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Old 11-04-2002, 06:02 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cogitator
In this country, over 90% of all violent crime is drug-related, whether directly or indirectly. The US has a serious drug problem. Even during the mid-70's when interdiction efforts slowed drug smuggling to a trickle for a couple years, people started to smoke rope, sniff glue, inject extract of banana peel, you name it. Whatever it is that drives Americans to lose themselves in drugs indirectly causes most of the violence here.
I'm going to open another can of worms here but I would argue that the violence related to drugs is because they are illegal. I don't use drugs, I don't even drink alcohol, as many a trade sgow buddy has busted on me for. But I'll be the first to admit that forcing people to be criminals to use druges leads to further criminal activity. Look what happened during prohibition. I'm not going to say I'm dead sure on this viewpoint as I don't have research (like I do on the gun issue) to go by, but I feel fairly confident.
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Old 11-04-2002, 07:37 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Wenchy
Here in Colorado, we have a "make my day" law... somebody comes into your house, you have the right to shoot and kill them, no questions asked. But you'd better hope the guy doesn't manage to get outside and bleed on your lawn or your sidewalk, or you're going to do some serious jail time.
Talk to me about rent/home prices/taxes/cost of living/weather...
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Old 11-04-2002, 07:52 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Evil Chris
I do understand that regular people might think they need to carry a firearm. Maybe this is what I think is wrong... the situation that brought people into thinking that they need to arm themselves. If you really think about it, it's pathetic.
Chris, whats really pathetic is that your whole frame of reference is you short life span. there has ALWAYS been a need to arm yourself except for that short period of time that has been your lifespan.
The unarmed people of this world have been killed for thousands of years. You're a fool if you'll be lulled into giving up the most potent weapon you've got to protect your family just because no one's been killed in your neck of the woods lately.

You think the 6 million jews killed in WWII wished that there wasn't a ban on gun ownership in germany?
oh, I'm sorry. that was outside of your frame of referance because it was before you were born.
ok, how about Sarajevo Yugoslavia? Do you remember the beautiful winter games in Yugoslavia? Millions of people traveled there. It was a modern, beautiful place in 1984.
Then the country was thrown into war.
how many unarmed civilians do you think died because they thought they were so civilized that they didn't need a gun for protection?

If you think we live in a world where personal protection by the use of firearms is unnecissary, I feel sorry for your children. Your shortsightedness puts them at risk.
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:03 PM   #54
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I lived in Arizona for about 18 years where it's still legal to "pack a sidearm". You can wear a gun anyplace but a bank, school and government building...

Now, I'm not a gun advocate, but it sure seemed to cut down on the crime rate...at least in Tucson, where I lived. Ya think twice about mugging someone when they may be packin'
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:04 PM   #55
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Nuclear weapons don't kill people. People kill people.
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:05 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by LBBV
I lived in Arizona for about 18 years where it's still legal to "pack a sidearm". You can wear a gun anyplace but a bank, school and government building...

Now, I'm not a gun advocate, but it sure seemed to cut down on the crime rate...at least in Tucson, where I lived. Ya think twice about mugging someone when they may be packin'

yep works everytime
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:06 PM   #57
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Guns are for pussies who don't want to risk getting a bloody nose.
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:31 PM   #58
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Chris-

I can certainly understand where you are coming from, the frustration with gun violence in the US by criminals.

On the other hand, as my nic says, I am a very avid hunter. I am sponsored by Cabelas outdors and can be seen frequently on their saturday morning show. I own more than fifty hunting guns, mostly rifles and shotguns...each one has a specific purpose to hunt what I want to hunt. They range in size from a .50 Nitro Mag to a lowly .22.

I hunt approximately two-three months of the year, and love every minute of it. I also am frequently hired to hunt big cats, as that is my specialty. Usually the cats have killed someone or are predating on a cattle ranch. Usally in South America, although this year my partner and I got two snow leopards in Kazikstan that had killed a number of people. One of the leopards also killed two of my dogs. Son of a bitch.

I really haven't eaten any "store bought" meat in years, I grew in a rural area and we always hunted every chance we got.

What burns my as is when people advocate that I can't live the lifestyle I grew up with. It's legal and I am an ethical hunter. However, every year legislation is introduced that seeks to remove those hunting rights I have. Yep, the guns I have are designed to kill. I kill lots of things and it's just fine with me...I don't really care if people accept what I do or not. It is my right.

I was a sniper in a four man unit after da Nam when we ran alot of shodow ops and I also shot at people successfully. That did, by the way, bother me.

I guess it must be hard for people who grew up in urban areas to appreciate the fabric of life country people have. On the opening day of deer season, they closed the schools in my hometown, and they still do. Everyone is sitting in tree's with guns.

