That?s not an entirely fair assessment of this idea / concept. Here?s the point, first off they have an established traffic source for these sponsors, they have submitted galleries in place, freeones isn?t just a traffic source with hosted galleries, they have submitted galleries from webmasters that they have to contend with and a database of galleries that they can?t just delete from the system.

It?s a matter of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A number of sites, say even a year ago, didn?t have these pre-checked cross sales below the join button?however, with certain companies being bought out, new systems being put into place, you?re stuck with a quandary of how to handle the situation.

Let?s say you had a blog dedicated to Mr. Blue (I'm hot as hell), you have 300 handwritten posts, you have decent serps for Mr. Blue plus a number of long tail keywords, and you?re generating a fair amount of money from it. What do you do when that site gets bought (Dee make me an offer) and pre-checked cross sales below the join happens?

You really have three options:
1. Pull all the links because you have amazing morals
2. Ask the sponsor to give you the option to have no pre-checked x-sells
3. Put a warning on your site so the surfers know that when they go to buy, to uncheck those boxes.

Basically, 1 isn?t really an option. Pichunter chose the second option. Freeones chose the 3rd option (possibly the 2nd option as well on their fhgs but I?m not privy to that info)

There?s really no perfect solution, but at least some effort is being made. Also, informing the surfer that these issues may exist certainly couldn?t hurt.

Traffic to a website isn?t like driving a car with screaming kids in the backseat where you can turn around and yell, ?I?ll turn this car right around if you don?t stop!??it?s more out of control like a dingy going down a river with swift currents?the best you can do is try to guide your traffic and navigate the ebbs and flows.

If this were 1 crooked sponsor, I?d completely agree with you?but because of the size and scope of this problem one has to address the issue in a measured manner. So, I don't really think Freeones is hypocritical and I think your assessment is a little needlessly harsh.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see someone just say, all these sites are banned, fuck off. It's really not practical though when you're dealing with the sheer numbers involved.

Here my comments:

- We will change the icon colors a bit, so that the green color, which is associated in normal life as good, will be changed
- In the coming weeks all honest sponsors will get a Thumbs Up icon behind the links

The reason why we did not simply remove all links is because some sponsors with cross-sale do also have official sites listed. FreeOnes visitors often would like to visit the official site of a babe. By simple removing the link they will use a search engine to find it. The same thing happens with FHG's. People will try to find more galleries and won't get the information about cross-sales thru those pages. At Freeones they get all those information at least. A part of the sponsor programs offer "fair" cross sales. If you simply uncheck the boxes you don't get screwed etc. And don't forget, all those shitty programs don't get promo and banner spots anywhere on our site anymore!

Now I have done several test signups in the last 2 months. And I can tell you it's 1 fucking shady world with tens of different companies. Some cross-sales are even rebilling after cancellations. I have read complaints for people who had to get a new card because of this. And it seems like I have this problem on my card too. More news about that when I know it for 100% sure because I only like to write facts.

But I can tell you that this cross-sales business is at least a 100 million business on yearly basis if not bigger. Some people (thieves) are becoming very rich which this at the moment. Just by doing this they are screwing the whole market. If it continues like this without taking any action you should not be surprised that CC companies don't process for porn sites at all anymore soon. I know many people just think short term and are only in the porn bizz to try to make money fast. However FreeOnes is not and will do anything we can to stop this shit.

Solution: Stop ACTING like you care, and actually help correct the problem.

If you really think cross-sales are going to kill our business, then remove the 200ish programs that do double-hidden pre-checks. Just stop, it's that simple - fucking stop.

Don't put a marker up, don't act like you care, don't pretend to fool the sheep on GFY... Just stop pushing them, remove the links, 301 redirect them, and stop bullshitting people.

Great post, Maurice. I can certainly understand educating the surfer with such a massive traffic base.

"and stop bullshitting people"

better tell that to some other people in this business.....

You are the one posting here acting like you are doing something to help. Stop bullshitting the people here and actually help.

You try to spin this shit like, we are educating the surfer. Please, it's not education when you are still allowing them to be ripped off.

