while everyone is arguing here, i just put 75 new clips up on my tube site.... :thumbsup

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I don't really have a side in this as it doesn't effect me as much not being a paysite owner. But my question is for those who are for the streaming/flash.

It would seem to me that if you have unique content, perhaps a solo girl or a site that is just different from what else is out there (some of the reality type stuff or a particular fetish), you wouldn't have a problem doing this. The guy signing up wants your stuff and really can't find it anywhere else. He's going to have to deal with whatever the members area has setup inside.

But I'm wondering how it effects the more generic sites (those without unique content). The ones that are giving you hundreds of run-of-the-mill porn that can probably be found on dozens of sites. If a surfer has an option to choose between one that is streaming and one where he can download, he's going to take the latter. So with all the competition out there, why bother if you run one of these type of sites? The content is going to get out there one way or the other unless you somehow can convince every other porn site with similar content to move away from downloads.

While none of that makes sense, I guess what I'm saying is that it seems that the content protection would really only benefit those sites with unique content or something that can't be found anywhere else.

What was the question again? :winkwink:

Well with the cat.. meooowwww is out of the bag on any of the older stuff, you can't stuff it back in. I would mainly focus on any new exclusive stuff. The dvd video producers would be smart to start only allowing streaming for any new productions too. Can't get the stuff back that is out there, but everyone can cut off the new supply. To me that seems pretty cut and dry. Stop any of the new stuff from getting out, then you can start attacking the infringers.

Man....


zingerz the republican bro is like a dog with a bone.

Fucking A

Rooff!!!!!

yeah,us pornographers should go on strike.

:angrysoap

amen:thumbsup

I remember way back when I started to see free hosted movie galleries from sponsors, I told tons of webmasters the days of sales were coming to an end, ( well huge drop anyways ). Right from the get go I said videos should be made to stay in members areas only!! Once sponsors started letting them out for affiliates to use, that caused the rush for affiliates to get the videos on their free sites, and attract more vistors. That just brought on the tube sites.

Use images to lure the buyers, and get them to buy when they see they can get video in members area only!! fuck the downloading bullshit. If all sponsors pulled their heads out of their asses, and made it impossible to download videos, you will make more cash in long run.

As a surfer, why would I want to pay when I can hit up the millions of free sites and just jerk to it all the free videos?

Maybe a thumbs up would of been a better smilie then. No worries, I thick skinned.

To everyone.
Reading some of the posts here it's clear why Tubes are taking so much of our traffic. The amount we know about our buyers is so little we are bound to lose them to people who meet their needs better than we do.

There is no one type of buyer, there are many types. You have to target one type, in one niche and target him alone. Stop worrying about whether the surfer wants to download or not, some do and some don't. Some want to jerk off for 15 minutes to any porn in a niche they can find and leave. Some want to get into a site and spend an hour every day. They are all different and you need to know your customer a lot better than you know your affiliate today. The days of traffic being king are gone. Sorry if I keep saying it but it's not getting through to some.

Tubes are here to stay and there is fuck all we or anyone else can do about it. Yes here to stay, live with them and adapt or move on. They don't give a fuck if they close down 90% of the paysites on the Net. It will just mean more surfers with less options coming to them. They don't care if you make it impossible for them to steal content. The odds on you doing this are very very long but should it happen they will buy content or get it for free from sponsors who will support them. If they shut down sites and these sites are up for sale they will buy the site for the content and pay a pittance for it.

If you take down one scene from "Teensfuckedcash" the Tube surfer will look at a scene from "Teenfuckcash". The content is the same, often the same girl, same action, same faked impersonal porn that is not worth spending $30.

Tube sites don't care if they reduce the turn over of this industry by 90%. Because if they are the only ones left they will be getting the 10% left and that's more than they need. There business model is to sell dating, web cams and what ever they can. Like commercial TV their business is to sell advertising not entertainment.

