I assume, even after reading this discussion, what we can see here is a certain state of disorder, to sum it up, there are a couple factors I would examine as crucial:

1) there is more porn than ever on the market competing for the surfer and his credit card, mostly the same "clones" of what turned out to be succesful in 2000/ 01 or so

2) at the same time, it's the first time in the history when surfers have an IMMEDIATE access to free pirated porn, that doesn't require any semi technical skills or even waiting, immedate access to satisfaction with the content, that is totally similar to what most of the marketers are pushing.

3) on the top of that, for the first time, it's not the porn producer, but the consumer, who decides what he wants and what's available, just check all the big old school brands with their high quality product and how many of them bleed.

It's the first time when anyone can expose their ass, the definition of porn has changed, the consumers are not dependent on what producers put on the market but they can create even their own thing.

4) the consumer base is educated, and it's more and more consumers that already joined a paysite in the past, the internet in households is spread for say 10 - 12 + years and honestly, raise your hand who never searched for porn on the web.. These consumers are more demanding and know the old tricks.

5) Porn is not a luxury thing, it's a need, and there will be always a demand for that, unless it will be available for free, as far as it's a need, you'll just grab whatever turns you on to get off, the same as if you're hungry you grab a junk food to satisfy your basic need. This is a parallel to the tube porn vs. higher quality paid porn.

6) there is not much variety in the way the paysites are promoted over the years, just it's more promoters and more paysites around than ever, that's why blogs or review sites are still a succesful promotional tool, because they give the surfer a recommendation, a referrence, they amuse him, creating certain loyalty, they have character, instead of trying to grab the surfer for the product trying to amaze him simply with the obvious fact that he is seeing porn he saw already hundred times, as thousands of other sites do.

Just tried to do a little summary, feel free to add your thoughts.

There's such a huge amount of amateur submitted stuff out there now, even if all pirated stuff were removed it wouldn't change the nature of tube sites taking business away from paid forms of porn.

If you look at things from a surfers point of view -- then the choice between a large MGP and a Tube site is a no-brainer. When a surfer hits a MGP they see a thumb they like, they click it, and get sent to some other site. They see another thumb on this new site, they click it, and get sent to another site, etc. etc. etc. The same surfer goes to a tube site, they see a thumb they like, they click it, they watch it. The surfer is happy! The surfer bookmarks the tube site and never goes back to the MGP.

Instead of adadpting and confronting the new reality of the web -- MGPs are carrying on like it is business as usual, whilst they lose their surfers, and their money. The MGP business model is in decline, and has passed it's maturity stage. The tube site has left it's development stage and is now in it's growth stage. As the tubes grow, and the MGP decline -- it is the failure of the MGP to change that is setting them up for continued failure and ultimately obscurity.

Here is a chart showing the rise of a medium sized tube site, and the decline of a very large MGP. Remember -- if you are not growing, you are shrinking. Names deleted to save embarrassment / conflict;


http://b.imagehost.org/0966/Picture_4.png

I invented failing porn niches...

awesome post

I saw that happen in a few places using Alexa also but everyone around here says Alexa does not matter! LOL! At anyrate since it is here now and the cat is out of the bag.

Finding these crosses is not to hard. Pick some of your favorite TGP's and compare them with some of the popular tube sites. Its fascinating to see where the cross happens.

Now if we can take these charts and contrast them with sales trends...
I am betting the sales trend drops as the Tube site climbs.

Well I wont block the names...

Here...
Be sure to sit down guys before seeing this...



http://www.ialien.com/goodnight.jpg

what he said :thumbsup


Fight the you took the words outta my keyboard!

hahahahaha to funny! the gif

That would be interesting to find out... but for some reason webmasters KNOW what is happening but deny it in there own head!

on general forums where surfers might happen to mention porn once in a while, I have seen them recommend sites like youporn or pornbb to each other but nobody ever recommends a tgp or mgp... as the months go by it is getting rarer and rarer to find those that don't know where to get lots of free content, even in face to face conversations in the bar I've heard guys recommending redtube or youporn to buddies

How about a secret club of old schoolers who pay monthly dues, pool the money and pay russian and filipino kids to constantly bring these pieces of shit offline. It's obvious that they're here to stay and that their bullshit illegal practices can only be combatted by equally dirty and illegal practices.

