A question for Libertarians - GoFuckYourself.com

Joe Sixpack · 10-15-2002, 02:59 AM

From what I understand, Libertarians are against the concept of publicly funded education. So lets just say Joe Blow and Mary Blow have a couple of kids but can't afford to pay for a private school education. Anyway, even if they could afford it, I guess you can't force them to spend it on their childrens education. Does that mean that education for children would become optional rather than compulsory as it is now?

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Particularly the Libertarians on the board.

richard123 · 10-15-2002, 03:10 AM

I think you'va managed about 30% of the story. Let me add another 10%:

"Libertarians wish to eliminate public funding of education, but would allow public funding for impoverished children if private scholarship funds didn't cover their costs."

Joe Sixpack · 10-15-2002, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richard123
I think you'va managed about 30% of the story. Let me add another 10%:

"Libertarians wish to eliminate public funding of education, but would allow public funding for impoverished children if private scholarship funds didn't cover their costs."

Where is that quote from?

DarkJedi · 10-15-2002, 03:16 AM

yo momma

nastigirl · 10-15-2002, 03:17 AM

You make it sound as tho you're assuming the Libertarian platform is against "structured" compulsory education at all, that if given a choice between spending money on a private school or sending them to a publicly funded school they don't care about their kids' educations. They don't have anything to do with one another tho

Libertarians aren't against education whether compulsory, optional, funded or private. What they're against is the state government and/or federal government imposing on the people's right to choose *anything* in this country. And given the option of sponsored school vs private school, the Libertarian would most likely take the option and choose home schooling...not because they're against the economic picture of any school but because home schooling affords a personal, one on one, focused education that would automatically incorporate *real life* alongside the ABC's.

richard123 · 10-15-2002, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack

Where is that quote from?

... and there's more....

http://www.educationnews.org/cgi-bin...t.pl?read=5443

ADL Colin · 10-15-2002, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack
From what I understand, Libertarians are against the concept of publicly funded education. So lets just say Joe Blow and Mary Blow have a couple of kids but can't afford to pay for a private school education. Anyway, even if they could afford it, I guess you can't force them to spend it on their childrens education. Does that mean that education for children would become optional rather than compulsory as it is now?

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Particularly the Libertarians on the board.

Poor people are stupid anyway. Haven't you read "The Bell Curve"?

Joe Sixpack · 10-15-2002, 03:22 AM

But surely, under Libertarianism you couldn't force anyone to spend money to educate their children. Maybe they want a new car or a holiday to Disneyland instead.

<IMX> · 10-15-2002, 03:25 AM

Hmm.
I think what Libertarians favor is a free market education system, the education system would still be funded by tax dollars.

Instead of going specifcally to fund public schools, Joe and Mary Blow would have the options of using tax credits to purchase tuition at any public or private school of their choice. So, public and private schools could "compete" for your educational tax dollars.

I agree with Colin though, in practice the tax credits do not provide Joe and Mary Blow with enough money to afford a "premium" private school. So, they can only afford parochial or public schools. I dislike on the grounds that essentially the state funds religious instruction.

For all the religious zealots who support the idea, I laugh heartily. They will be the first to line up against the Islamic, Nation of Islam and other non-christian religious schools that will form to take advantage of the money.

Also, I think there are economies of scale to public education. Although I am a Libertarian, I also believe that the vast majority of people are stupid. Even though they have a right to do what they want, the vast majority will make stupid decisions. I don't think Joe Blow should be able to make a decsion that adversely affects Joe Blow jr.

ADL Colin · 10-15-2002, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by <IMX>
Hmm.

I agree with Colin though

I think that was a mistake.

<IMX> · 10-15-2002, 03:28 AM

Colin--
Hahaha it wouldn't be my first

eroswebmaster · 10-15-2002, 04:04 AM

schools in vegas suck

Mr.Fiction · 10-15-2002, 12:49 PM

Libertarians like to talk the talk, but they generally vote Republican.

The day that they start taking their own party seriously enough to vote for a Libertarian candidate is the day the world might start taking them seriously. Until then, it's all talk.

Cal · 10-15-2002, 01:01 PM

Libertarians are in favor of overhauling the US constitution. School vouchers violate this country's laws, regardless of what the right-leaning Supreme Court has to say.