Is it right? I don't care to debate the rightness or wrongness of it because I have the right to do it. 'nuff said
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:08 AM   #59
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Ok, that whole gun thing reminds me of what happend when i was a kid

My parents own a company which is fenced in, barbwire etc etc. They had a burglar. They also had 3 guard dogs the burglar didn't know about. 2 shephards and one doberman. The dogs were trained to let the burglar in but not out. And thats what happend.

The guy went in, but the dogs wouldn't let him out. When he relized that he was stuck he shot one of the dogs. Thats when the other 2 attacked him.

They hovered over him from 2 am to 7 am when the first people arrived at the factory. The police report said that the person had bite marks on his arms and legs he also wettend his pants. Duh!

The one shephard dog was dead and his gun he fired layed about 5 feet away from him, but he was unable to reach it and shoot the other dogs.

The burglar ended up going to court and suing my parents for his pain and suffering AND WON. My dad appealed and it dragged out, but at the end my parents company had to pay 25000 Deutsche Mark for his pain and suffering and they got a deduction in a cross suite for 1200 marks for the dog.

I know its a bit off beat ,,, but that threat just reminded me of the story, and since I am bored and its 2 am here and nobody is on fucking icq, i figure i share it with you (and hey there was a gun in the story)

Cheers
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:09 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by LBBV
Ya think twice about mugging someone when they may be packin'
LOL....
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:13 AM   #61
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when I was in high school ,1985, they closed the schools for opening day of deer season - they dont do this here anymore.


I curious thou just what game you hunt with a .50 cal Nitro Mag?
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:17 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by steffie
Ok, that whole gun thing reminds me of what happend when i was a kid

My parents own a company which is fenced in, barbwire etc etc. They had a burglar. They also had 3 guard dogs the burglar didn't know about. 2 shephards and one doberman. The dogs were trained to let the burglar in but not out. And thats what happend.

The guy went in, but the dogs wouldn't let him out. When he relized that he was stuck he shot one of the dogs. Thats when the other 2 attacked him.

They hovered over him from 2 am to 7 am when the first people arrived at the factory. The police report said that the person had bite marks on his arms and legs he also wettend his pants. Duh!

The one shephard dog was dead and his gun he fired layed about 5 feet away from him, but he was unable to reach it and shoot the other dogs.





The burglar ended up going to court and suing my parents for his pain and suffering AND WON. My dad appealed and it dragged out, but at the end my parents company had to pay 25000 Deutsche Mark for his pain and suffering and they got a deduction in a cross suite for 1200 marks for the dog.

I know its a bit off beat ,,, but that threat just reminded me of the story, and since I am bored and its 2 am here and nobody is on fucking icq, i figure i share it with you (and hey there was a gun in the story)

Cheers

what you do is when you show up in the morning and find that fucker shoot him dead then he cant sue
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:19 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by steffie
Ok, that whole gun thing reminds me of what happend when i was a kid

My parents own a company which is fenced in, barbwire etc etc. They had a burglar. They also had 3 guard dogs the burglar didn't know about. 2 shephards and one doberman. The dogs were trained to let the burglar in but not out. And thats what happend.

The guy went in, but the dogs wouldn't let him out. When he relized that he was stuck he shot one of the dogs. Thats when the other 2 attacked him.

They hovered over him from 2 am to 7 am when the first people arrived at the factory. The police report said that the person had bite marks on his arms and legs he also wettend his pants. Duh!

The one shephard dog was dead and his gun he fired layed about 5 feet away from him, but he was unable to reach it and shoot the other dogs.

The burglar ended up going to court and suing my parents for his pain and suffering AND WON. My dad appealed and it dragged out, but at the end my parents company had to pay 25000 Deutsche Mark for his pain and suffering and they got a deduction in a cross suite for 1200 marks for the dog.

I know its a bit off beat ,,, but that threat just reminded me of the story, and since I am bored and its 2 am here and nobody is on fucking icq, i figure i share it with you (and hey there was a gun in the story)

Cheers
Damn, I thought shit like that only happened in the States. I don't feel so bad about our stupid law suits now!