Thank you!

Tubesites and Share Sites. Who is going to pay $30-$40/month plus cross-sells when you can get full site rips for free? I probably can get any site witthin a couple of hours ripped& zipped & dowloadable on Rapidshare & Co. if I know in which forum to post the request.
I've been bringing this up in here and other places for over a year now but nobody seems to give a shit. Oh well, start liking it, and make single girl niche sites, and you'll always have a trusty fan base...

wow.. that is a HUGE problem

Alexa's Top 100 sites picks:

10. RapidShare
21. YouPorn
30. Redtube.com
32. MiniNova
59. The Pirate Bay
71. Isohunt.com
91. Torrentz.com

The problem is actually bigger than you begin to know, and goes way beyond copyright violations. The question is, why would someone want to put up a free share site and burn terrabytes of transfer volume ever minute of the day?

The answer is: On every illegal sick and fucked up Zootube, Rapeforum, Snuff-forum, NN-share-stolen-shit-Site out there, you'll see a banner of a major, supposedly reputable company popping up.

It works like this:

-have someone put up a free tube or share site
-have supposedly anonymous users upload totally sick content
-share the content for free (you didn't know a "Rapeboard" promotes rape)
-then put your banner on top and ask visitors:

"Wanna date chicks that like it rough in your zip code: Join the Adult Rape Finder HERE!"

Good discussion and points :)

"you'll see a banner of a major, supposedly reputable company popping up" As long as they make money, they dont fucking care how to make it, traffic is traffic, money is money.

Traffic being up and increased revenue are 2 completely different things. Very few in this business have any kind of business sense, and feel the only way to compete is by giving away as much as possible out of desperation. And when you do not produce the content or have a stake in it you simply do not give a shit. Every day more and more consumer are trained to no be paying consumers of porn because of the amount of stolen content available and shady billing practices of some programs.


Thats the truth.


Pricing...

The only ballers in this business are the ones that gouge YOUR surfers and charge them over $100 for memberships through prechecked/hidden xsales and shady trials. Look where you send your traffic and see if YOU are feeding the problem.

gas prices, inflation, and a poor economy. maybe once we get a dem in office things will be better

That's right, as long as it brings traffic (=money) they don't give a shit whether it's stolen content, rape, beastiality, snuff, kp, or rebels cutting women's breasts off with machetes. I always was a strong supporter of a free, uncensored Internet, but after seeing what I've seen in the past 12 months I have my own doubts about that.

Eventually two things are going to happen, and both will mean the end of the Internet as we know it.

1. Something really sick and disgusting is going to happen and will be used by the Feds as an excuse to censor, may be even in a joint effort with the EU. There are already talks.


2.Big telephone companies are going to step in, demanding a piece of the cake too. They'll use the Tube sites as an excuse to charge their customers per Gigabyte, which will be the end of the free Internet. It's already in the make, it's just on hold because of election year.

Then an ISP will come along and offer "unlimited internet" again, and guess which ISP the customers will flock to? Things will have come full circle.

You are apparently totally clueless about how the Internet works. ISPs rent from telephone companies, it's the big companies like AT&T in every country that make the rules, together with the government, both, in the US and Europe.

If, let's say, Deutsche Telekom in Germany charges per Gigabyte, all the ISPs have to follow because they rent from them.

As for the censorship, it has already started in France

http://blog.t1production.com/french-...censor-the-web

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1034_3-6237715.html

and the UK is most likely to follow suit. Bookmark my words, and pull it up again in two years.

Sorry you're a surfer and member so your opinion does not count. Now if you were an affiliate everyone here would be licking your balls. </sarcasm>

And the above post and my reply tells you why so many members are not buying over and over. We built it to suit ourselves and not the customer. The customer has now decided a Tube site is better value than most paysites. You can't or won't close Tube sites, so you have one option. Make a paysite so much better those who will pay will join. Leave those who won't burning the Tubes BW.

