MoreMagic

Yes and they proudly inform us about that at the bottom of this page

Spunky

Really quite surprised how Jupiter turned out.

__________________

MoreMagic

Great finally a bizz talk again on GFY

VIPimp

They are or were located like 5 minutes away from my office... want me to pay them a visit for you? lol

boneprone

What kind of Attorney do I need here.


People are telling me to lawyer up. Shit the only Attorney Ive ever worked with was a Criminal Defense Attorney.. He was expensive. And we went to trial and lost. (long story)

I dont think I need one of those guys. And I dont want to pay THOUSANDS for an attorney for this bullshit shakedown. (this is a shakedown no matter how you look at it)

What the process in getting an attorney? Last time I just asked around for who was the best. (it was to keep me out of jail)

This time I want something cheap. If im fighting over 9k, i dont want to pay 3k for an attorney.

What and how do I get one that can do the job for me?

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

mmcfadden

uhmmmm..... just have friends my man. stop asking where youre help is...

boneprone

My "friends" got me into this contract.

Where is my fucking help. None of you are my fucking friend.

None of you.

My real family are the ones in this house of mine.

Not GFY... Not the Industry. Fuck em. And Fuck em all.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

mmcfadden

maybe you have friends in small places

Tjeezers

Quote: Where is my fucking help. None of you are my fucking friend.

true words spoken
when it comes down to problems, everyone is on his own. It is one of those lessons life learned me, and fortunately you are confronted with this lesson also.
Friendships in this industry are 99% based on money.

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boneprone

Dont taunt me Tanto.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

Ethersync

You don't need a lawyer right now. Dispute the debt. Did you see the flowchart I posted on page 3? Do that and then if that doesn't solve your problem decide your next move. Whatever you do that is your first move.

boneprone

Actually I do have friends in this biz. And yes I would consider them Family. Very good friends.

Shit guys. Im just pissed here. I dont know what the fuck im saying.

Ive been in this biz for 10 years now. I have some really good friends. And will be even after I or they leave this biz.

Even the old Jupiter guys. Shit Im pissed but I dont think they meant for this to happen. Not to me anyhow. We go back way too far...

Its this new company plain and simple. And its a shakedown and nothing less.

Im just a pissed off dog barking at anyone here. Dont take it too serious. Im just really upset. I think anyone would be.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

boneprone

Yep. For sure. Thanks mang.

__________________

Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones
Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

pocketkangaroo

Unless they have actually served you with a lawsuit, I wouldn't worry about lawyers. They can run around claiming you owe money all they want, it doesn't matter. Until someone shows up at your door to serve you papers, legally they are owed nothing.

Now I'd also keep a check on your credit reports. If this does show up, immediately dispute the claim with the credit reporting agencies. They will then have to show proof that you owe the debt. This is not always easy for a collection agency as they have to go back to the hosting company and get the details. They only have 30 days to do this.

Other than that, just wait. If it's not on your credit report and you're not being sued, it's not a problem. If you are getting a lot of calls, tell them to stop calling you. By law they have to do so.

Don't let fuckers like this push you around.

Tjeezers

fortunately ... needed to be Unfortunately
stupid typo

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boneprone

Im concerned about this Default shit everyone talks about.
Im not going to ignore it now.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

mpahlca

Hey man, sorry to hear this and I agree no one on GFY or in this biz is your friend they are in it for themselves if helping you helps them fantastic, as for an attorney, I really think at this price point you are not looking great, you can get one to read the contract for you and give you advice probably cost you in the range of 250 an hour and any contract lawyer or local lawyer "should" be able to do that.

I wish you the best of luck man I always enjoyed your posts, and of course surfing your sites.

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Penthouse Tony

Boneprone has been dealing with this for almost a year. I remember him telling me about the troubles he had with them when we were watching the superbowl. I thought it was all over by now.

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CDSmith

Just phone the largest law firm that's closest to you, they should have the kind of lawyer you need on staff. Make an appointment, go tell them your story and bring your docs with you and within about 15 or 20 mins they should be able to let you know what your recouse is and ballpark you as to what it will cost.