Are you putting warning labels on advertisers as well?

Niether do we!!! And today we are changing our prices to NO TRIALS EITHER!!!

EXACTLY!!! Just good, clean, honest porn! And at it for a long time! Why is everyone so desperate and gouging? Must be the non-exclusivity or the lacking of quality of the product.

Right on freeones! (not a sheep either) but i am pulling links off my site!

The problem with you, is the attitude of your writing. We just implemented this system and will make improvements to it like how we do with everything. Nothing is perefect and everything can be done better. However with your kind of writing you make people think that I'm an idiot and ripping off people. If you would said: " well good move, but not good enough, I would suggest you do this and that" then it would sounds totally different. Dont you think so?

I know this is GFY, but still... But after x comments like these I simply ignore the posts so what's you gain?

Oh and to let you know, we probably will move those links into a special shady on the page or whatsoever.




What do you mean?

You can ignore me if you like, the people reading my posts don't ignore me. So your choice if you want to add some fuel to the fire for me.

And no no, you aren't the idiot, you are playing people for idiots. By saying you are going to rate xsales, and saying you care in general, blah blah blah - says you are stepping up to do something about it.

When the truth is, you aren't doing anything. And I'm calling your card on it.


If you did something grand, I would say it - like pulling the sponsors doing it, then I would say, damn freeones is kick ass, great example, blah blah blah. Otherwise, it's total bullshit, 100% bullshit. You can put lipstick on a pig but the bitch is still a pig. Haha.

That a good idea. I'm sure there will be more like this. :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

The doc has a point.

Logic 101: Class 1

A surfer hits a join page, with a precheck or without, hidden xsales or above the button, he joins and gets an xsale.

Free site A, gets mad - and tells surfer A about the bad sites.

Now the logic: If surferA can't read about the xsales, above or below the button, prechecked or not, directly on the join form, clearly written on 99.9% of the join forms.

And yet, we expect them to read a tiny icon, in the mix of other icons, in the mix of tons of free porn. But yet, they can't read the billing page, that is charging them?

</logic101>

very Interesting addition..
nice work.

I have a feeling that not many sponsors are going to jump out and start making demands to one of the largest adult sites on the web.

I don't really see why this would create any controversy. Freeones has decided to show surfers which sites it believes are honest and which it believes are dishonest. That's a business decision that they have made for their own company.

My review sites already show "Checked" "PreChecked" or "None" on each review and WebmasterScore.com is already compiling this information which is available to affiliate webmasters via the sponsor search feature of the site or to review sites (including Freeones) via the Review Site Submitter as well.

If a company believes prechecked xsells are good business, none of this stops them from continuing to use them. The only people a decision like this hurts are the ones who are willing to admit they are really seeking to cheat consumers by hiding additional costs from them... or to cheat affiliates by hiding revenue from them.

As long as everyone is informed, each can easily make their own decisions. :2 cents:

Google does this too somewhat if I remember, warning about a potential site using an interstitial type page?

:thumbsup

The blood is not in the surfer brain when he signs up for a site -- it is usually in his cock (the reason he wants to join in the first place). An impulse purchase where lack of attention and a fixation of seeing the content very quickly can be exploited by hidden xsells.

Will a surfer without the full compliment of blood in his brain notice a tiny icon warning him that the porn he is about to view may bad for his wallet work....?

No, they do it to sites that are Dangerous, that can harm your computer. Prechecks or xsales in general, are not dangerous, they do not harm your computer, and they do not mass piss people off.

If they don't mass piss people off then why are most of the programs built on cross sales using all kinds of merchants?

I get your point though, it is just that we want to do it differently and it is not as easy as 1 2 3

Just because you have cross sales, two pre-checked, does not mean you are rolling merchant accounts. Xsales have been around for about 8 years now, they are legal and allowed by VISA.

What you are referring to is pre-checks under the submit button or hidden terms of the xsale membership. Both of which Epoch and CCBill programs can not do. And just because they don't use Epoch and CCBill doesn't mean they are doing xsales at all and/or doing hidden ones.