Cases like that are why you shoot to kill. Sounds terrible, but what else are you gonna do?
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:29 AM   #64
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when i took my test it was pathetic.. like someone said an 1 hour video and multiple questions test, and when i asked for help the teacher just told me the answer to write. scared me how easy it was. now to be able to own a gun i had to fill out alot of papers, but still pretty easy to get.
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:37 AM   #65
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what you do is when you show up in the morning and find that fucker shoot him dead then he cant sue

or better yet, shoot him dead, then dump his body into a barrel full of lye and water and them bury the barrel in the ground and build a house on top of it....
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:40 AM   #66
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I curious thou just what game you hunt with a .50 cal Nitro Mag?
hey, the deer nowadays are working out, pumping themselves up with steroids and getting all buffed out...no more couch potato deer wasting life on a sofa with a beer in one hand and television remote in the other...now they mean fucking business....and don't get me started on them thug deer...running around tossing up game signs, talking about "popping a cap in some two-legged ass" they are some tough motherfuckers...when the sun goes down, no "two-legs" better be around...

tougher times call for tougher measures.......
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:43 AM   #67
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Check this out for graphic, real-life gun violence

http://www.aarrgghh.com/no_way/bDwyer.htm
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:16 AM   #68
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Just read the Donahue interview of Michael Moore who made teh movie Bowling For Columbine which I heard about in this thread.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/827637.asp?cp1=1

Really really interesthing debate about some of the reasons why the USA have some many homicides... (poverty ect...)
It's just unbelivable... Look at the numbers...

Gun deaths in a year.
Germany, 381
France, 255
Canada, 165
United Kingdom, 68
Australia, 65
Japan, 39

The United States of America, 11,127 !

Have a look at the interview or movie, I think it's an issue that affect everyone. I surely won't miss it.

Jon
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:39 AM   #69
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Originally posted by spaceman73
Just read the Donahue interview of Michael Moore who made teh movie Bowling For Columbine which I heard about in this thread.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/827637.asp?cp1=1

Really really interesthing debate about some of the reasons why the USA have some many homicides... (poverty ect...)
It's just unbelivable... Look at the numbers...

Gun deaths in a year.
Germany, 381
France, 255
Canada, 165
United Kingdom, 68
Australia, 65
Japan, 39

The United States of America, 11,127 !

Have a look at the interview or movie, I think it's an issue that affect everyone. I surely won't miss it.

Jon
Yes but the point you are missing is that they still have as many homicides per capita if not more in some countries. You can be killed without a gun easy enough. ESPECIALLY if you don't have a firearm to protect yourself with.

Sometimes the police are not available and what if your wife was home alone while a rapist is breaking in the front door with a knife in his hand. Would you want your wife to sit their cornered in her bedroom with a pair of scisors or a nice safe snub nose revolver?

Pretty much a no brainer.

Peace!
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:42 AM   #70
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I'm Fixin to go squirrel hunting right now
wish me luck
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:51 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evil Chris
He's from the "Texas Concealed Handgun Instructor Association".

For fuck sakes... To think that an association like that even exists is scary.
My dad is a member of that association!
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:01 AM   #72
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Yes but the point you are missing is that they still have as many homicides per capita if not more in some countries. You can be killed without a gun easy enough. ESPECIALLY if you don't have a firearm to protect yourself with.

Sometimes the police are not available and what if your wife was home alone while a rapist is breaking in the front door with a knife in his hand. Would you want your wife to sit their cornered in her bedroom with a pair of scisors or a nice safe snub nose revolver?

Pretty much a no brainer.

Peace!
BV
The problem as I see it is that many people who have no business buying guns for home protection do so anyway. If you are not 100% sure that, faced with a life or death situation, that you could and would pull the trigger, you have no fucking business owning a gun.

Depending on which way the wife in the above scenario feels, it could go one of two ways:

1) She sits in the bedroom with the gun, the guy comes through the door and threatens her with the knife, and she raises the gun and blows him away with a nice clean shot to center mass.

2) She sits in the bedroom with the gun, the guy comes through the door and threatens her with the knife, and she waffles around about shooting him, stalling, etc, until he takes the fucking gun away and either rapes her and then shoots her with it, or rapes her and steals the gun.

My father is a gun smith, and I was raised around guns. I learned to shoot when I was six years old. I went hunting every year. I can field-dress squirrels and deer. And I know the damage that a bullet does to flesh -- I know damn well what will happen if I have to pull the trigger on a living being, and I know that if it comes down to it, life or death, my life or the life of someone I love, I will do it.

People who have no idea what they would do in a situation where they have a firearm in their hands and the choice of whether or not to shoot have ni fucking business owning one in the first place.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:08 AM   #73
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The problem as I see it is that many people who have no business buying guns for home protection do so anyway. If you are not 100% sure that, faced with a life or death situation, that you could and would pull the trigger, you have no fucking business owning a gun.

Depending on which way the wife in the above scenario feels, it could go one of two ways:

1) She sits in the bedroom with the gun, the guy comes through the door and threatens her with the knife, and she raises the gun and blows him away with a nice clean shot to center mass.

2) She sits in the bedroom with the gun, the guy comes through the door and threatens her with the knife, and she waffles around about shooting him, stalling, etc, until he takes the fucking gun away and either rapes her and then shoots her with it, or rapes her and steals the gun.