So what can you do to stay in business? I say you because I have content that can't be duplicated and that's the key. If you want someone to sign up for 30 days you have to give him 30 days of entertainment that he can't get on a Tube site.

Or you go the Clips4sale, AEBN, Strictlybroadband, etc. route of giving the surfer the scene he wants at the price he's willing to pay for it.

We got ourselves into this mess. Every time we sent a surfer to a site that met our needs and not his we made another surfer think a Tube site was a better place to get porn. We need to get the surfers who will buy back to buying because it's a better deal and not dream Pandora's Box will close.

There are many kinds of porn consumers with many kinds of needs, thinking they are all the same is folly. Target one type and meet his needs not yours.

Spot on the money. For 8 years this industry has largely regarded content as second or even third in the structure of running a site. People shooting the same scene over and over again, just changing the girl and sofa does not make a scene "Exclusive". Shooting it on HD does not make it better porn. Shooting it on a budget that's a joke leads to getting monkeys who can point a camera. When you have programmers selling porn you are going to get problems. Printers print magazines, they never determine the content of the magazine. On the Adult net it's programmers who don't know porn deciding what goes into a site.

The industry is largely built around sites that have content most people can shoot and they have nothing better to offer the surfer than a Tube site. For many the answer has been to pay and spend more for the traffic. They did not know how to solve the original problem that surfers were not coming, converting or/and retaining.

For these sites the future is bleak.

If you don't know how do you expect to sell it? Other than sending 1000 people to get 1 sign up.

Hit the nail right on the head there :2 cents:

I have to jump in on this one.

While I concede that could be the case for 'some' niches. I know for us, based on e-mails from members, and buyers, they prefer new girls, redo the scene.

For example, we get e-mails that go something like this. "Man that bla blah blah scene was fucking awesome. Love the camera angles, and the girls getting into it. In the future, do you think you could do that with model 1 and model 2, maybe even model 3? Thanks man, keep up the good work!"

We have certain 'themes' where members want the same thing over and over. While rare in most porn. You can get away with it in smaller niches.

While I agree with PM on some of his points, I always caution when it comes to this whole, 'every one', 'all', 'no one' rhetoric.

What looks like monkey shot, single sofa porn to other webmasters could be what rebilling members are actually asking for (ok, maybe not that lame, but some repeat of scenes). I know we get some of that, and honestly, members and customers pay for our material. Not webmasters. So I could care less what another 'photographer' says. Frankly, once they start paying my bills, then I'll listen. Until then, I'll listen to the buying customer.

This is another example where many fall into that whole, pretty porn, much like the pretty website logic. I am not out to impress other webmasters with my site(s) or content. I am in this to make money. As long as money keeps rolling in, and members keep telling me what is up, and sales follow those e-mails. I'll shoot that same scene over and over and over with new girls every week until the cows come home.

Or zingerz stops kicking a dead horse..... :winkwink:

I was speaking generally and there are sites that have scenes that do just repeat the same scene. They are in the minority and the proof is the retention. One of the best sites, IMO, is Alsscan, they seem to shoot the same thing and yet keep it fresh. Give Me Pink as well. I was being general and do see some sites surviving.

I never get a reply from people saying "You know what I think we might be guilty of that a bit." But we all know these sites exist. All I get is replies from people telling me they're not doing that. LOL

Just reread what I posted and I got it wrong it should read.

I was speaking generally and there are sites that do well and have scenes that repeat the same scene.

Put's a different twist on it. Had a heavy lunch with wine. :drinkup

You thread jackerssssss!

The funny (and maybe ironic in an Alannis Morriesette kind of way) thing is this.

Old school webmasters "The Tubes are killing us RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE They will be the death of adult RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

Old School webmasters "You HAVE TO DO DOWNLOADS or you will lose all your customers"

Me observation "Tube sites DONT HAVE DOWNLOADS"

Old School webmasters "Rabble?"

