if some kind of coalition would be a good thing.

Think of it as a "seal of approval" - designers have to be voted in by other members of the system, their sites all follow a similar code of conduct (for instance, for up-front fees, contracts or whatever) and would off us some form of protection?

I'm ready for the flames, but I'm just trying to help out.

twistyneck · 11-25-2002, 03:41 AM

Not a bad idea but seriously, I don't think it would ever work.

Amputate Your Head · 11-25-2002, 03:41 AM

I am my own coalition.... fuck me? I'll give your shit away to everyone.... lol

CDSmith · 11-25-2002, 03:51 AM

Teen Angel was on here just a few days ago with a list of people that hadn't paid her for design work. I bet I can dig up 20 other threads pretty quick regarding the same shit. This is fucking ridiculous.

You know, I took on a small two-gallery job this past week. The deal was negotiated out in about 20 minutes on Tuesday night, my price was $20 per gallery, $40 total... no biggie. This person said they would paypall me the money up front, which he did.... not $40 but $50.

On Wednesday I did the two galleries, ftp'd them up and ICQ'd him, and he told me he loved the galleries.

Guess what?

Nothing, that's what.
He paid me, and I delivered. It wasn't rocket science. Doesn't matter the size of the job, or whether you're the client or the designer, it should be just that simple. Client pays -- designer does the fucking work. Done. Over. No bullshit.

railz · 11-25-2002, 03:55 AM

You're right CDSmith - but there's some wierd shit going on lately.

I've been asked for quotes in the past few weeks and people have been throwing out all kinds of wierd things. One guy wanted a full webmaster site done, and wasn't willing to pay more than $50 for it, and wouldn't pay until the design was uploaded to his server.

Yeah, that discussion lated a long time.

For a $50 job (a real $50 job, mindyou) I'll do it Pro Bono, but when someone who wants $2000 worth of tours and logos designed won't even give you 25% up front, something is wrong.

What I mean is that it seems people have come to see us as the bottom of the food chain.

The Other Steve · 11-25-2002, 03:56 AM

Yeah Railz - gotta agree with the others - it probably won't work - there are too many new designers - wannabe writers etc. coming in - they'll get ripped off and either learn or leave and be replaced with more wannabe's.

Like CD said - payment up front fixes all the problems.

We take payment after the event from two guys who's reputation are rock solid - but no-one else.

railz · 11-25-2002, 03:57 AM

Oh well. Worth a shot - guess it's everyone for themselves then.

The Other Steve · 11-25-2002, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by railz

What I mean is that it seems people have come to see us as the bottom of the food chain.

Probably more like the scum at the bottom of the food chain are trying to climb up on the backs of the designers and writers.

KRL · 11-25-2002, 04:08 AM

Interesting concept, but most designers, at least the ones I've met personally at shows seem to be the independent type of personality, that wouldn't be into following rules and regs that a coalition would require to maintain its "union / coalition" type of functionality.

The other thing is it seems like there are a lot of new designers coming into this biz from the mainstream tech realm all the time, cause of the shortage of work in that sector right now . So if you had a bunch in a coalition, there would always be the freelancers coming in with more competitive offers to do work for someone with less stringent terms.

One of the problems with this business when disputes arise is that you tend to see extremely strong opinions on both sides of an argument, as we've seen here recently. Where both parties lliterally swear up and down they didn't rip the other off be it for design work, content buys, traffic deals, etc. Its always hard to really get to the truth. Like when a guy comes out and says I got fucked by so and so for design work, and then so and so comes on to post he didn't deliver the design style I contracted for, or the traffic he sent for the $5K sucked so he owes me more to make up for it, or I paid him money for ocntent and the content wasn't legally released by the photographer, but yet you see a valid appearing release like we had a big issue here with recently.