Make sure they have a free consultation. Nothing sucks worse than talking to someone who ends up not being able to help you and then you still have to pay them something.

Oh, and paying a couple of grand to a lawyer to save yourself $9K (or more) sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Like BradM said, explore options with your lawyer for a possible countersuit, and get all your costs back and maybe a little extra on top of it. If this is a shakedown as you say it is then you deserve no less than full compensation, right?

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Ethersync

Good luck man.

DollarKing

If you are spending a lot of money per month on hosting anyway why have you not considered going it alone and buying your own server instead?
I know people running sites from their pc even.

pocketkangaroo

A default judgment is only if you are served with a lawsuit, told to appear in court on a specific day, and you don't show up. Have you been served with a lawsuit yet that tells you when to appear in court? If not, there is no way to get a default judgment.

WiredGuy

From a legal point of view, it seems your stuck paying the bill because you missed the deadline to inform them of cancelling the server. You can try claiming you sent notice earlier and they didn't get it but that'll be hard to prove. At this point, you unfortunately need to contact a corporate attorney and based on his/her advice a litigation attorney. It seems Jupiter is throwing everything at collecting and its time to step up your defence. Don't wait until you are served, get an attorney's opinion asap. Have your attorney contact them for a settlement. You'd be surprised that it wouldn't cost that much if you do a settlement, probably $1k in legal fees plus the settlement amount.
WG

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dav3

that sucks ass, good luck man

__________________

d-null

__________________

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MoreMagic

Go to sleep

Tjeezers

Insomnia weekend... no idea why i cant sleep
It does fuck up my concentration a little

Anyway, bump to keep this thread on top, would love to see this settled.

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BV

friends will always fuck you

i had the same thing happen to me from a friend back in 2002, i had a dedicated from a buddy of mine at a mainstream isp host that had a few racks in nice data center in Gainesville.

When I switched to www.phatservers.com because they were priced way better than my buddy and I gave him every chance to get competitive. no dice, so i left and went to phat.

i think i got stuck with around a 5k dollar bill also

he aint my friend no more either, the cocksucker!

Tjeezers

as long friendship is not based on economical reasons, there is a fair chance that it will last a long time. I do have some friends who i put my hands for in the fire. But those come rare. Anyways, there is a forum for hosting companies, WHT its called, or better said web hosting talk. I think when you drop the issue there you get responses from hosting owners, and those might help much better.

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boneprone

This is the EXACT advice I would give you if I was you and you were me.

I think this is the right move and what I will be doing this next week.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

d-null

guess we better be reading anything we are signing pretty carefully with the scams companies are trying to pull in the fine print

__________________

__________________

mmcfadden

good friends will never fuck you... even those you may not know right now. Don't pay a dime my brother and hit me up tomorrow...

i'll push forward and i've heard this bullshit before... which is why I say you can join my team...

boneprone

What did you do?
Pay it?

Or settle, or tell him to fuck off?

__________________

Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones
Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

onlymovies

Damn BP, that sucks man. Wasn't that Poppy guy the face of that company for a while? I know he's not there anymore, but i would think he would have some really good insight/advice for you. He must know something to help? I mean, he was there taking on new clients for Jupiter, sending out contracts, he must have some experiences with people canceling their Jupiter service??

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Fenris Wolf

My first suggestion is to slow down. I know there is a lot of emotion over this but it won't help your situation. I have been sued and gone to court multiple times (please don't ask) and it's not as intimidating as it might seem. There is a lot of good advice people have already posted.

For the sum they are demanding from you, based on the breach of contract (not canceling within the specified amount of time), it is accurate that chances are this will wind up in small claims court. That is why you see the high level of harassment from debt collectors. Jupiter doesn't pay a fee unless they get some kind of payment from you, hence the aggressive nature. Since it would be small claims court, they can not hire a lawyer to represent them, but agents of the company must be present (there are exclusions to this).

My suggestion is to step back and take this from the beginning and document every communication between Jupiter and yourself. If any debt collector contacts you inform them that you will only communicate with Jupiter and if you receive any future communication from any debt collection agency, you will file harassment charges.