So in short we are losing all our members to a model that doesn't have downloads, but we have to keep downloads to keep our members. Umm.. :uhoh

But wahh thats cause tubes are free. People paying want downloads wahh.

Everyone on the fookin internet goes to Youtube.com They know how streaming "can work" The streaming I use in our members areas kicks youtubes ass quite frankly. So I guess the next thing will be HD porn tube sites. lol Its coming, mark my words. And those that do not keep their shit secure will have their expensive HD scenes right up on those HD tube sites. And they will STILL be going, "but the members want downloads." :1orglaugh

So what is the board?

Well then look again. It's working fine. That's the user contributed sister site to The Best Porn. The numbers are overwhelmingly stacked against your point of view.

Yes and all of those same members probably use youtube daily too. :winkwink:

I don't think a poll that that can be accurate. We need someone like VideoBox.com to come in here and reveal some stats on their percentage of Streaming use and Download use. :2 cents:

Most of those discussions are about DRM. The early DRM pissed people the fuck off. That is not even comparable to what I am talking about.

And beside in ANY industry if you polled a customer if they want more for a lower price they would vote yes.

That does not mean it is better for our industry, or that members would not adapt quickly to a new model that provides them with better video faster.

Good point. In my opinion it's more of a case of which service/site offers content to the end user in the most convenient way.

There's a somewhat of a track record with this too when you consider the evolution of music purchases. Albums gave way to 8 tracks because of size and portability which gave way to cassettes for the same reason which gave way to CDs... With the music example the convenience rather than the deisire to pirate content that drove the change thus I'm with stickyfingerz in believing that convenience as opposed to piracy will always be the option surfers are going to opt for. :2 cents:

Youtube is free not a membership site. FYI In fact I think all the tubes arent membership sites.

Agreed :thumbsup

We are playing around with different models of Flash- only right now. We should be rolling something out shortly. Users stats say download is still #1. However, we are trying to modify users tendencies by adding unique features on the flash player that will encourage streaming as opposed to DL. Not surprisingly the adoption rate to the flash player has been real slow. We have seen some migration and expect allot more as we release some other community features that will be flash based.

Paul Markham is a crazy rambling idiot FYI.

Thanks for posting. I was going to email you to ask that. Are the percentages getting closer? Im personally a member of your site, and Im on the beta part of the site. Is the percentage of user using flash larger on the beta part than it is on the old design? Im sure there are a lot of variables to factor in too, such as location of user, bandwidth of user, what computer they are using. I am sure there are some computers out that that have issues with flash playback due to cpu and video card issues too. I think a lot of those issues will start to not be as big of an issue as broadband and computer speeds increase across the board.

As is normal a good thread dies off. :disgust

how did this thread go from illegal tube site owners forum to whats the best way to serve content to members?

I don't think it's fair to compare a free tube site to a paysite. There are different expectations. Whether those expectations center around downloading vs streaming is another story.

But if you purchased Showtime so that you could watch Dexter, and Showtime said "We aren't putting the show on TV anymore, you have to watch it on YouTube for the same price", would people be pissed? Would subscriptions go down? I don't think it's as simple as saying that the format doesn't matter at all. YouTube isn't popular because of the content or the method it's delivered, it's popular because it's free. If YouTube started charging $20/month, the site would retain some people, but lose a huge audience.

Exactly.

Thats a lot of food for thought... I agree with you for the most part.

Yes but the problem with that analogy is you are talking web format either way, where going from showtime to youtube is a huge difference. You are also suggesting that streaming is poorer quality vs downloads, which is false. I can stream 1280x720 res vids that open full screen and look awesome on a 22" monitor. Crisp and clean and no buffer. Its not a question of quality here. Its a question of if the member should be allowed to "own" the content for a monthly or trial subscription, and the impact that has had, and will have on our industry.