I think maybe a webmaster arbitration court would be a good idea. Where parties in dispute could come to a formally structured board specifically to resolve disputes. That way we would have consistency in how all these fights are handled and there would be a process for submission of evidence to prove and support your case, process of discovery where other webmasters who may have been screwed by the same person would submit supporting documentation, and then a jury of webmasters would study the facts in a serious manner and vote
for who should be granted the win for the case. Keep all the records in a public database available to all webmasters that agree to handle dispute matters this way so if you are about to do business with someone you can take a look at their "disputes" records and see what they are all about. If someone doesn't show up for their online arbitration, and basically blows it off, it would be recorded as a summary default judgment just like in the real world. If someone has a lot of disputes in the database, mission would be accomplished, because you'd know anyone getting into so many situations with other webmasters is clearly someone to avoid and not do business with unless you want to take a chance on them of your own free will, at which time you'd have no one to blame but yourself for that decision. Whenever you do a good transaction with someone that person, as part of the rules of the arbitration community, would be obligated to submit a good business reference note in your database file on you, just like they do on ebay, which is why ebay became so successful with millions of total strangers being able to instantly evaluate past performance of someone, be it good or bad, they were buying something from thousands of miles apart.

Of course there is the first time scammer that we'd all be vulnerable to still, so you would only want to do business with someone who is listed with all their real background info in this webmaster community database who have agreed to this process of arbitration already should a dispute arise. Anyone outside the box, who wouldn't be in the database, with all their references for good deals done prior listed, you would know is a chance bet to do business with then.

CDSmith · 11-25-2002, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by railz
I've been asked for quotes in the past few weeks and people have been throwing out all kinds of wierd things. One guy wanted a full webmaster site done, and wasn't willing to pay more than $50 for it, and wouldn't pay until the design was uploaded to his server.

A standard ICQ conversation would go something like this:
------------
Him: "You design me nice site yes?"

cdsmith: "could be. You want a whole site done do you?"

Him: "Yes"

cdsmith: "What are you offering as payment?"

Him: "I pay you fifty dollah"

cdsmith: "So you want a two-page site with no graphics?"

Him: [confused] "No, I want full site, tour, nice logo and banner too, many page"

cdsmith: "If you're joking, I'm not laughing"

Him: "no joke. You make site yes?"

cdsmith: "No site, but I make joke now. ha ha"

Him: "???"

cdsmith: "buddy, you're a cheap ass eye-twitching retard. Time for you to eat a dick"

---- end of discussion ----

For you designers that are a bit newer to the industry, listen up ---- don't sell your work CHEAP. I fucking HATE it when I see the word "cheap" in a designer's advertising. If your work is worth industry standard then CHARGE IT, stop raping yourself and every other designer with you. A good designer should be getting $20 to $40 per hour for basic work and $50 to $100 per hour for scripting and high-end graphics work. You are professionals, it's time you started running your businesses as such... and that means charging enough for what you are worth, and making sure at least partial payment is secured before starting any work for all but the most trusted clients.

railz · 11-25-2002, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
For you designers that are a bit newer to the industry, listen up ---- don't sell your work CHEAP. I fucking HATE it when I see the word "cheap" in a designer's advertising. If your work is worth industry standard then CHARGE IT, stop raping yourself and every other designer with you. A good designer should be getting $20 to $40 per hour for basic work and $50 to $100 per hour for scripting and high-end graphics work. You are professionals, it's time you started running your businesses as such... and that means charging enough for what you are worth, and making sure at least partial payment is secured before starting any work for all but the most trusted clients.

Couldn't agree with you more. I might not be the best at this, but I bring a lot of other skills to the table that are worth money too.

Teen Angel · 11-25-2002, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith

For you designers that are a bit newer to the industry, listen up ---- don't sell your work CHEAP. I fucking HATE it when I see the word "cheap" in a designer's advertising. If your work is worth industry standard then CHARGE IT, stop raping yourself and every other designer with you. A good designer should be getting $20 to $40 per hour for basic work and $50 to $100 per hour for scripting and high-end graphics work. You are professionals, it's time you started running your businesses as such... and that means charging enough for what you are worth, and making sure at least partial payment is secured before starting any work for all but the most trusted clients. [/B]

I have certainly learnt the hard way.. BUT good has come out of it.. I learnt and have movedon.. changed the eway I do things.. paid for a merchant acility to make my life easier and it has paid off... I raised my prices to get what I believe my work is worth...

