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pocketkangaroo 07-28-2008 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith (Post 14521080)
Whether you believe in global warming or not isn't the issue for me. In my opinion it can't hurt to change one's lifestyle a little and become greener. I haven't driven a motor vehicle of any kind to get to work in 18 years. I've replaced several bulbs in my home with the longer-lasting more energy efficient ones, I installed water displacers in the backs of the toilet tanks many years ago in my house and rental property, I use an electric mower, have had the house insulated inside and out, I recycle, and I am walking and biking now more than ever. It's a start anyway, but I'm sure I am greener than most.

The question is, how green are you?

Great post. I never understood why it's such a big deal to be a little more greener. No one is saying people should start walking 20 miles to work or not use AC in the summer. It's just about little things that help. Installing a fan to save on electricity in the summer. Insulating your home for the winter better. Most of these things will also save you money in the long run too.

None of this has to be about climate change, just healthier living. If you ever go through a major city in the summer, you can see the smog billowing overhead. No one here can tell me that inhaling that is good for you. That our ecosystem doesn't mind having tons of crap put into the air and waters. Our planet isn't as resilient as we think, small changes to the ecosystem can have massive effects on our lives. In the end, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

mvee 07-28-2008 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmas13 (Post 14517565)
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...te-reason.html

Seven reasons why people hate reason

* 23 July 2008
* Special Report from New Scientist

I like #2

No one actually uses reason

If we had to think logically about everything we did, we?d never do anything at all, says neuroscientist Chris Frith.

volante 07-28-2008 01:55 PM

Quote:

I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.

When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.

The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.

But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.

If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.

When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.

Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.

The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.

So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.

In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.

What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.

The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...6-7583,00.html

sltr 07-28-2008 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith (Post 14521855)
The rest of what you said I basically agree with, but for the above portion I think it has less to do with global warming and more to do with the price of gas of late. When it used to cost $60 to fill up the SUV and now it's $120, a lot of people are no longer interested in buying another one, and are having trouble selling the one they have. One guy I know has a big diesel 3/4 ton and can't sell it for enough to cover what he still owes on it.


Regarding the chick that lives next door to you, if she's that dumb AND hot.... then it's okay. :winkwink:

yah, she's hot. took me to this living food restaurant over the weekend. nothing cooked.
basically one more step beyond vegan. i poured out my coconut water when she went to the bathroom.

but yes, mpg is an important component of the new marketing. for me, green means energy conservation- period.

also, not sure if y'all see the same thing happening in canadia but we're seeing a lot of oil co advertising toting their green initiatives/oil alternative research, all in the green theme.

pocketkangaroo 07-28-2008 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr (Post 14521773)
american car manufacturers were poised to go beyond 2010 with SUVs for instance, as a result of all the green speak, many marques have canceled plans for future SUV models, slowed/halted production on current ones and have shifted manufacturing AND marketing to address the new need for green that consumers have.

You don't think the SUV thing has anything to do with the fact the economy sucks and gas is through the roof? Getting 10 MPG isn't as attractive when you're paying nearly $5 a gallon.

baddog 07-28-2008 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr (Post 14521958)
yah, she's hot. took me to this living food restaurant over the weekend. nothing cooked.
basically one more step beyond vegan. i poured out my coconut water when she went to the bathroom.

Where did you go? I have been to a couple raw food restaurants with my daughter . . . you would think it would be cheaper than a surf and turf, but not so.

Dollarmansteve 07-28-2008 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volante (Post 14521953)

Heretic!!

Stepane Dion, the leader of the Liberal Party in canada, has an agressive carbon tax plan that will decimate the oil and gas industry in this country (Canada) and put tens of thousands of people out of work - politicians are the greatest threat to our society, not carbon :2 cents:

sltr 07-28-2008 02:24 PM

y0 pocketkangaroo, i appended my comments, in my my mind i think green is energy conservation, thus my too generalized comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14522027)
Where did you go? I have been to a couple raw food restaurants with my daughter . . . you would think it would be cheaper than a surf and turf, but not so.

i just checked the receipt, it's the tierra bella cafe- on pch at about ave i, i believe, we walked there.

the french toast was not 1/2 bad, made out of dehydrated things, had a smoothie that was super good actually, but the color threw me.

Odie 07-28-2008 02:45 PM

there you go again Steve...stirrin the pot!

baddog 07-28-2008 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr (Post 14522078)
i just checked the receipt, it's the tierra bella cafe- on pch at about ave i, i believe, we walked there.

the french toast was not 1/2 bad, made out of dehydrated things, had a smoothie that was super good actually, but the color threw me.

Was the french toast made with real bread? One of the places I went to would never use "bread" but rather smash for stuff into a paste and let it dry on the sidewalk or something.

sltr 07-28-2008 03:09 PM

i mentioned the french toast was made of "dehydrated things"

it was a living food restaurant, which as i understood it means no cooked food, obviously no meat, certainly no bread.

Michaelious 07-28-2008 03:11 PM

Still missing the point. Either way look after the environment.

Martin 07-28-2008 03:43 PM

:)

baddog 07-28-2008 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr (Post 14522291)
i mentioned the french toast was made of "dehydrated things"

Sorry, scanning does that.

Drake 07-28-2008 04:04 PM

Global warming schwarming

Martin 07-28-2008 04:13 PM

Hey guys want to be freaked out? Watch this video.

Martin 07-28-2008 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin (Post 14522597)
Hey guys want to be freaked out? Watch this video.

Skip the religious propaganda.

CDSmith 07-28-2008 10:57 PM

Right now it's global RAINING. Holy huge thunderboomer overhead batman!

Yet still I remain at the computer. :D

Kudles 07-29-2008 10:34 AM

I'm not sure what to think

notime 07-29-2008 10:36 AM

one warm coat & live raft per signup ?


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