My father is a gun smith, and I was raised around guns. I learned to shoot when I was six years old. I went hunting every year. I can field-dress squirrels and deer. And I know the damage that a bullet does to flesh -- I know damn well what will happen if I have to pull the trigger on a living being, and I know that if it comes down to it, life or death, my life or the life of someone I love, I will do it.

People who have no idea what they would do in a situation where they have a firearm in their hands and the choice of whether or not to shoot have ni fucking business owning one in the first place.

I have no problem shooting someone that is in my home. I will make damn sure thou that I see his/her face before firing. hell maybe my daughter snuck out of the house to meet her boyfriend, and I shoot her snicking back in (has happened)

My wife on the otherhand would be scared stiff - she would just freeze, I would think - she might would suprise me
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:24 AM   #74
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BV,
I get what you mean also. But I think the problem is that with a gun, chances are things will get ugly much faster.

I mean I don't see any need to have a gun. No-one will come and break in. And if they do, I could defend myself without a gun.
I don't think having a gun would protect me any better.

I think it would just make any situation more dangerous.
And who am I to make justice for myself. If everyone can do that, then were are we going?

I use to work in a convenience store when I was 17, and was doing the night shift. And I got Arm Robbed. And I dealt with him like it was any other customer. You want the cash, fine take it. And have a good night. But please don't come again...

And I didn't felt threaten at all, and was back to work the day after. Don't get me wrong, it's not a pleasant situation, but reacting viloently would have only made it worst I think.

I woudl actually feel lots less safe in a city where I know that everyone have a firearms than in a city were it's banned.

If you feel the need to have a gun to defend yourself, well I think it's because there's a political and social situation which created the fear of being agressed or attacked. And that it's this situation that should be adress. The solution lay there more than in everyone getting a firearm.

It's just my opinion and I respect yours... I mean obviously there might be jobs and situation where it's required. But for normal civilian it shouldn't be that way. Unfortunately it might be in certain places.

Jon
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:48 AM   #75
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I mean I don't see any need to have a gun. No-one will come and break in. And if they do, I could defend myself without a gun.
I don't think having a gun would protect me any better.
Well I feel the same way if it was a one on one situation and evenly matched.

Unfortunately life is not always fair and it's natures way for the dominant to pick on the weak. We can't change this. Guns have a way of evening out the playing field.

I don't think you could defend yourself to well against 3 guys with knives and clubs breaking into your house. Unless of course you had something to equal out the playing field.

I agree there are idiots with guns that shouldn't have them, but as long as there are more non-idiots with guns I think we will all be ok. The bad doesent outway the good.

I'm more worried about getting killed in a car accident. There are plenty of idiots driving around lethal weapons and I am sure that the statistics prove that easy enough.

Make no mistake about it, we are here because of guns, without guns we are shit.

Peace!
BV
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:10 AM   #76
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Quote:
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If you feel the need to have a gun to defend yourself, well I think it's because there's a political and social situation which created the fear of being agressed or attacked. And that it's this situation that should be adress. The solution lay there more than in everyone getting a firearm.

It's just my opinion and I respect yours... I mean obviously there might be jobs and situation where it's required. But for normal civilian it shouldn't be that way. Unfortunately it might be in certain places.
Jon
Bingo. This is what I'm talking about. Great post Jon.
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:32 PM   #77
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Talk to me about rent/home prices/taxes/cost of living/weather...
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China... or my original statement about our "make my day" law, as far as that goes?
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:19 PM   #78
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I have no problem with self preservation and self defense, but what does bother me is the social acceptance of firearms, and the assimilated need to own guns.
Guns breed violence, which leads to the necessity of owning a gun in the first place. How many times do I have to say that?

Yes you all own guns. All sorts of big guns. Good for you... You think you need them to protect yourself. If that's the case, why not instead take a good look at the surroundings you choose to be in? Or maybe you enjoy living in a place where you must own a gun to protect your family, property, and yourself.
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:40 PM   #79
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someone that compares a gun with firestone tires is definitly on crack.
Sometimes analogies are the best way to show you how ridiculous something is that is founded by the irrational emotions of uneducated hot-heads.
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:44 PM   #80
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Originally posted by Evil Chris
I have no problem with self preservation and self defense, but what does bother me is the social acceptance of firearms, and the assimilated need to own guns.
Guns breed violence, which leads to the necessity of owning a gun in the first place. How many times do I have to say that?
repeating something that isn't true over and over doesn't eventually make it true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Evil Chris
Yes you all own guns. All sorts of big guns. Good for you... You think you need them to protect yourself. If that's the case, why not instead take a good look at the surroundings you choose to be in? Or maybe you enjoy living in a place where you must own a gun to protect your family, property, and yourself.
I live on this planet. there is no where else to go.
I find it interesting that you had no response for my earlier post
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:52 PM   #81
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Chris, whats really pathetic is that your whole frame of reference is you short life span. there has ALWAYS been a need to arm yourself except for that short period of time that has been your lifespan.
The unarmed people of this world have been killed for thousands of years. You're a fool if you'll be lulled into giving up the most potent weapon you've got to protect your family just because no one's been killed in your neck of the woods lately.