HOWEVER, the coalition is a good idea in my view.

Scootermuze · 11-25-2002, 04:25 AM

I'm not a designer, nor a purchaser of designs, but it seems to me if designers don't get paid, there is an issue of 'theft of services' as well as 'theft of copyrighted material' if the sites are being used without compensation.

Jakke PNG · 11-25-2002, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith

listen up ---- don't sell your work CHEAP. I fucking HATE it when I see the word "cheap" in a designer's advertising.

Check my signature

CDSmith · 11-25-2002, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TeenGodFather

Check my signature

Yup, saw it. Everyone has a different definition of cheap though. For example, if you're willing to rape yourself by doing $5 banners and $6 galleries and $30 tours, then you'd be on my "dude that needs anal probing" list.

railz · 11-25-2002, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
Yup, saw it. Everyone has a different definition of cheap though. For example, if you're willing to rape yourself by doing $5 banners and $6 galleries and $30 tours, then you'd be on my "dude that needs anal probing" list.

This is what I'm getting at. While some people will try and undercut us with this kind of pricing, in the end they'll learn that they're in fact paying $30 over the odds of a good design from one of us, simply because they'll come back to us to design something worthwhile in the end.

It's not a dictatorship, it's not a monopoly, it's a seal of quality.

Last from me for a while. I have shit to do.

vasten · 11-25-2002, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith

For you designers that are a bit newer to the industry, listen up ---- don't sell your work CHEAP. I fucking HATE it when I see the word "cheap" in a designer's advertising. If your work is worth industry standard then CHARGE IT, stop raping yourself and every other designer with you. A good designer should be getting $20 to $40 per hour for basic work and $50 to $100 per hour for scripting and high-end graphics work. You are professionals, it's time you started running your businesses as such... and that means charging enough for what you are worth, and making sure at least partial payment is secured before starting any work for all but the most trusted clients.

Well I'm not gonna try and start a war here.. but look,

When you want programming and a coder says.. 'hey.. ill code for cheap', there is nothing worng with that.

When a good designer says 'Hey.. ill design for cheap'.. there is nothing worng with that.

When the CD companies get togther and all decide to raise the price of CD's.. its the industry conspiring.

When a bunch of designers feel that designers shoudl charge more than they do.. it NO better than the cd companies, or microsoft, or any other conspiracy/monooply

supply and demand.. dont try and screw the natural value of your skills. What you are worth per hour will change based on the deamnd and number of people out there with skills in your league.

Interferance in the natural course of this is very arrogant.

CDSmith · 11-25-2002, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vasten
blah blah blabbetty-fucking-blah blah blah

Interferance in the natural course of this is very arrogant.

Spare me your gibberishly redundant lecture on supply and demand. The presumption that I require the light of your wisdom is arrogance defined.

Dude, if you're hell-bent on raping yourself for a few extra bucks, by all means pound away. Let me know how happy you are when all you can charge is peanuts. Why not go back and read my post. Design skills are considered to be valueable high-tech skills. If you can't justify charging enough money to cover the time that went in to obtaining those skills, then maybe you're not ready to go into business just yet. More training might be your ticket.

CDSmith · 11-25-2002, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by railz
This is what I'm getting at. While some people will try and undercut us with this kind of pricing, in the end they'll learn that they're in fact paying $30 over the odds of a good design from one of us, simply because they'll come back to us to design something worthwhile in the end.

It's not a dictatorship, it's not a monopoly, it's a seal of quality.

It's the same with the painting industry. You have your high-end professionals that do guaranteed work at a premium price, and you have your "College-pro" painters that do barely par work for half the price of the professionals. With the cheaper companies you *may* get a decent paint job on your house that will last you a few years, but if you go with the pro your job is guaranteed for 5 years (or more). You get what you pay for.

Fact is, anyone with excellent skills will always be in high demand no matter how saturated the market gets with competition. Lowering your price down to chicken feed isn't the best way to success, and is often the road to ruin.

