The greatest hockey player of all time and ...

[Mutt]

his name ain't Gretzky

[Nicky]

Hard to compare like that

[InsaneMidget]

He was good, not sure the best...My favorite goal of all time was from Mario:

It's starts around 3:20 min...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=TWy5qmNUZMo

[Furious_Male]

He was ahead of his time thats for certain.

[SilentKnight]

...and he had magical powers of flight!

[Spunky]

Bobby sure made people look like they were standing still

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

...and he had magical powers of flight!

that goal is one of my first memories of being on this planet. it was a warm sunny spring day, and Bobby Orr did indeed fly through the air.

i have no problem with people who were born 1970 onward thinking Gretzky or Lemieux are the greatest ever - their stats speak for themselves.

The difference with Bobby Orr is that you don't have to look at his stats - you just had to watch him and you knew it.

And if you look at his stats - leading the league in scoring multiple times as a DEFENCEMAN - and his plus/minus record which will never be broken - they also speak for themselves.

Just a shame his knees were shot so soon and his career was so short.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Yeah Bobby Orr was one of a kind, such a phenomenon and a huge loss for the sport that he had to quit his career so early.

He might be definitely challenged with Wayne and Mario, those are like the best of the best, phenomenons only comparable to Michael Jordan in NBA a likes.

I can think of only one defensemen coming close to him, was always a HUGE fan of Paul Coffey, damn he was flying on the skates.

[potter]

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

Yeah Bobby Orr was one of a kind, such a phenomenon and a huge loss for the sport that he had to quit his career so early.

He might be definitely challenged with Wayne and Mario, those are like the best of the best, phenomenons only comparable to Michael Jordan in NBA a likes.

I can think of only one defensemen coming close to him, was always a HUGE fan of Paul Coffey, damn he was flying on the skates.

true - only Coffey as a defenceman can be included in any conversation about Bobby Orr - but only offensively and skating wise, Coffey was a mess in his own end other than skating the puck out of it - most people don't know how tough Orr was, he rarely fought but when he did he could take care of himself and he was very strong.

lost all his money to his snake of an agent - middle aged and broke - rebuilt himself into a millionaire.

[VeriSexy]

I still think Mario was the best.. but orr is no slouch

[Machete_]

It's funny that a Old hockey clip like that still looks good, but if you watch a old soccer game or baseball (no that I compare it to hockey) they look fruity.

[Phil]

You all need to wake the fuck up. Neither of those guys had complete package like this guy.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by CAMOKAT

You all need to wake the fuck up. Neither of those guys had complete package like this guy.

you are a moronic fanboy - Ovechkin's career has just started - he is a great player, he may be the greatest player of his generation before he's finished, let the next 10 years go by - BUT to compare him to Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky makes you look like a hockey know nothing.

it's laughable. Orr revolutionized his postion - the difference between Orr in his prime and the next player closest to him was the width of an ocean - Gretzky the same - that is how you measure greatness across eras and generations - how much better was a player than those he competed against.

When Ovechkin puts up a 200 point season or puts up a +140 plus/minus number or leads the league in scoring as a defenceman let me know.

Ovechkin will be an all time great and one day maybe he will be discussed with Orr and Gretzky - but not now, only a fanboy who lives in this moment and only this moment would put Ovechkin into the same sentence as Orr and Gretzky.

[EscortBiz]

fucking amazing

[ContentSHOOTER]

Bobby Orr may not have been the greatest, but he did have some amazing skills

[Hank_Heartland]

I give my vote to this guy



Define left winger and oh the 120mph slapshot

[Phil]

Originally Posted by Mutt

BUT to compare him to Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky makes you look like a hockey know nothing.

so you telling me 2/3 of your country knows jack shit about hockey because they the jack off on "next one" Crosby.

[SilentKnight]

Originally Posted by Mutt

that goal is one of my first memories of being on this planet. it was a warm sunny spring day, and Bobby Orr did indeed fly through the air.

i have no problem with people who were born 1970 onward thinking Gretzky or Lemieux are the greatest ever - their stats speak for themselves.

The difference with Bobby Orr is that you don't have to look at his stats - you just had to watch him and you knew it.

And if you look at his stats - leading the league in scoring multiple times as a DEFENCEMAN - and his plus/minus record which will never be broken - they also speak for themselves.

Just a shame his knees were shot so soon and his career was so short.

Quite agreed.

As a kid growin' up - hockey players were always my heroes. Orr, Dave Keon, Mahovalich, Esposito, Ken Dryden, Daryl Sittler...my era.