Contact Jupiter either through their lawyer, if they have one, or directly and request a copy of the contract signed by you. If they can not produce the contract they will have a hard time proving your debt in court. It is the responsibility of the plaintiff to prove their case. Hopefully in the transition the contract was lost. If they are able to provide the contract you have a tougher uphill battle. Although certain portions of a contract can be found void in court, a lot of contracts have provisions that state if any portion of the contract is void not all parts of the contract are void as well. This pertains to section c) you posted.

Before any liens on your property can be placed a judgment must be filed by the courts in your jurisdiction. Default judgments do not exist unless you have been served by a officer of the court and you have failed to appear at the designated time. If they do serve you and have to go to court they must prove their case and then you will be given the opportunity to testify. Most courts now, to ease case back logs, will ask you to either discuss the matter prior to the judge hearing the case, to see if you can settle this on your own, or have a court appointed mediator to facilitate a resolution.

But of course you would like to avoid going to court at all which means either settling for a smaller dollar amount or going to mediation.

Now this is a simple description of the process and there are situations that deviate from what I have described. The best advice is to take what documents you have and take it to a contract lawyer. This is not something that should cost a lot. But what you do end up paying will probably be the best advice you can get. It's all about the letter of the law and what can be proved.

I hope this helps and I have probably left out some details but if you have any more questions just hit me up on ICQ 493 763 025.

stickyfingerz

Man I hardly know you, think we met once or twice maybe, but don't give up on the good people in this industry. I continually bend over backwards for people that work in this industry only to end up fucked in the ass by people I thought were my friends, it happens, but there are still people that won't do something to intentionally fuck someone over, and I continue to trust too much. Don't know if that makes me, or this industry the stupid one, but I feel for you no doubt.

BV

i paid it because he had my server hostage

and it was a pretty new badass raid for back then

contracts suck

it was the best thing that ever happened to me though

phatservers is way way better

TidalWave

If you talk to your lawyer --- there may be a limitation in the amount of time that the contract can keep renewing itself in either your state (if you're not in CA), or in CA itself.

Also, dig through the contract ... perhaps certain terms listed in the contract have not been honored, or have been changed in the past 4 years or when the company was purchased -- thus having the company default on the contract.

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boneprone

Yep. He's the one I signed the contract with.
I talked to him on icq today about it. Asked him if he knew anyting and he said he didnt.

Id like to believe him. Maybe he really didnt know what he was signing people up for.
Hate to think that he did.

__________________

Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones
Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

fatal attraction

I just sent you a icq of a great lawyer in the biz! Good luck to you!

boneprone

I didnt get the icq.

What icq are you people sending to???

Its 66883099

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

SuzzyQ

Boneprone,
Did you get my message on ICQ?.. If not, here it is... Something to think about an have others on here throw in their 2 cents worth...

Does your contract say ANYTHING that the contract is between you and Jupiter hosting?. Does it say that the contract is valid between you and Jupiter hosting IN THE EVENT Jupiter is sold, your contract is valid with the new owners?. Thats the key point right their.

You have/had a contract with Jupiter hosting. Do you have a contract between you and Navisite?.

Do you see where we are going with this?. You had a contract with Jupiter not with Navisite. That *MIGHT* be a loophole for you...

Im courious what others think about this angle to work with and by all means, let me know about your thoughts...

SuzzyQ

Oh yea.. I DID sent to 66883099

boneprone

Anyone know if this is a legit point?
Ill bring this up to my Attorney Next week.

__________________

Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones
Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

onlymovies

What does your gut tell you? That's your answer.

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Brad Mitchell

STOP







Do I have your attention yet?






Seriously, you as the reader, are you here for kicks or to get business done?





If you've got any interest in this thread or subject, take 5 minutes to read my post.






I could probably rant here for pages but since the attention span here on GFY is shorter all the time I'll do my best to be brief. I've already engaged my legal counsel several times on behalf of friends and clients regarding Jupiter Hosting (NaviSite) and their contract for providing service. Before I share my thoughts, however, I need to bitch at every single one of you for some minutes....