You think the 6 million jews killed in WWII wished that there wasn't a ban on gun ownership in germany?
oh, I'm sorry. that was outside of your frame of referance because it was before you were born.
ok, how about Sarajevo Yugoslavia? Do you remember the beautiful winter games in Yugoslavia? Millions of people traveled there. It was a modern, beautiful place in 1984.
Then the country was thrown into war.
how many unarmed civilians do you think died because they thought they were so civilized that they didn't need a gun for protection?

If you think we live in a world where personal protection by the use of firearms is unnecissary, I feel sorry for your children. Your shortsightedness puts them at risk.

looooool

so many things completely wrong w/ this i cant even begin

16,000 ppl are killed in the US each year, 12,000 gun deaths. over 50x higher than the next country on the list. must b because we have a quarter billion guns, WERE NOT ARMED WELL ENOUGH WE NEED MORE TO STOP ALL THIS SENSELESS KILLING!!!!!!

the problem isnt guns, jews and ethnic albanians didnt die because they werent well armed enough. palestinians have high powered assault rifles and check out the comparative death toll in israel.

problem is the US is out of control, partially due to the mentalities of gun nuts. u have a 1 in 700 chance of dying when u get in a car, i dont see people saying we need more cars 2 protect ourselves, or bigger cars full of packing peanuts



gun argument has an always will be stupid, mayb if we had less than 1 gun per citizen in this country
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:52 PM   #82
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12Clicks... you're not even reading my posts based on the replies you're giving.
You are obviously a card-carrying NRA member or at least you want to be. I'm fine with that. The NRA and their rights to bear arms has significant sway in the US. Pseudo control of municipal, state, and even federal authorites. Maybe Charleton Heston is the real president of the US... who knows.

I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, all you have to do to see where I stand is to scroll up a bit.
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Old 11-05-2002, 01:54 PM   #83
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BV,
If you feel the need to have a gun to defend yourself, well I think it's because there's a political and social situation which created the fear of being agressed or attacked. And that it's this situation that should be adress. The solution lay there more than in everyone getting a firearm.
You're damn right there's a social situation which creates the fear of being agressed or attacked -- and unfortunately, it's because I have XX chromosomes instead of XY. There are always going to be sick fuckers out there who think the presence of a hahahaha upon my body gives them license to want, take, have -- against my will or not.

It's different for women, in a way that men can't understand -- every time I walk out of my house, I am leaving myself vulnerable to the possibility that I will be raped, murdered, whatever. That doesn't mean that I'm a militant, that I think that all men are rapist scum...but unfortunately, there ARE men who rape and kill. You hear about it all the time -- open up any paper, turn on any news channel.

You can't even feel safe in your own home. I've been the victim of sexual violence, and it was in my childhood home.

Knowing what I know, having seen what I have seen...I would rather have a gun and NOT need it. I would rather have the means to protect myself and my family rather than wish later on that I had been able to defend myself. I'm not going to lie and say that I could defend myself empty-handed -- I'm strong, I lift weights and work out, but I am never going to have the muscle mass of a man, and I'm never going to have the skills to defend myself against someone who tops my height by a foot or more. I might be able to cause some damage -- he'd have to get skin grafts to repair the gouges in his cheeks, and the police could just look for a guy walking hunched over because I tried to rip his balls off -- but I like the way a gun, and my determination to use it properly, evens up the odds.

[/rant]
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Old 11-05-2002, 02:47 PM   #84
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12Clicks... you're not even reading my posts based on the replies you're giving.
You are obviously a card-carrying NRA member or at least you want to be. I'm fine with that. The NRA and their rights to bear arms has significant sway in the US. Pseudo control of municipal, state, and even federal authorites. Maybe Charleton Heston is the real president of the US... who knows.

I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, all you have to do to see where I stand is to scroll up a bit.
Chris, you position is very clear. it just happends to have no basis in truth.
its ok to fear things irrationally. Most people do.
For me its scorpions.
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Old 11-05-2002, 02:48 PM   #85
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looooool

so many things completely wrong w/ this i cant even begin

And then you went on to prove none of it wrong. ahahahahahahah
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Old 11-05-2002, 02:55 PM   #86
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16,000 ppl are killed in the US each year, 12,000 gun deaths. over 50x higher than the next country on the list. must b because we have a quarter billion guns, WERE NOT ARMED WELL ENOUGH WE NEED MORE TO STOP ALL THIS SENSELESS KILLING!!!!!!