Example: DukeDollars uses Netbilling with no xsales.

See it would be different if you only flagged only dirty xsale programs (hidden/under the button) then it would be like Google. However, even Google will de-list sites that don't clean up.

Which is what you should be doing. If the surfer can't read the join page, that has dirty xsales - then they aren't going to see or use your little notice. So the only real way to stop the surfer from being screwed over is to stop pushing programs with dirty xsales and/or get the lower paying option without the xsale.

great more warnings about adult business. lets just tell them to never buy porn again instead of let them think in their heads. they don't understand this game, or cross sales or anything else, all you're doing is scaring them and fucking with your ratios.

I don't say every program not using ccbill/epoch is a cheat, I think you perfectly understand what I am trying to say but like I said we seem to have a different view on things.

We don't say the idea is perfect, it is a start of what we see is a step to clean up (at least a bit) the mess.

I understand.. but let me help. If YOU want to make more money, remove the 200 programs doing shady cross sales. Then tell your surfers that they won't find sponsors with hidden billing practices on your site.

Now that, is helping the people out, helping the webmaster, and helping yourself.

Everything else is an image - trying to play nice but still worried about your bottom line over actually helping the surfer.

At the end of the day, you are still promoting programs known to be scamming the surfer and those same programs screw you over at the same time.

Why not just pull the dirty sponsors? I did, it took one afternoon and I have as many Sponsors to go through as you do.

The reason for not doing so is stated already.

Special link codes are an option though!

In the case of FreeOnes, that would be a seriously stupid thing for an affiliate program to do.

Money. We are all in this to make money. Freeones doesn't want to lose a LOT of money, that's why they aren't gonna pull the "shady programs. And that's why there will be a love fest in Amsterdam with the sites in question. I have no problem with that. You're right though about the hypocrisy of GFY. Lot of people acting morally righteous. Bottom line is I work my ass off to take care of me and my family. We all do. But I'm with you Doc...other businesses (car dealerships, retail stores, etc.) don't go out of their way to reveal how much money they make and the hidden and misleading charges they throw at you. Yet...the majority opinion on GFY seems to be that we in adult should. I respectfully disagree with doing that.

And if I were a tube or torrent site owner I would be laughing my ass off at this whole controversy. While they are busy ripping everybodies members areas and giving them away for free while cashing their pre-paid dating site checks...We are here attacking one another and trying to further reduce profit margin. All over something that has been in place for at least 8 years. But now suddenly it's an issue. :(

Yes it would. But flip that around for a minute...what if every program (almost all the big ones) that have xsells decided not to pay Freeones and closed their accounts?
It runs both ways. Freeones has traffic because they built a very nice freesite over the years with a lot of work and thought. But without affiliate programs to fund that through sales and content for surfers to look at...it wouldn't last. It's a symbiotic relationship between affiliate and program. Freeones just a few months ago hit everybody with emails saying that they needed a bigger percentage for their account. Now they are saying that they are gonna flag a bunch of programs and cost them money. Something may have to give there.

But not every program will. A few might, but they'd be losing a fairly big amount of money.

That's the beauty of free markets. It's also the reason business cartels are illegal.

I think in this whole X-sell / hidden-xsell discussion one important thing needs to be said:

A xsell on a transaction page, either check or unchecked, that is CLEARLY displayed above the submit button is a perfectly acceptable business practice, especially for any program that pays per-join on trial sign-ups.

I'm not even going to dicuss hidden x-sells or sneaky x-sell techniques, I'm only talking about legit xsells here.

It is well within the right of the program to offer a xsell to a surfer, this is done much more aggressively in mainstream (go buy a domain at godaddy...), it's done at mcdonalds "would you like fries with that" (unchecked xsell).

The people who join adult sites are

a) not stupid
b) can read

I know they can read because they have to check an unchecked terms and condition box to process a transaction and the VAST MAJORITY of surfers uncheck pre-checked xsells.