"1. Something really sick and disgusting is going to happen and will be used by the Feds as an excuse to censor, may be even in a joint effort with the EU. There are already talks. "

Even a adult check to keep minors out of out netorks would be helpful...
I am hoping that some regulation comes via an international effort and I do believe it should be a TLD.

One of the reasons why I backed the .sex extension believing that it might help slow the glut of free porn and unverified adult sites with some regulation. Unfortunatly .sex was all about greed and no effort for real self regulation and at the 11th hour I changed my mind about it as the facts of it were not fair or just for the industry.

If such a thing come forward again I hope that it is wrritten properly and drafted correctly to protect our industry, while keeping minors out.

.Sex could work if the right guys were behind it and the concept was not greed centric.

FUCKING ACE POST :thumbsup

I SEE THE WORLD FROM THE PRODUCERS POINT OF VIEW, SO TAKE IT AS THAT VIEW.

This is so true. So many sites are churned out with porn that has no feeling, emotion and true personality today many surfers are asking themselves why pay $30 for a site with 50 scenes that are no better or different than a Tube site? Many sites are full of porn shot by the same person, sometimes a guy who has a years experience or a shooter on a budget that simply does not allow him to shoot decent porn.

Many many top sites buy in content that is massed produced and crap. The surfer sees no value to it because the sponsor put no value on it. He might of asked the shooter to do 5 solo girls sets and videos on a day for $1500. This country was full of shooters shooting low quality porn with shooters and girls going through the motions.

For 8 years I told you content is king and you told me I was wrong. Well the truth is unless you have a site the surfer will sign up to and stay you have to keep sending vast amounts of traffic. Traffic that had decided a Tube site has more to offer.

3) Your offerings grow increasingly out of touch with the demands of consumers. This could be a combination of customer demand changing or simply producers shooting stuff that customers don't care for. I think it's more the latter. How many shooters actually watch porn on a personal level? Shooters are motivated to get more work they are "playing it safe" and have come up with their own rules of what is correct. As a consequence there isn't much variety to all the content out there. Everything is the same.[/QUOTE] Spot on. This side of porn has always looked down on porn, the producer and consumer. Many here think this is an Internet business, it's not it's porn delivered on the Internet.

How many here consume, like, pay for or even understand porn? Very few and this had led to the industry selling to itself and ignoring what the consumer needs. When someone comes in and takes the consumer away from them it's always someone else's fault. If you lose a client it's your fault for not meeting his needs, not the fault of the guy who picked him up. That customer was looking else where.

If you don't know why people should buy, why are you selling?

This post tells you so much about why this business is suffering.

Porn = Fantasy the user can believe in, empathize with and arouse him/her.

I've looked on the tube sites and they're full of scenes of girls faking it with little coming from them. The girl is just a piece of meat because she put no personality into the scene. On top of this is the "comedy" why are they there, what do they like, who are they? So many here say they don't want this, this is people who don't pay for porn and will jerk off to anything dictating the content we sell. Small wonder we produced content not worth buying.

It takes skill to produce porn. It's not something anyone with a camera and a naked girl can do. I told you this for the last 8 years, you told me I was talking nonsense. Now the consumer has spoken.

We made our bed, now we have to lie in it.

And you're thinking is spot on. Mostly we produced porn at a price or shooters who don't have a clue. The result was bland porn that was just like white bread, tasteless but filled you up. You can't charge people $30 for stuff that is not worth $30 year in year out. Eventually they will move over.

If you produce crap porn that's no better than what's on a Tube site why should the surfer pay?

Absolutely fucking clueless post. And the reason why some are suffering.

BVF for your information not every porn consumer wants to see a girl getting fucked. Tube sites are full of bland porn. Maybe his site Tony's site provides something that's not on a Tube site.

So for my last post in this thread, before all the flamers arrive, this is my solution for some.

A) Produce porn the consumer wants to buy. It's that simple and if you don't know how or what then you should not be in the business. Put the same effort into the product as you do the traffic and you will find you need less traffic.