The idea that home school gives you a taste of 'real life' is ludicrous. Real life involves interacting with other humans, not only your immediately family. Not to mention the increasingly low number of stay-at-home parents who can deliver a proper education.

Americans, as evidenced by the recent events in the Middle East, are always eager to ignore current problems and move on to new excesses. Tax cuts, school vouchers, we'd rather ignore that 12 million people fell below the poverty line in the last 2 years, or that tens of millions of people can't afford health care. But hey, we're independent, we should be able to do WHATEVER we want, noone can tell us what to do!

This country's citizens make me ill.

C.

kmanrox · 10-15-2002, 01:03 PM

Do you really think there are any librarians on this board?

;-)

jimmyf · 10-15-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kmanrox
Do you really think there are any librarians on this board?

;-)

1 or 2 maybe. Am inclined the think Mr.Fiction is a closet 1.

Mr.Fiction · 10-15-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmyf
1 or 2 maybe. Am inclined the think Mr.Fiction is a closet 1.

I'd actually prefer Harry Browne over some of the current Democrats and Republicans.

jimmyf · 10-15-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

I'd actually prefer Harry Browne over some of the current Democrats and Republicans.

Well I guess I have to put on my thinking cap now. Maybe Mr. Fiction is not a closet Libertarian. Heck maybe he's not Democrat, Republican or Libertarian. Could be something like me a little of all the above.

ColKurtz · 10-15-2002, 01:37 PM

I would support vouchers for this reason. The public school system is a mess and many of the kids dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit.

Lets say in the corner of the classroom is a smart little boy/girl who has a parent or parents that really care and they are trying to learn but half the class is unruly and prevent them from learning.

As well as the curriculum is kept very easy otherwise half the kids would never graduate.

I say that kid should have an opportunity to get a good education. That kid would go on to be a solid tax paying citizen.

And for the kids who dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit, well "The world needs ditchdiggers too".

jimmyf · 10-15-2002, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ColKurtz
I would support vouchers for this reason. The public school system is a mess and many of the kids dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit.

Lets say in the corner of the classroom is a smart little boy/girl who has a parent or parents that really care and they are trying to learn but half the class is unruly and prevent them from learning.

As well as the curriculum is kept very easy otherwise half the kids would never graduate.

I say that kid should have an opportunity to get a good education. That kid would go on to be a solid tax paying citizen.

And for the kids who dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit, well "The world needs ditchdiggers too".

Am far from an expert on education. I also had no ideal the school's now days (or have been for years) out come based. 2 or 3 years ago i was talking to the guy that shared a building with me in the Bay Area, he was in his early 30's me in my 50's. So this out come stuff was going on when he was in school. Some of the stuff he told I thought.. what the hell is this. I just walked off thinking, all the supposed experts saying this and that is wrong and they don't know there ass from a hole in the ground.

Rich J. · 10-15-2002, 01:56 PM

I am a left-Libertarian... meaning I believe the government should stay out of our personal lives but still handle most of the financial matters that they currently do. I for one believe that schools should be government funded. I just don't think anyone should be able to tell me what I can and can't whack off too, listen to in my car, etc. If your not sure where you stand you can take a test to see if you are a Libertarian -> HERE. Will also tell you if your left, right, or center.

T-Rav · 10-15-2002, 02:14 PM

I voted for Harry Browne in the last two elections. I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a Libertarian. I'm more of an anarchist...at least today. I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.

I didn't read anything above that leads me to believe that any of you know anything about the Libertarian Party. That link someone posted was not sponsored by the Libertarian Party. It was a post from a freakin' msg board similar to this one...basically a bunch of people full of hot air (myself included).

I have never heard that Libertarians are in favor of "home schooling". They may be in favor privately funded education, but that is a far cry from "home schooling".

Cal, where the fuck did you get the idea that Libertarians are in favor or "overhauling the US constitution"? What in the hell are you talking about? Show me anywhere in the constitution that it mentions anything about public schooling or vouchers. I can assure you, that you won't find it anywhere.

You may want to check out this link: http://www.libertarian.org

you'll probably have better luck reading up on it, than spouting unfounded opinions about something you know very little about.

Cal · 10-15-2002, 02:56 PM

Travis,

The government has been put in place in this country (as it is in every other civilized nation) to legislate and give the populace a behavioral compass.