Excuse me. Before you continue spouting sheer ignorance, why don't you go back a page or two and check out the links I posted. Educate yourself. See what caused 66% of those gun deaths.
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Old 11-05-2002, 03:21 PM   #87
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I curious thou just what game you hunt with a .50 cal Nitro Mag?
I have been working, so I didn't get back quick to you. Well, when you hunt dangerous game that is large you would use a .50 Cal Nitro Mag...Kodiak Bear, Cape Buffalo are the two that I used with it. Really any animal that has a large amount of mass.

Most bullets have a very rapid expansion factor on impact and don't work on animals that have a lot of thick mass. Cape Buffalo kill more people in Africa than any other species. They are very aggressive.

Most of the large bore rifles are either bolt action or double barrelled to avoid jamming in a tight situation and utilize large rounded full metal jacket bullets. It is about like shooting a small canon. Not a pleasant gun to sight-in, to say the least.

You could also use it to hunt elephants or rhinos, I do not hunt those particular species for personal reasons.

Hope that answers you question
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Old 11-05-2002, 04:08 PM   #88
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I'm going to open another can of worms here but I would argue that the violence related to drugs is because they are illegal. I don't use drugs, I don't even drink alcohol, as many a trade sgow buddy has busted on me for. But I'll be the first to admit that forcing people to be criminals to use druges leads to further criminal activity. Look what happened during prohibition. I'm not going to say I'm dead sure on this viewpoint as I don't have research (like I do on the gun issue) to go by, but I feel fairly confident.
I would have to agree with you. As soon as prohibition ended, the mob had to turn to gambling and prostitutes to make a living
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Old 11-05-2002, 04:18 PM   #89
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Excuse me. Before you continue spouting sheer ignorance, why don't you go back a page or two and check out the links I posted. Educate yourself. See what caused 66% of those gun deaths.
56.5, 66, whats the difference. maybe u need a little class in reading comprehension, I said GUN DEATHS. not murders. does it matter how they die, we r discussing the enabling factor in those deaths; guns.

so ur saying that its actually widespread depression that is our countrys problem and not the # of guns available to people. Hungary has the highest suicide rate per capita, Japan has 2x the teen suicides we do. want 2 look at their #s of gun deaths comparitively?

even if it were 66 and we had only 4,000 gun MURDERS that'd be 10-15x the next country on the list. but hey it must not be a problem becuz im ignorant and u have extreme attention to detail.

and yes, i excuse your ignorance.

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Old 11-05-2002, 04:38 PM   #90
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The United States has always been a violent nation. For fuck's aske, we had to shoot a shitload of British people to start this country (nevermind the Indians we wiped out with venerial disease). We've always had to fight for everything....

Fuck, our national anthem glorifies war. Everyone else sings about how beautiful their piece of dirt is while we brag about blowing shit up.

While I agree gun owners should be properly trained and licensed, look at how many people have dirver's licenses yet are a danger on the roads. I feel much safer with my kid being around a gun than the Spaghetti Bowl (the fucked up mess that is I-15 metts US95 here in Vegas) at rush hour.

Guns aren't the only answer to assuring a safe home, but they can be a valuable addition. As far as where we "choose" to live, there have been home invasions here in GOOD neighborhoods. Home Invasion robberies are on the rise and believe me, some of this shit would stop if one of these motherfuckers rushed a door to find a loaded gun pointed at their fucking face. (sorry, I'm a little touchy, as there was a home invasion next door to a friend's place...and believe me, his stance on guns changed after his neighbor was shook up like that). There are certain realities we have to face, one being that we live in a more violent society.

The reason there are more gun deaths in The United States is because there are more guns. If a criminal wants to rob a store, a gun isn't that hard to get (and if Wal-Mart stops selling guns, then you can sure as fuck bank on Paco the gundealer down the street having an ample supply). No one WANTS to shoot a fucking intruder or take a human life, but when it's your life vs. their life...fuck them...they lose that right to life when they enter someone else's home with intent to take something.

An interesting thing Micheal Moore and another who's name escapes me, said on Oprah (my wife watches that fucking show, god I hate Oprah) that violence is also reported on the news more. So, the wacko motherfuck that shoots up his school gets 2 months worth of coverage, but the average gun owner who goes about his daily life without incident, is obviously not news.

My daughter was student of the month at her school for October and no news but some kid getting expelled for taking a knife to school gets on the evening news. So, stop watching the news so damn much.