B) Meet the customers needs not your needs more. Some guys want to be in a site for a year, some a month and some 20 minutes. You need to decide who you can aim to sell to and sell to him. If he wants 20 minutes sell him 20 minutes at a price he will pay or lose him Clips4sale does it. If he wants 2 days, sell him 2 days, he will find trials he will cancel the moment he joins if you don't. If he wants 30 days give him a site worth 30 days. Same porn, different shooters, different girls (unless a good solo girl site) it's surprising how many sites are full of the same scenes, repeated time after time and that scene is on other sites time after time.

C) The consumer is a repeat buyer. And not a one off impulse buy. Produce what sells to the man with the money, not what generates traffic and sells to webmasters. Porn is a very disposable product, once bought and used it's usually discarded and the buyer moves on to the next scene. The guy who buys it knows it, understands it and loves it. If you don't how can you sell to him?

Many buyers have been ripped off or disappointed over the years that they are now very hard to sell to. Some of you sent traffic to sites that long term would hurt you. Welcome to the result. I would bet many people looking for porn on Tube sites have bought memberships and now decide they're better off keeping their money in their pocket.

FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU, FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON ME.

Now you can all tell me I'm clueless and you guys know it all. :1orglaugh

Here is the problem with that. If copa passes it will only be for US webmasters. Only about half the sites out there are run by US webmasters. That means US webmasters will have to age check their sites while everyone else doesn't. All it it will achieve is making those free sites that don't have age check that much more popular. Sure, it will cut down on the amount of free porn, but there is still plenty of free porn out there so I would imagine the surfer will have no problem finding it and those in the US will be out of luck.

Thats why a beneficial Adult TLD would be really good for the industry, it would have a global effect.

Each registration results in proper representation and lobbying, a organization that regulates and an administrative portion that verifies compliant adult TLD's and a portion of it dedicated to combating piracy on adult related sites.

That would be pretty fucken sweet. Maybe a year or two from now it will happen, but something serious has to happen. I for one seriously believe this industry is shit canning itself. I am an advocate of self enforced regulation and hte only way for that to really happen is to have an enforcing body at the source.

It would rock until the government gets a religous whack job in the white house and they pass a law requiring all adult TLD domains to be blocked by all ISPs. They require them to be block as the default setting and if you want access to them you have to call the ISP and have access to them turned on. A lot of people would be too embarrassed to call and have it turned on and traffic would disappear over night.

Don't think it could happen? If they can successfully pass a law to require age verification to get into a website, blocking an adult TLD is only one step away.

Only an idiot designer would make a statement like this.

do you guys realize some of us are still doing link exchanges / traffic trading with tube sites ? that is shooting our selves in the foot

If they have ONE illegal content video,... ONE simple DMCA sent to Google solves that issue. They are then removed from the SERPS.

The end.

Apparently many companies who claim their shit is always being stolen, talk a big game on the boards, talk about busting heads, lawyers, and taking names, lack the balls to follow through. It really is not that hard to enforce your copyright.

:2 cents:

Is it really that easy?

Exactly.

No where in the real business world... the gas station, local donut shop, neighborhood industry, music, movies.... are things just "given away for free". Fucking business 101. The cost must be passed to the consumer.

The fact is that a bunch of retards in this business who know nothing about conversions, and let greed and laziness influence their business decisions defined the web of today.

Because of them, you have many who think they do not have to pay for things, and anything on the net should be free or very minimal cost.


:disgust

Yes. It really is.

They, the offending website, can remove your shit, and try and get re-inclusion. But if enough people are hammering the same site, they are not going to get re-included, and will be forever 'sand boxed' in the G.

Prime example of this is Perfect 10, and 'chillingeffects.org'. It's old news now.

This goes to show, once again, the difference on who actually do something about copyright (as we do) and those who just 'talk tough' on the boards.

Because they are all talk chief.

Saber rattling impresses the sheep on the boards apparently. Or it must give you 'bro' status.

:disgust