But one of my best moments happened just a few years back - I got the chance to meet and talk to Paul Henderson while he was on a motivational speech tour. I was eight when he scored the famous goal against the Soviets in '72....and that's still my most vivid memory as a kid.

He was no Bobby Orr, of course - just another player who happened to be in the right place at the right time when we needed him.

[KillerK]

Crosy is better then Alex the Great anyway

[Phil]

Originally Posted by KillerK

Crosy is better then Alex the Great anyway

ammmmm, ooookey....

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by CAMOKAT

so you telling me 2/3 of your country knows jack shit about hockey because they the jack off on "next one" Crosby.

just like you - people tend to jock their own - Canadians want Crosby to be the best player on the planet following in the footsteps of Orr and Gretzky. I like Ovechkin better and so do lots of Canadian and American fans.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Hank_Heartland

I give my vote to this guy



Define left winger and oh the 120mph slapshot

Bobby Hull was a force and a unique player - rated the best player in hockey during the mid 60's until Orr came along.

the mantle of best player on the planet timeline goes like this - Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Guy Lafleur, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and now the debate is on between Ovechkin and Crosby and I agree with Camokat that Ovechkin is better - but they have a good 10-15 years ahead to decide that. Maybe another phenom will emerge during their time.

there were Soviet players who played outside the NHL during the 60's and 70's that were right up there with Hull and Lafleur - Anatoly Firsov and Kharlamov

there are old timers who still say Gordie Howe is the greatest - played until he was 51 and was the toughest strongest son of a bitch while still about the best offensive player in hockey.

I think it's Orr vs Gretzky and I think Orr was the best. Gretzky did it all with smarts and with a great supporting cast and a goon protecting him at all times. Nobody protected Orr. If you took a person to a hockey game who had never seen one before - and you told him Gretzky was the greatest he'd say 'That guy? 99? He skates kinda funny. I didn't see him do that much." Then you'd go to the scoring summary and see Gretzky had 2 goals and 3 assists.

[Hank_Heartland]

Originally Posted by Mutt

Bobby Hull was a force and a unique player - rated the best player in hockey during the mid 60's until Orr came along.

the mantle of best player on the planet timeline goes like this - Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Guy Lafleur, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and now the debate is on between Ovechkin and Crosby and I agree with Camokat that Ovechkin is better - but they have a good 10-15 years ahead to decide that. Maybe another phenom will emerge during their time.

there were Soviet players who played outside the NHL during the 60's and 70's that were right up there with Hull and Lafleur - Anatoly Firsov and Kharlamov

there are old timers who still say Gordie Howe is the greatest - played until he was 51 and was the toughest strongest son of a bitch while still about the best offensive player in hockey.

I think it's Orr vs Gretzky and I think Orr was the best. Gretzky did it all with smarts and with a great supporting cast and a goon protecting him at all times. Nobody protected Orr. If you took a person to a hockey game who had never seen one before - and you told him Gretzky was the greatest he'd say 'That guy? 99? He skates kinda funny. I didn't see him do that much." Then you'd go to the scoring summary and see Gretzky had 2 goals and 3 assists.

Well said and the debate goes on

[jigga]

Orr had a pretty good supporting cast in Boston too with Espo and Bucyk. I'll take Wanye over Bobby any day.

Rocket has to mentioned up there too in any "greats of hockey" discussion.

What about best goalie of all time? I'd give it to Roy.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by Mutt

there were Soviet players who played outside the NHL during the 60's and 70's that were right up there with Hull and Lafleur - Anatoly Firsov and Kharlamov

Let's not forget probably the best single line of all time outside of NHL - Makarov, Larionov, Krutov, Kasatonov, Fetisov.

All those guys went to the NHL after the Soviet times (Sergei Makarov, Vladimir Krutov and Alexander Kasatonov didn't last that long as Igor Larionov and Vyacheslav Fetisov) but they still made their mark.

I remember I had Igor Larionov's no.8 on my helmet as a kid.

Originally Posted by Mutt

I think it's Orr vs Gretzky and I think Orr was the best. Gretzky did it all with smarts and with a great supporting cast and a goon protecting him at all times. Nobody protected Orr. If you took a person to a hockey game who had never seen one before - and you told him Gretzky was the greatest he'd say 'That guy? 99? He skates kinda funny. I didn't see him do that much." Then you'd go to the scoring summary and see Gretzky had 2 goals and 3 assists.