I am in favor of free will, and the rights of expression and anything that does not infringe on the rights of others. But by giving people 'free reign' to run their own lives legally, it does result in anarchy, as you mentioned.

I am a humanist, which puts me at odds with Libertarians. It is our resposibility as humans to further society, not our own selfish goals. Libertarians represent all that is naive, greedy, and wrong with American society, in my opinion. It is the same attitude which is undermining our international and domestic policy, and turning the world against us.

Maybe you're right, maybe we need some sort of anarchistic revolt in the US to bring us back to reality. Unfortunately I see the undercurrents shifting more towards fascism than anarchy. Either way, Libertarianism will always remain an extreme party full of extremists. Note how it is the opposite of Authoritarian on their own website. You may hate right-wing extremists or radical liberals, but you are the equivalent counterpoint to fascism.

C.

candidpublishinginc · 10-15-2002, 05:20 PM

The Libertarian party is against any short of censorship...including the censorship of adult material. They are what the Republicans SHOULD be. Republicans claim to be big on limited government but then they go using tax dollars to go after "obscene" material.

Granted I don't agree with everything they have to say, but I'd prefer them over the Democrats and Republicans. Both parties seem to be big on big government for their own agendas and I hate it.

Rex · 10-15-2002, 05:56 PM

Shit I misread this subject...I thought you said it was a quick question for lesbians and I was interested

MarkTiarra · 10-15-2002, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cal
Libertarians are in favor of overhauling the US constitution. School vouchers violate this country's laws, regardless of what the right-leaning Supreme Court has to say.
C.

My understanding of Libertarianism is more along the lines that they wish to actually stick to the Constitution. What's happened in the country especially over the last 75 years has been a gradual movement away from the Constitution. The two party system has given rise to so many laws and acts that blatently fly in the face of the Constitution.

Anyone in this biz who's followed FTC actions will see how badly the idea of the 4th through 6th ammendments (see http://memory.loc.gov/const/bor.html) has been trounced upon.

I won't go so far as to say the Constitution is dead (especially the 1st ammendment which manages to stand tall still), but it's been drastically worn around the edges a bit at a time.

kevinl · 10-16-2002, 02:21 AM

Public Education is shit. It is incredible what we spend on it via the US government and what little you get back in terms of knowledge.I think they are basically daycare centers to take the kids when you are at work. How do you continue to pass a child on that can't read or write?

Cal · 10-16-2002, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkTiarra

My understanding of Libertarianism is more along the lines that they wish to actually stick to the Constitution. What's happened in the country especially over the last 75 years has been a gradual movement away from the Constitution. The two party system has given rise to so many laws and acts that blatently fly in the face of the Constitution.

Anyone in this biz who's followed FTC actions will see how badly the idea of the 4th through 6th ammendments (see http://memory.loc.gov/const/bor.html) has been trounced upon.

I won't go so far as to say the Constitution is dead (especially the 1st ammendment which manages to stand tall still), but it's been drastically worn around the edges a bit at a time.

My main gripes are the 'free market' approach and the personal autonomy at all costs attitudes. Okay objectivism annoys me as well, but I'm sure Ayn Rand didn't know how ridiculous her followers would become after her death.

There are some services which should not be privatized, basic needs such as electricity, water, health care, food, housing. There are degrees of course; I don't want a welfare state. It may be an unpopular view, but if my paying the government an additional few percent in taxes gets the bums off my streets, gets the kids back into schools and out of gangs (or trenchcoat mafias), and improves the standard of living for my fellow citizens, well to me THAT is true patriotism, and equality.

C.

jas1552 · 10-16-2002, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cal
Libertarians are in favor of overhauling the US constitution. School vouchers violate this country's laws, regardless of what the right-leaning Supreme Court has to say.
C.

If the government gives the money to the parents and not the religious schoool then how is that a violation of the US constitution?

T-Rav · 10-16-2002, 07:43 AM

Cal, I respect your opinions and you sound exactly like my best friend. He likes the hands off approach to government legislating morality, but he tends to lean towards socialism for many health care etc. Basically he wants to have his pot and smoke it too.

It is an interesting idea, but not very realistic. No more or less realistic than the Libertarian party. I just don't want to be fucked with, I don't want to be forced to take care of anyone, and I don't trust the Republicans or the Democrats with my money or my freedoms.