It's not the Wild West. It never was. You all just drink too much at the tradeshows and have been spoiled by the prevalent informality of our industry over the last ten years. One way or another, many of you who were spoiled pre-contract kind of got what you paid for in the long run.

Even if you are hypothetically the recipient of bad service with NaviSite, you have precarious cancellation rights.

This is just business. The contract that was executed by hundreds uses standard terminology, clauses, fees, penalties and limitations of your rights. Contracts are no different from any carrier, data center or other hosting company that has clients execute such agreements. Don't believe me? Read what you might have signed from Cavecreek, National Net, Equinix, Switch and Data, Cogent, Level3 - any contract whatsoever for hosting, bandwidth or co-location service from anywhere. Although there might be some slight variances, any contract worth a sh!t will AT LEAST include the following:

1) A requirement that formal notice be provided within X days of renewal.
2) An automatic renewal for successive periods, typically 12 months at a time, if notice is not properly given as required.
3) That any cancellation does not relieve you from the full liability of the contract. By my observance, about half of the agreements out there actually accelerate the damages/fees to being immediately due.

......and much, much more.

They have all of the rights, that is the purpose to having a contract executed. Are you all blind? Jupiter was bundled for sale with a valuation based on it's assets, liabilities and contracts in place for continued service. This is why there were excellent promotions at the time which required a 2 year term contract - it increased Ray's multiple (the valuation). And good for Ray, seriously, all of you who were friends with him at the time should be pleased that he had a successful exit. Shame on you for suggesting he did a bad thing - you signed the contract and furthermore, he had no way of knowing how the new owner would truly handle service and support post-sale.

Suggesting this is Ray's fault is NO DIFFERENT or less absurd than a minor's parent bitching at you for what their kids are surfing online in their home. Personal responsibility, people. Dude wanted to retire or move on, good for him, this is how business evolves.

You didn't read what you signed, perhaps you never do. If this is the instance that learns you the life and business lesson which helps you on some future business decision, great. Let's at least make the glass half full here, everyone needs to learn this business lesson. There's no 'bro' club when it comes to contracts. When you sign, the paper (unless properly disputed legally) is the final word and if terms aren't met then you're OWNED. All contracts worth a sh!t immediately make void/null any previous or future verbal agreements and will establish themselves as the deal authority.

NaviSite is a 100+ million dollar business. Yes you have been turned over to a real lawyer. Before it got to them, it was at a real collection agency which likely put it on your credit report. As previously mentioned in this thread, they are counting on a default judgement or to win in a court of law. What? You don't think a lawyer will do an hours work on the phone in advance and take 2 hours out of his day for a brief court appearance to make a few K? LOL By virtue of the fact that you are already this far along in the process you have already been reduced to statistics and probabilities - totally worth their time.

Everyone's first response to something like this should be to contact an attorney if they don't plan on paying the bill due to either hardship or disagreement.



OK, now that I've brow beat all of you - just know that it's out of love. Here is what else I have to say:

1) Hands down, based upon what I have been told, NaviSite *may* have abusive collections practices. I've had stories recanted to me of people who were sworn at, hung up on, threatened inappropriately.

2) It *may* be a common practice to obfuscate the cancellation process. I say may, but I've already worked with several people where this has been by all appearances true. I have had multiple clients given the run-around. One of which even gave proper notice on one server prior to the 45 days and then a short while later on the other two servers and was STILL coerced into paying for future service where it was clearly not reasonable.

3) If you are not in arrears with NaviSite and are a co-location customer you HAVE THE RIGHT to have your equipment shipped to another host. Contractually, you're still on the hook for your term but if you're exiting don't allow them to falsely suggest otherwise. (I also watched this scenario play out).

4) There might be some instances where they DO NOT HAVE PAPERWORK. I strongly suggest that even if you have maintained a copy of your contract that it not be shared. They have been known to be in pursuit of some debts for which they have no documentation on file.