Actually, I like the fact other countries see us as a bunch of gun toting rednecks who shoot first and ask questions later....remember, the only aggression against us was a couple taliban boogeymen ramming planes into buildings, because no one would dare just invade us....


See, 12clicks, I'm not a total peacenik? ;)


While some people only recently "discovered" their patriotism in the Fall months of 2001, I've always been proud to live in a country of such freedoms. Even with the shrinking civil liberties we're faced with, it still beats anywhere else....

This discussion has had me thinking and tomorrow my wife gets signed up for a gun course.....
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Old 11-05-2002, 05:21 PM   #91
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I often teach the NRA gun safety course and it is an excellent introduction into how to properly handle, clean and maintain your guns.

When I was a kid, the first year I got to go hunting, I was allowed to carry a shotgun, but it was not loaded. Everytime I inadvertadly pointed at someone, I was made aware of it vociferously. It was a great learning experience.

In the gun safety course, we teach people to never use a gun in self defense until you run out of options. Talking your way out, running to a neighbors house...anything but use a gun. In the event those options are unavailable and you do pull your gun, you had better be prepared to use it. The statistics show that many criminals shoot their victims with their own guns.

I also teach one of the NRA pistol shooting courses, and if you own a gun, constant practice will inprove your safety factor immensely. Far too many people buy a gun, load it, and tuck it under the bed. If they are ever forced to use it, they generally lack the skill and experience to use it properly. There are shooting leagues, indoor shooting ranges that you can go to for a nomimal fee and learn your own capabilities along with the guns capabilites and become proficient in their use.

I also get a kick when someone shoots a .44 Mag for the first time, it's not like the Dirty Harry movies. The noise and recoil, even with proper ear protection scares the shit out of a guy the first time they use it.

If you choose to own a gun, learn how to use it from someone that is very experienced. You can also go to any shooting range, and they will have all the NRA gun courses posted. Sign up for one and learn how to use a gun the right way. Training and education greatly reduce gun related accidents. Believe me, nothing is scarier than popping a cap on a pistol and you know it's loaded, and nothing happens. A "hung fired" bullet has certain procedures that you should follow. Most people haven't the slightest idea what to do, they usually rush to get the bullet out. POW
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:11 PM   #92
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letshunt.... What would you say is the % of gun owners in the US who haven't got a clue how the firearm works, and barely know how to load, clean, and fire it? My guess would be a high number.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:21 PM   #93
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letshunt.... What would you say is the % of gun owners in the US who haven't got a clue how the firearm works, and barely know how to load, clean, and fire it? My guess would be a high number.
but then, this whole thread is about your*guesses*
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:31 PM   #94
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I often teach the NRA gun safety course and it is an excellent introduction into how to properly handle, clean and maintain your guns.

When I was a kid, the first year I got to go hunting, I was allowed to carry a shotgun, but it was not loaded. Everytime I inadvertadly pointed at someone, I was made aware of it vociferously. It was a great learning experience.

In the gun safety course, we teach people to never use a gun in self defense until you run out of options. Talking your way out, running to a neighbors house...anything but use a gun. In the event those options are unavailable and you do pull your gun, you had better be prepared to use it. The statistics show that many criminals shoot their victims with their own guns.

I also teach one of the NRA pistol shooting courses, and if you own a gun, constant practice will inprove your safety factor immensely. Far too many people buy a gun, load it, and tuck it under the bed. If they are ever forced to use it, they generally lack the skill and experience to use it properly. There are shooting leagues, indoor shooting ranges that you can go to for a nomimal fee and learn your own capabilities along with the guns capabilites and become proficient in their use.

I also get a kick when someone shoots a .44 Mag for the first time, it's not like the Dirty Harry movies. The noise and recoil, even with proper ear protection scares the shit out of a guy the first time they use it.

If you choose to own a gun, learn how to use it from someone that is very experienced. You can also go to any shooting range, and they will have all the NRA gun courses posted. Sign up for one and learn how to use a gun the right way. Training and education greatly reduce gun related accidents. Believe me, nothing is scarier than popping a cap on a pistol and you know it's loaded, and nothing happens. A "hung fired" bullet has certain procedures that you should follow. Most people haven't the slightest idea what to do, they usually rush to get the bullet out. POW

hahaha I have a friend of mine that has a little scare right between the eyes from shooting a .44

one day at the range one of his buddies asked if he wanted to shot "a real gun". So he picked it up and fired it one handed, tryin to be billy bad ass,before anyone could stop him.
needless to say he had one hellva headache and a big cut afterwards hahah - I thought it was funny as hell because he's a little on the cocky side

I dont think he's been back to range since
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:33 PM   #95
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Guns are for pussies who don't want to risk getting a bloody nose.
Or a ice pick to the throat or groin?