I was just thinking about another analogy for some of that post. Lets say a guy walks into an adult video store with booths where they can wack it. How many people would get pissed if they had to wait 18 minutes or so to download the scene they want to watch. Do you think any of them get pissed off that they just spent 12.00 on tokens and didnt get to keep the videos they watched? No because they dont expect to get to keep them. Its all about the expectations that they have been fed since 96 or so. lol

Maybe old school webmasters should look at the real old school adult model more lol.

I understand your trying to push the flash thing but because you are so green with not much experience in the membership area is that most people that pay for a membership are collectors. You might figure that out after you start getting more than 10 new sales a day.

lol Ok Mr. Noname again tell us what sites you run or gtfo. Funny thing is I thought most people joined paysites so they could jerk their gerkin. You keep letting them "collect". I hear most of these "collectors" like to maintain their huge collections on RapidShare. :uhoh

Go down with that big ship the S.S. Collector. :thumbsup

Because the choices made by paysites is what is mainly feeding the tubes. No downloadable videos, would cut way back on what they had to use on the illegal tubes.

You not knowing who I am does nothing to disprove what i said. Oh and I get more sales to one of my sites in a day than your whole proggie gets in a week.

What is streaming h264 rtmpe? I hear everyone saying it's safe to have steaming movies in their members area rather than downloadable, but I can still download flash movies...or is streaming h264 rtmpe something that makes it not downloadable?

Yes it is not downloadable. Stream can't be ripped. Only option they have is to use screen capture recorder.

Its AWESOME you can brag about how well you are doing (of course you are doing so while hiding your identity so pretty easy to claim whatever you want huh?). :thumbsup Doesn't make a shit of difference to the problem at hand. So far you have told us a member can download a 20 minute scene in less than a minute. That right there made you seem really really genuine. Kudos.

Even if you go by web format, it's still an issue. I don't purchase my music through iTunes because of their format that limits what I can listen to music on. I avoid Napster and a few others because they are monthly subscriptions that don't give me any ownership whatsoever of the song.

I'm just saying it isn't all black and white with digital media. Every user has their own preferences. Some sites can pull off streaming (unique ones), others can't (generic). There are going to be people upset whichever way you do it and the goal is ultimately to piss of the least amount of people.

In any event, I still think the issue of streaming vs download isn't the biggest issue. I still feel only a small percent of the web audience really cares about the format. Rebills on paysites are dead for the most part in adult, so the initial sale is more important.

The bigger issue is that porn sucks. Maybe others will disagree, but there is rarely any innovative sites going up these days. It's the same old scenes, same old niches, same old members areas. You occasionally get something unique like Brandi Belle, IBangPornstars, etc, but for the most part, 99% of the sites out there are just crap. That's why a lot of people are going to tubes and illegal downloads. There isn't much difference in site A and site B when it comes to content.

While I think it's still in the best interest of the industry to fight copyright infringement and other issues in this realm, I think some need to look in the mirror and realize that the stuff they have on their sites just plain sucks. I still believe people will pay for good stuff. I've personally seen it with sites that were unique converting much better than sites that aren't. Brandi Belle was pulling 1:200 for me for months while others could barely scratch the 1:1000 mark.

I agree on most of that. Uniqueness will make a huge difference. Music is slightly different as portability is a larger issue. We do have ipod sections users can download. That to me is fine. We use a slightly larger watermark for ipod videos and they are only 320x240 or whatever the IPod large setting is lol. I havent looked for a while at sizes. Im working on switching to a streaming only model on our niche stuff, but I will phase that in. Allow the old stuff that is up to stay up for a while, but only do updates on streaming, then slowly remove the download vids as it goes. I just really think the model was flawed from the get go, and its going to be hard to reverse the damage, but not impossible.

int3rsting i n3v3r n3w that

:eek7:helpme

I find it hysterical that everyone is stuck on what the surfer wants. The surfer wants free access to your site, unlimited downloads, and for your exclusive models to come to his house and blow him and his friends. If you have unique content, exclusive models, etc. than the surfer will take it any way he can get it. Do you think Nasty Dollars would lose all of their customers if they went to flash only? Hell no, because what they offer no one else has.