My advice? Well, here are a few thoughts:

- The service isn't good, begin documenting support errors.
- Put in cancellation notice as far in advance as possible, properly and demand confirmation that your request has been received.
- Setup a migration plan to a host that suits your needs for service, performance, trust and pricing.

Hosts like myself and perhaps a few others are fully committed to providing exceptional value and service, ongoing. Personally, I put my money where my mouth is. I have purchased millions in equipment thus far, on handshake deals. I'll tell you what, that in my opinion is the most honest motivator in the world for 100% customer satisfaction which includes exceptional pricing and service.

There is nothing wrong with contracts if you are open to signing them, certainly many situations ought to have them in place. The onus is on you as the customer to make sure that you find the terms of any such contract fair and reasonable, BEFORE SIGNING. I have more than many millions under contract with my signature to provide my clients with exceptional service but I had every single line of all those documents reviewed and quite a bit revised. It's costly, time consuming and often a pain in the ass - sometimes deals die as a result - but it's a true cost of doing business.

Yes, I sign significant agreements to provide service to MojoHost clients who give us nothing but a handshake. This keeps us sharp, motivated, flexible by virtue of client ability to pick a new provider at will. While this won't scale infinitely in my business plan, it is certainly an excellent foundation until revenues get to a point where bank covenants eventually demand it. We've certainly earned the right to put smart contracts in front of our clients, just as any competitors do, however it is not yet standard practice.

I am of the opinion that as hosting is the center of your online world, you should be free to leave if service is not meeting yours needs. I also believe that an appreciative host will not only work with you to facilitate this, but make the transition easy. Every host errors from time to time, it is how they respond to their client and whether or not they seek to learn from the situation which defines them. We're not perfect, nobody is, but we try damn hard. When we do make a mistake we work 110% to fix it regardless of time and money cost. Furthermore, we are always learning from our mistakes and implementing measures to prevent them from repeating.

Finally, if you are already in the process of a dispute or conceive that it is on your horizon I suggest that you retain legal counsel that can properly represent your best interests. I personally recommend the one who represents MojoHost and also all of my personal interests: Corey Silverstein.

His skills and the resources of his firm are exceptional. If you want the best in any contractual dispute, negotiation or litigation he has my highest recommendation. I consume around 300 billable hours annually and I think this fact speaks for itself.

If you are already a friend of mine then a discount will be offered on his already fair rate. If you are decided to make a move to MojoHost, you bill for legal services may have the potential for further offset. In any circumstance, if you have a real situation don't just get yourself any lawyer - hire the best. I often observe that individuals attempting to resolve complex legal scenarios do themselves a substantial dis-service.

As coincidence has it, Mr. Silverstein will be my "side arm" at Internext and available for meetings and consultation Monday through Wednesday.. as am I.


Happy Holidays,

Brad Mitchell

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stickyfingerz

My gut would say Poppy is a great guy, and doubt he would go in for those shenanigans.

Brad Mitchell

Nice thought but completely invalid here. next.

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boneprone

My gut tells me im gunna kick the fucking shit out of him when I see him. Ill bring firends since Poppy is a pretty strong guy. Im sure he will get his licks in too. It will be a good exercise for us both, probably ending in a hug with some teeth knocked out in us both.

But my heart says I love the guy. He's my bro. We shared Strippers and had good times together. I really like the guy. Its just biz. He needed to pay the bills. He didnt make the contracts, he had to put food on the table selling em.

But I dont think he was stupid enough to really not know what was on that contract.
He had to know.

But yeah poppy and I are cool. I honestly still like the guy even if I did find out he knew and lied to me just now. He needed to pay his bills. He was just a sales guy.

I really dont think Jupiter ever intended to use the powers this contract has. It was more just to protect them. In the event if anyone ever tried to screw them. I dont think they made this to on purpose try to shake people down.

Honestly now after ive cooled down, I dont blame Jupiter at all.
I do blame the new owners though.

__________________

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Bow to the Power - Still BP4L
http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame
Learn about it kids.

mmcfadden

starting a program... not ever gone fuck people... hit me up....