That's seems like comparing uncomparable to me - a playmaker with a defenseman, you simply cannot compare Wayne with Bobby Orr, because Wayne was someone every team has - a playmaker / an MVP / the scoring leader / a brain of all the power plays and a man for the last minutes of the game - so it makes the perfect sense that every team has to assure their most valuable offensive asset is in the best shape possible.

Bobby Orr was something that was never on the ice before, a defenseman AND a playmaker / hell even a scorer.

I mean you can't compare players in two positions that are so different, they both got a whole lot of gameplay / minutes on average / played the power plays etc. but their roles / pace / style / movement / even physical constitution were completely different.

I would personally be very much interested in how would all time Mario Lemieux stats look like if there was not so much downtime due to the bad health.



Let's phrase the question differently, how about the most gifted player of all time?

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by jigga

Orr had a pretty good supporting cast in Boston too with Espo and Bucyk. I'll take Wanye over Bobby any day.

Rocket has to mentioned up there too in any "greats of hockey" discussion.

What about best goalie of all time? I'd give it to Roy.

Pretty tough with the goalie, I can obviously speak only about the say 1985 + era, never seen the greats like Terry Sawchuk or other old school guys.

Would have a hard time choosing between Roy / Hasek and Martin Brodeur.

[Chauncy]

they is only one person you can argue against Orr and that is this guy

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

Let's not forget probably the best single line of all time outside of NHL - Makarov, Larionov, Krutov, Kasatonov, Fetisov.

I would personally be very much interested in how would all time Mario Lemieux stats look like if there was not so much downtime due to the bad health.

Let's phrase the question differently, how about the most gifted player of all time?

yeah that starting five for the Soviets was probably the best 5 man unit ever - god knows how many years they played together. They were all nearing the end of their careers when they jumped to the NHL. Fetisov is a Hall of Famer for sure, think he already made it actually, to me he was the Russian Dennis Potvin. He adapted well to the NHL, Kasatonov not so much. Krutov was the disaster - I forget who, probably Don Cherry, called him Crouton - he showed up in Vancouver as a little fatso and didn't last long.

Lemieux suffered from the bias most fans have of big men - they never look like they are moving fast or playing hard. It's unfair. Mario though created some of his own problems - he never expressed a passion for the game or displayed it - until he was near the end.

Lemieux may have been the most gifted player of all - simply because of his tremendous size plus the stickhandling skills and scoring touch.

Gretzky did the most with the least by far - I love watching the old videos of his father working with him as a kid, all the tricks, all the magical 'vision' people say he had - none of it was natural, it was his father teaching him and him soaking it up like a sponge for hours and years on the ice and off it.

Nobody mentions Eric Lindros - if you look at his stats for the first few years he was in the league before he started getting hurt - only Gretzky and Lemieux have had a higher point per game average in the NHL.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Chauncy

they is only one person you can argue against Orr and that is this guy

There are still old timers who stick by Gordie Howe as the best of all time. He was the total package.

[d-null]

I agree that the decision should be based on how a player compared to the rest that he played with.

Gretzky gets bonus points for being a skinny guy that his skills and game vision were so far and above that his physical size was overcome by lots. He played with focus almost all the time, but he could take it to an even higher level that was near superhuman, like when he decided to score five goals in one game to destroy the record, it was eerie.

[jigga]

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

Pretty tough with the goalie, I can obviously speak only about the say 1985 + era, never seen the greats like Terry Sawchuk or other old school guys.

Would have a hard time choosing between Roy / Hasek and Martin Brodeur.

Brodeur is up there for sure, but in the Devils system it's hard for a goalie not to shine. If you put him on the teams that Roy and Hasek played with he may not have been as great.

Hasek's stats are amazing but Roy just had that extra special thing about him much like Gretz, Mario and Mess. The 1993 cup was all his doing.

[Hank_Heartland]

Originally Posted by jigga

Orr had a pretty good supporting cast in Boston too with Espo and Bucyk. I'll take Wanye over Bobby any day.

Rocket has to mentioned up there too in any "greats of hockey" discussion.

What about best goalie of all time? I'd give it to Roy.

Let's not forget this goalie, Hockey Hall of Famer...
Tony Esposito

[hypedough]

Originally Posted by Mutt

you are a moronic fanboy - Ovechkin's career has just started - he is a great player, he may be the greatest player of his generation before he's finished, let the next 10 years go by - BUT to compare him to Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky makes you look like a hockey know nothing.

it's laughable. Orr revolutionized his postion - the difference between Orr in his prime and the next player closest to him was the width of an ocean - Gretzky the same - that is how you measure greatness across eras and generations - how much better was a player than those he competed against.