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Old 11-05-2002, 08:37 PM   #96
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but then, this whole thread is about your*guesses*
Stay on topic. I see you have a problem doing that.
Bring something useful to a thread for a change. You have something to say.... back it up.
Most of what I'm posting in here is how I feel, or my view on the subject matter. If you don't like it too bad. If you think it's wrong, then tell us why.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:52 PM   #97
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Some people on this thread seem to not fully comprehand the their 2nd Amendmant rights and those that fought to give that right by the Constitution.

Guns dont kill its the idiots behind the gun that kill.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:29 PM   #98
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12clicks-

My experience with teaching NRA courses has been, at times, frustrating. About half, and yes that is a guess, are testosterone poisoned wannabees who come to class dressed in military fatigues and talk about forming militia's and the like.

I try to be supportive, but generally they are non military guys trying to enlarge their penis. I generally ask if anyone of them has ever been in a firefight...no I ask them if they have ever seen anyone shot...no I ask them if they have ever been threatened to the point they thought they needed to use a guy...no. I tell them I have, and still have bad dreams about it, there is nothing romantic about war and war operations. Usually it is a penis thing, a sort of statement about their machismo. These are the guys that need to learn the most discipline with weapons...I don't suppose we could administer an IQ test to own a gun, but my guess this group would score low. On the other hand, they are usually pretty harmless, they by a whole bunch of guns and show them to everyone that comes to their house and that is about it. They seem to want to be in the genre' as opposed to competing in leagues, or practice shooting...you usually just see them hanging around the range, very rarely, however, do you seem them actually practicing...I suppose the targets are pretty safe with these guys...saves them alot of money. hehehe

The other half are usually fathers with their sons, and are earnest in learning the material. They are usually legitimate hunters who want to spend time in the field and learn proper technique. Like how to climb over a fence with a gun...or things as basic as how to operate the weapon. I get a great deal of satisfaction from help these individuals.

If they are going to buy a handgun, I almost always recommend they start with a revovler. A Colt Python is probably a great choice, it's well made, shoots .38 or.357 and won't let you down. It is also far safer than an auto loader, your average novice isn't ready for a Glock or Baretta...to many things go wrong. Like how to clear the bolt...there a bullet in there, you know.

I also recommend, if they are going to use the gun for self defense, that they purchase safety slugs instead of hot rounds. Safety slugs won't penetrate walls, but they will do a tremendous amount of damage to an individual. Many shooting accidents occur when individuals start shoot their 9mm and don't realize it will blow through the wall and kill anything on the other side.

If I could convince everyone in the world to treat every gun like it is always loaded, to practice and learn your limitations and the guns limitations....alot of lives would be saved.

Finally, there are some excellent pistol safes that can be easily and quickly opened to keep your gun in...I keep such a safe under my bed. An unprotected loaded gun is an accident waiting to happen and they do...through sheer irresponsibility. It's a fact.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:43 PM   #99
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Redshift-

In Illinois we have a pistol deer season, and I have always used a Ruger Super Redhawk .44. It pushes about 800 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and is good for about a fifty yard shot.

Well, I got to reading about .50 Desert Eagle the Israelis use and that, when scoped, you have about a hundred yard range. It pushes a whooping 1500 ft/lbs at the muzzle. I had to have one.

So the first time I shot it, was one night after a days hunt and it was getting dark. We were around the campfire, and had just eaten. So, I thought I would take a few test shots and familiarize myself with it's characteristics.

It has a two stage trigger, I had read up on all it's features, except shooting it. My first shot changed my life, as God is my witness I thought the fucking thing blew up. My fellow hunters reported the muzzle blast was visable for a good ten feet and I was checking my fingers to make sure I still had them all.

We laughed out asses off, my goodness what a powerful gun. I handle pretty well now...but that first shot scared the shit out of me...and I have shot an awful lot of guns.
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The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -George Patton
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:54 PM   #100
letshunt
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 196
Evil Chris-

Most people don't know how to handle a gun. I have a group of three guys that I hunt with...we have tried to add other people to the group but usually tell them to go home after a few hunts. They just don't have the field experience or gun knowledge to hunt.

Incidentally, all three of the guys I hunt went all are ex special forces guys...different tactical units. The fact is, I have to trust them with my life and they have proved for more than ten years I can.

Incidently, one of the recruits was so bad he became convinced one of my bird dogs was a coyote...its' a German Shorthair Pointer...and began blasting away at it. The dog only took a few pellets. The hunter took the butt of my gun to his forehead.

To answer your question, most guys that grew up in rural area's are great with guns, most city guys haven't got a clue. I don't know what the percentage would be of people that are incapable of operating a gun...but it would be up there.
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The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -George Patton
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