Supercharged · 11-25-2002, 12:03 PM

Over and above all of this, what really blows me away is the "succesful" webmaster with traffic, that in order to save $500-1000 goes with some newbie designer and ends up with a site that doesn't convert worth a shit, and is losing hundreds of dollars a day on the shitty conversion ratio, slow delivery time, lack of support, etc...

When they could have paid a pro a fair price, ended up with a kickass design in 3-5 days ( not weeks ) and converted up to 10 TIMES the surfers.

Mind boggling....

redmf · 11-25-2002, 08:37 PM

I'm new at this computer stuff but have been in the custom art biz goin on 30 years, signs, handpainted pinstripe, airbrush murals, and cartoons. The instant sign makers are all the rage! They buy a computer and all of a sudden they are sign artist's. They are SHIT! After they have whored themselfs out and have to go get a job so they can live, it's just us oldtimers left to keep doing what we love to do. Create. Anybody that cut's another persons living with bargin priceing won't be around long! Just long enuff to rack up a chunk of dough on their visa card and go BROKE!

11-25-2002, 03:40 AM	#1
railz Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,531	Deisgner Coalition You know, what with the amount of scamming going around now (I'm not just talking about Amp - this has affected us all) I'm wondering if some kind of coalition would be a good thing. Think of it as a "seal of approval" - designers have to be voted in by other members of the system, their sites all follow a similar code of conduct (for instance, for up-front fees, contracts or whatever) and would off us some form of protection? I'm ready for the flames, but I'm just trying to help out. __________________ This Space for Rent

11-25-2002, 03:41 AM	#3
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	I am my own coalition.... fuck me? I'll give your shit away to everyone.... lol __________________ SIG TOO BIG

11-25-2002, 03:51 AM	#4
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	Teen Angel was on here just a few days ago with a list of people that hadn't paid her for design work. I bet I can dig up 20 other threads pretty quick regarding the same shit. This is fucking ridiculous. You know, I took on a small two-gallery job this past week. The deal was negotiated out in about 20 minutes on Tuesday night, my price was $20 per gallery, $40 total... no biggie. This person said they would paypall me the money up front, which he did.... not $40 but $50. On Wednesday I did the two galleries, ftp'd them up and ICQ'd him, and he told me he loved the galleries. Guess what? Nothing, that's what. He paid me, and I delivered. It wasn't rocket science. Doesn't matter the size of the job, or whether you're the client or the designer, it should be just that simple. Client pays -- designer does the fucking work. Done. Over. No bullshit. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

11-25-2002, 03:55 AM	#5
railz Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,531	You're right CDSmith - but there's some wierd shit going on lately. I've been asked for quotes in the past few weeks and people have been throwing out all kinds of wierd things. One guy wanted a full webmaster site done, and wasn't willing to pay more than $50 for it, and wouldn't pay until the design was uploaded to his server. Yeah, that discussion lated a long time. For a $50 job (a real $50 job, mindyou) I'll do it Pro Bono, but when someone who wants $2000 worth of tours and logos designed won't even give you 25% up front, something is wrong. What I mean is that it seems people have come to see us as the bottom of the food chain. __________________ This Space for Rent

11-25-2002, 03:56 AM	#6
The Other Steve Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sunny Queensland - perfect one day and better the next. Posts: 2,106	Yeah Railz - gotta agree with the others - it probably won't work - there are too many new designers - wannabe writers etc. coming in - they'll get ripped off and either learn or leave and be replaced with more wannabe's. Like CD said - payment up front fixes all the problems. We take payment after the event from two guys who's reputation are rock solid - but no-one else. __________________ Left intentionally blank ... just like my brain

11-25-2002, 03:41 AM	#2
twistyneck So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hanging by the neck until dead. Posts: 4,660	Not a bad idea but seriously, I don't think it would ever work.