When Ovechkin puts up a 200 point season or puts up a +140 plus/minus number or leads the league in scoring as a defenceman let me know.

Ovechkin will be an all time great and one day maybe he will be discussed with Orr and Gretzky - but not now, only a fanboy who lives in this moment and only this moment would put Ovechkin into the same sentence as Orr and Gretzky.

This is the realest shit I've heard on hockey. Props Mutt, didn't realize you were such a hockey fanatic

And Patrick Roy is only guy I watched that ever made me want to play goalie. But being a defenseman was good enough.

[huey]

Orr best +/- ever

The following year, 1971, in a season where the powerhouse Bruins shattered dozens of league offensive records, Orr finished second in league scoring while setting records that still stand for points in a season by a defenceman and for plus/minus (+124) by any position player.

Closest player to this was Wayne at plus 90

[PornstarXS]

super mario all the way, he would have crushed getzky's single season record if it wasnt for his bout with cancer (my high school days were laced with those arguments over our annual season and playoff pools). Mario had to do all the work himself, making the others into stars (like mike jordan). too bad his career was cut too short - i kind of lost interest in hockey once i hit university.

but the sport doesnt seem the same now, too soft now, the old days you could hammer guys and thats what made it even harder to be a superstar. nowadays you sneeze on a guy and they give you a penalty. back 15 years ago, you had to be an all around great player. nowadays you have to be fast and slippery because no one can hit you. where's the brian marchment knee clips during the playoffs? i guess the game changes drastically every 10-15 years.

anyone want joe sakic rookies? i have 20

[Chauncy]

So I mad this thread the topic of discussion in the locker room tonight before my hockey game

and its funny how nobody who plays or played hockey ever says gretzky you gotta play on both sides at the same level to be the best and wayno was a terrible defensive forward not just because of his size but he played bad defensive position in his own zone.

anyway the argument was really Howe, Orr, and Mario and really there is a good case for each and I cannot say who was really better.

so then we went to the who would be your all time #1 line

mine
lw Bobby Hull
ct Stevie Y (yeah I said it best two way center of all time)
rw Gordie
df Orr
df Lidstrom

GL this is tough becTerry and Ton were so so good but in the end I go Brodeur

[d-null]

you're being silly now Chauncy

[Chauncy]

Originally Posted by d-null

you're being silly now Chauncy

silly how?? Please don't tell me the yzerman thing because he does have more career points then Mario and 4 Selke nominations and one win also a Pearson (MVP)

[Spunky]

Eddie Shack and Tiger Williams

[d-null]

Originally Posted by Chauncy

silly how?? Please don't tell me the yzerman thing because he does have more career points then Mario and 4 Selke nominations and one win also a Pearson (MVP)

silly in your statement that "and its funny how nobody who plays or played hockey ever says gretzky "

[Chauncy]

Originally Posted by d-null

silly in your statement that "and its funny how nobody who plays or played hockey ever says gretzky "

was he the greatest scorer yes was he the greatest play maker yes was he the greatest player no

and as for my statement it could just be a detroit/windsor but he gets no love here

[d-null]

Originally Posted by Chauncy

was he the greatest scorer yes was he the greatest play maker yes was he the greatest player no

and as for my statement it could just be a detroit/windsor but he gets no love here

ok, but I've played and never was a great fan, but I think that I would have to logically say he was the greatest, and I know for a fact that I have seen many interviews of top level NHL players that when asked the question who the greatest was, Wayne Gretzky is a very common answer

[Chauncy]

Originally Posted by d-null

ok, but I've played and never was a great fan, but I think that I would have to logically say he was the greatest, and I know for a fact that I have seen many interviews of top level NHL players that when asked the question who the greatest was, Wayne Gretzky is a very common answer

your right I have heard it before on espn and cbc and tsn but I have also heard the same point of view I have supported on all those same places as well, but what I am referring two is the off camera sitting around a table at a bar or in a locker room you don't hear it nearly as much if at all

[d-null]

here is an interesting list made up of voting by media experts and ex players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Hockey_ News


1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Maurice Richard
....



I tend to agree with their list

[Chauncy]

Originally Posted by d-null

here is an interesting list made up of voting by media experts and ex players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Hockey_ News


1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Maurice Richard
....



I tend to agree with their list

come on that list is a joke yzerman 78??? top ten in points, goal, assists

no broduer???

no cam neely

come on that list is crap

the hockey news did a to 60 list to and yzerman was 6th on that list so I mean I don't know I trust the hockey news over a wiki list shit I mean I can right a wiki list doesn't make it true