The problem is the guys with the cookie cutter sites and the same non exclusive content as everyone else will bend over and spread their cheeks because they have nothing to offer that can't be attained elsewhere, so they are held hostage by the surfer. Not to mention that you have a better chance of brokering peace in the Middle East than getting paysite owners to agree on anything, let alone what is best for them...

If this is right then why did we for years treat him like an impulse buyer who would not sign up if we gave him too much hardcore in a TGP Gallery, why did we tell everyone to keep it soft in the tours and promo material and why did we shoot such crap content that was not worth keeping?

You simply cant say something today and ignore how we generally as an industry have worked for 8 years. Without losing the faith of your customers.

Well this crazy rambling idiot has been telling you for years content is more important than traffic and cheating members, strong word but for some it fits, will lead to the customer rejecting us. The industry has been following the advice of the gurus for years and look where it has landed us. Or was all the advice right and the surfer rejected us anyway?

Careful BradM will call you a rambling idiot.

You are of course dead right. For years sponsors in the main have tried to cut the cost of content and spend as much as possible on marketing. Some sponsors were paying $300 for a solo girl set and video and expecting the shooter to do 5 in a day. This is a recipe for shit content. A good shooter with good girl can shoot a single set that's worth $1500 in 30 minutes. And still own the content after it's sold. Why should anyone decent work like that for $300?

What can you shoot that's good innovative, unique and pornographic asking a girl to jerk off 5 times on video in front of a stranger and all in a day? The sites that have this content are many and you all know them. Yes some of them were successful and you all said it was because they had exclusive content. Exclusive boring cloned content shot for a price less than I get for a front cover shot. Pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Then there is the belief that anyone can pick up a camera and shoot porn. The proof is that Alsscan and Bangbus do it. The guys at Alsscan and Bangbus have talent, talent that few selling porn can see. All they see is a sponsor shooting for themselves, they can do it so can anyone else. Shows how stupid so many are. Think about it we pornographers do a job 50% of males would love to do. Truth is less than 1% can do it. Don't argue with the numbers.

So for 8 years this industry has said traffic is king, content can be got anywhere and now we have an abundance of surfers thinking a Tube site is a better deal. I think a Tube site is a better deal than most of the paysites out there. Which is a sad reflection on what we have created.

Yes we should protect our copyright more and moves that are going on now in court will hopefully help us. But we have to have something worth protecting. If it's the type of content on so many sites it's not worth the effort of sending a DMCA unless every sponsor sends them and many think Tubes send traffic so will give them content, yes full scenes. If you remove one "ATK blond on a sofa" type scene the surfer will not come over to ATK to sign up. He will go look at a "Karups blond on a sofa" scene. Or a scene from countless other sponsors who shot the same scene over and over again.

And there is your problem, we have driven the value of our product down and down until the surfer not only does not see any point in signing up, often there is not point in signing up because a tube site OUT SELLS A PAYSITE.

AND THIS IS THE REAL CRUX OF THIS PROBLEM. Tube8 gives me a better deal than most paysites, whether I pay for it or not. I would pay $10 a month for Tube8, if they put it on faster servers. I would not pay $10 for most of the sites this industry charges $30 for.

That's the real problem. The solution is obvious but few will take it. They will dream of the day Tube sites disappear. Probably years after they do.

As for copyright issues, Tube sites and their supporters will get round that. You've driven down the price of content to a level that they can afford to buy. And they will buy the sites they are putting out of business to get hold of the content cheaply.

As for stickyfingerz solution. Yes it might work if everyone adopted it. Which means it will never happen. A few sponsors will decide to give downloads, spam GFY giving every 50th poster a free iPod, pay $50 on every sign up, fill the sites with shit and 100s of affiliates will send more paying surfers to the Tube sites 30 days after they decided they were scammed.

Hey BradM another rambling idiot. :1orglaugh