The argument has been made that "the propotion of people you are ripping off is the same as your xsell &#37;age on a pre-check xsell". This is absolute garbage not only because it is impossible to disentangle which of the surfers left it checked because they wanted to and who left it checked because they didn't read but also that the majority of sites that are being cross-sold to offer a completely legitimate adult product with hudreds of hours of explicit video and photos, more than worth the charge for the site.

I swear we are the only industry who thinks it has to give it's product away and apologize to customers when GOD FORBID they actually pay money for something. The ironic paradox is that the anti-xsell people are also the "if the product was quality then it wouldn't need a x-sell" people. If that's true then why is everyone rushing to the bottom offering more and more content for less and less money?

If you've never run a program and/or been responsible for the business of an affiliate program, then you really don't know what you're talking about. It's all gum-drops and fairy-tales when all you do is collect a pay-check, when peoples' livlihoods depend on the profitability of a program, you might sing a different tune. It's weird, I know, but affiliate programs are in business to stay in business and make profit, it's not a publc service.

You're right. :) But again...it runs both ways. Just as their would be programs (maybe ones that convert as well or not) that would step in to take the place of all the ones who walked.
There would also be other freesites to take over where freeones had left that behind. Which would mean less overexposure to some very high converting sites that suddenly could bring more traffic to other freesites because they would be the ones promoting the sites that have the content that people want to see.

And I'm speaking in general here. I know not every big program has great exclusive content. Most don't. But some of them definitely do. It's a loss/loss for everyone in my opinion. The only winners are the tubes and torrents who are ripping somebodies members area as we speak and destroying everybodies sales.

Amen :2 cents:

Why? The have a few people I'm sure they rock with, the rest of the majority is a trickle of sales. Just like the review sites, a few sites get most of the sales, while the rest split the left overs.

If I was the power house money earner for them, I would have total and clear power of them. As finding another sponsor that can convert the same is very hard. Yes, a program will treat a huge affiliate good - but it works both ways.

If a top earning program for them is a dirty program, do you think that program will get a red warning?

As for me, I will make them remove the icon if they put it next to sites I'm partners with. Just like I have made review sites remove reviews and/or change them until I like them and the rating - or don't push me at all.

Programs will kill a Webmaster doing 2-10 sales a week, without question. Maybe some smaller guys won't. But any med/big program has killed mailers doing 20, 50, 100 sales a day. So please don't think 2-10 a week is going to keep anyone around that doesn't like what the Affiliate is doing.

Good post Steve!

if you feel that a gallery is linking to a "deceptive" join page...then dont list the gallery...
im not putting warning icons on my page....

stated already why we don't do that. And we are not forcing anyone else to use the same idea either.

I am off to bed. Cheers!

She means "If we pay you to advertise on your site, do we get to fuck your surfers without you using warning labels on us?"

Candy Coating from Chase Candy Company.

http://www.cherrymash.com/tour/coating.jpg

when visa says fuck you to all of us. Then all the short sighted can talk about all the money we could of made. For all the it could never happen people, where is it going to go from 1 percent?
we dont have to worry about any right wing group putting a end to us.The short sighted will do it for them. lol

This however is not true. My estimates are that 30% of people joining adult sites have no fucking idea of how internet works in any way and can hardly choose a password and input the cc creditentials. Some other 30% don't know much about computers, other then to input their username/pass and cancle. Only 10% are actually very savy surfers, with intricate knowledge of the biling practices sites on internet (not only porn) use.

If you disagree, i can't give you my real numbers/evidence on this, but you can easilly verify this by putting a captcha on the login page for test, with something like "You have to input the word in the picture in the third form". Captchas are rather "normal" in todays time, alot of surfers have seen them, i'd guess most have, but you'll see by the percentages in your support increase what problems people get into with that simple thing. It ranges from "what picture" to "i am putting my username,password, and word in the third for and its not working". It was even worse when captchas first came by.
These people are not smart and can't read.

There's no grey area, a surfer can't "hardly enter their CC info" or "almost not join a site" - they either can or they can't. If they can't, there is no transaction.