11-25-2002, 03:57 AM	#7
railz Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,531	Oh well. Worth a shot - guess it's everyone for themselves then. __________________ This Space for Rent

11-25-2002, 04:08 AM	#9
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	Interesting concept, but most designers, at least the ones I've met personally at shows seem to be the independent type of personality, that wouldn't be into following rules and regs that a coalition would require to maintain its "union / coalition" type of functionality. The other thing is it seems like there are a lot of new designers coming into this biz from the mainstream tech realm all the time, cause of the shortage of work in that sector right now . So if you had a bunch in a coalition, there would always be the freelancers coming in with more competitive offers to do work for someone with less stringent terms. One of the problems with this business when disputes arise is that you tend to see extremely strong opinions on both sides of an argument, as we've seen here recently. Where both parties lliterally swear up and down they didn't rip the other off be it for design work, content buys, traffic deals, etc. Its always hard to really get to the truth. Like when a guy comes out and says I got fucked by so and so for design work, and then so and so comes on to post he didn't deliver the design style I contracted for, or the traffic he sent for the $5K sucked so he owes me more to make up for it, or I paid him money for ocntent and the content wasn't legally released by the photographer, but yet you see a valid appearing release like we had a big issue here with recently. I think maybe a webmaster arbitration court would be a good idea. Where parties in dispute could come to a formally structured board specifically to resolve disputes. That way we would have consistency in how all these fights are handled and there would be a process for submission of evidence to prove and support your case, process of discovery where other webmasters who may have been screwed by the same person would submit supporting documentation, and then a jury of webmasters would study the facts in a serious manner and vote for who should be granted the win for the case. Keep all the records in a public database available to all webmasters that agree to handle dispute matters this way so if you are about to do business with someone you can take a look at their "disputes" records and see what they are all about. If someone doesn't show up for their online arbitration, and basically blows it off, it would be recorded as a summary default judgment just like in the real world. If someone has a lot of disputes in the database, mission would be accomplished, because you'd know anyone getting into so many situations with other webmasters is clearly someone to avoid and not do business with unless you want to take a chance on them of your own free will, at which time you'd have no one to blame but yourself for that decision. Whenever you do a good transaction with someone that person, as part of the rules of the arbitration community, would be obligated to submit a good business reference note in your database file on you, just like they do on ebay, which is why ebay became so successful with millions of total strangers being able to instantly evaluate past performance of someone, be it good or bad, they were buying something from thousands of miles apart. Of course there is the first time scammer that we'd all be vulnerable to still, so you would only want to do business with someone who is listed with all their real background info in this webmaster community database who have agreed to this process of arbitration already should a dispute arise. Anyone outside the box, who wouldn't be in the database, with all their references for good deals done prior listed, you would know is a chance bet to do business with then. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains Last edited by KRL; 11-25-2002 at 04:15 AM..

11-25-2002, 04:25 AM	#13
Scootermuze Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 4,513	I'm not a designer, nor a purchaser of designs, but it seems to me if designers don't get paid, there is an issue of 'theft of services' as well as 'theft of copyrighted material' if the sites are being used without compensation.

11-25-2002, 12:03 PM	#20
Supercharged Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: B.C., Canada Posts: 219	Over and above all of this, what really blows me away is the "succesful" webmaster with traffic, that in order to save $500-1000 goes with some newbie designer and ends up with a site that doesn't convert worth a shit, and is losing hundreds of dollars a day on the shitty conversion ratio, slow delivery time, lack of support, etc... When they could have paid a pro a fair price, ended up with a kickass design in 3-5 days ( not weeks ) and converted up to 10 TIMES the surfers. Mind boggling.... __________________ Stephan ICQ 4491799 Supercharged Web Designs Web Hosting Adult Design

11-25-2002, 08:37 PM	#21
redmf Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: all over the U.S. Posts: 77	I'm new at this computer stuff but have been in the custom art biz goin on 30 years, signs, handpainted pinstripe, airbrush murals, and cartoons. The instant sign makers are all the rage! They buy a computer and all of a sudden they are sign artist's. They are SHIT! After they have whored themselfs out and have to go get a job so they can live, it's just us oldtimers left to keep doing what we love to do. Create. Anybody that cut's another persons living with bargin priceing won't be around long! Just long enuff to rack up a chunk of dough on their visa card and go BROKE! __________________ http://www.rachelseroticdiary.com