In your argument there exists this person who can't read and doesn't know how the internet or computers work. They have managed to turn on their computer, opened a browser.. gone to a search engine or their favorite porn site. They've surfed around for x amount of time, opening and closing web pages, navigating from one page to another, etc, etc, etc. Then they arrive at a transaction page and ALL OF A SUDDEN their brain falls out of their head and they are a drooling mess, losing all reasoning and ability to read?

Sorry, doesn't fly. People are not selectively retarded.. the person who is able to find the site, navigate the site, get to the join page, succcessfully process the transaction (enter all their CC information, check boxes, uncheck boxes) doest't all of a sudden lose their brains when it comes to a xsell.

The people who can't read or who are too dumb to know anything don't ever successfully join the site. Since we are only talking about people who get their transactions processed, your statements are irrelevant.

If you are saying that there are people who are too dumb to even join a site, then I agree 100%, there are lots of them.

I have had Captcha on my join pages for about 6 years now. Complaints are lower on it than any single user login issue.

If you add a non-checked cross sale why do 10-20% of the people check it? If you add a free to free xsale (like vod) why do almost 50% take it, non-prechecked?

Why is it when you add a precheck, 80-90% of the people un-check them?

What does it mean? It means the majority, most, almost all the people read the join pages. Which is very understandable since they basically have nothing on them and any of the examples above, the xsale is above the submit button.


The problem is when they move them under the submit button. If 10-20% of the people don't read or notice prechecks, then you would have to at least double that for under the button. And that is what everone is up in arms about.

I wouldn't go that far. Consumers for the most part are stupid. Just look at the mortgage mess we're in.

In any event, cross sales are there to trick the consumer. If it was simply about getting them access to another site that they may want, they wouldn't be prechecked. The site is banking on the fact that a number of people aren't reading the fine print and too embarrased/lazy to charge back.

I personally don't have an issue with prechecked sales that are above the submit button and visible. I actually think that's less of an issue than the trial offer bullshit that some sites pull. I think the focus on xsales should be in regards to the sites and companies that are doing it unethically. Basically running credit cards or hiding the information so deep in the site that no normal consumer would ever read.

As someone who signs up for sites he promotes, I can tell you that there are a couple big sponsors who are basically committing credit card fraud. This coming from someone who looks hard for xsales when signing up. These companies are not listing anything at all and simply running the credit card for various other sites that I couldn't find even exist.

Sorry, I wrote Captcha on my join pages, that should have been login pages :)

We have always had 'some programs' doing real fraud. Some have been busted, and I'm sure some haven't. But in the end, if they keep going - they all will.

And really, if you know of people doing that. Provide screenshots, scans, and lookup the complaint boards, ect... Provide all the info you can to the DOJ/FTC and they will look into it. If they are International, most Countries have the same laws and types of Orgs to deal with this, and Interpol is even able to assist.

Real CC/Consumer Fraud, which is not what most these guys are doing, so the real stuff - can be turned over to these guys and trust me when I say, they will read it and if it's legit, they may even follow up with you.

I'm quoted in Court cases used to take down assholes in this business. Trust me, they will use the info if you give it to them.

Ya the purpose of my post was really to make the distinction between what is an ethical business practice and what isn't. I completely disagree with your statement that xsells are there to trick the consumer, that's just simply not true and the data supports it. Some people will choose ti believe that any xsell is unethical, but any rational person knows that is not the case.

Also, as a tidbit of info, the "pre-checked" or "checked" status of a xsell is not a choice made by the program, it is dictated by the processor (in the case of 3rd party processors), and that decision is based on the combined risk profiles of the sites involved.

When you see a pre-checked x-sell on the transaction page of a 3rd party processor two things are true

a) the primary site has an excellent risk profile
b) the xsell site has an excellent risk profile

With "risk profile" being a function of credits, chargebacks, etc and other bad things that would imply an inferior product.

Roald this is awesome a great step in the right direction.

Educating the surfer is the best way to keep them happy and buying porn.

I love how all of the people that support shady xsales are either employed by or profiting directly from them.

Fucking shills.