Let's talk about Lesbianism...

10-15-2002, 02:59 AM	#1
Joe Sixpack So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,793	A question for Libertarians From what I understand, Libertarians are against the concept of publicly funded education. So lets just say Joe Blow and Mary Blow have a couple of kids but can't afford to pay for a private school education. Anyway, even if they could afford it, I guess you can't force them to spend it on their childrens education. Does that mean that education for children would become optional rather than compulsory as it is now? I'd be interested in your thoughts. Particularly the Libertarians on the board.

10-15-2002, 03:17 AM	#5
nastigirl Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 26	You make it sound as tho you're assuming the Libertarian platform is against "structured" compulsory education at all, that if given a choice between spending money on a private school or sending them to a publicly funded school they don't care about their kids' educations. They don't have anything to do with one another tho Libertarians aren't against education whether compulsory, optional, funded or private. What they're against is the state government and/or federal government imposing on the people's right to choose anything in this country. And given the option of sponsored school vs private school, the Libertarian would most likely take the option and choose home schooling...not because they're against the economic picture of any school but because home schooling affords a personal, one on one, focused education that would automatically incorporate real life alongside the ABC's. __________________ ==================<br> from a <br> ~Nikki

10-15-2002, 03:25 AM	#9
<IMX> Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2,728	Hmm. I think what Libertarians favor is a free market education system, the education system would still be funded by tax dollars. Instead of going specifcally to fund public schools, Joe and Mary Blow would have the options of using tax credits to purchase tuition at any public or private school of their choice. So, public and private schools could "compete" for your educational tax dollars. I agree with Colin though, in practice the tax credits do not provide Joe and Mary Blow with enough money to afford a "premium" private school. So, they can only afford parochial or public schools. I dislike on the grounds that essentially the state funds religious instruction. For all the religious zealots who support the idea, I laugh heartily. They will be the first to line up against the Islamic, Nation of Islam and other non-christian religious schools that will form to take advantage of the money. Also, I think there are economies of scale to public education. Although I am a Libertarian, I also believe that the vast majority of people are stupid. Even though they have a right to do what they want, the vast majority will make stupid decisions. I don't think Joe Blow should be able to make a decsion that adversely affects Joe Blow jr. __________________ $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$ $$$ Check out 10 FREE TRIAL SALES equals 1 FREE LAP TOP ! $$$

10-15-2002, 03:28 AM	#11
<IMX> Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2,728	Colin-- Hahaha it wouldn't be my first __________________ $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$ $$$ Check out 10 FREE TRIAL SALES equals 1 FREE LAP TOP ! $$$

10-15-2002, 04:04 AM	#12
eroswebmaster March 1st, 2003 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seat 4 @ Venetian Poker Room Posts: 20,295	schools in vegas suck __________________ For rent - ICQ 127-027-910 Click here for more details

10-15-2002, 03:10 AM	#2
richard123 Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 491	I think you'va managed about 30% of the story. Let me add another 10%: "Libertarians wish to eliminate public funding of education, but would allow public funding for impoverished children if private scholarship funds didn't cover their costs."

10-15-2002, 03:16 AM	#4
DarkJedi No Refunds Issued. Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: GFY Posts: 28,300	yo momma

10-15-2002, 03:22 AM	#8
Joe Sixpack So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,793	But surely, under Libertarianism you couldn't force anyone to spend money to educate their children. Maybe they want a new car or a holiday to Disneyland instead.

10-15-2002, 12:49 PM	#13
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Libertarians like to talk the talk, but they generally vote Republican. The day that they start taking their own party seriously enough to vote for a Libertarian candidate is the day the world might start taking them seriously. Until then, it's all talk.

10-15-2002, 01:01 PM	#14
Cal Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 72	Libertarians are in favor of overhauling the US constitution. School vouchers violate this country's laws, regardless of what the right-leaning Supreme Court has to say. The idea that home school gives you a taste of 'real life' is ludicrous. Real life involves interacting with other humans, not only your immediately family. Not to mention the increasingly low number of stay-at-home parents who can deliver a proper education. Americans, as evidenced by the recent events in the Middle East, are always eager to ignore current problems and move on to new excesses. Tax cuts, school vouchers, we'd rather ignore that 12 million people fell below the poverty line in the last 2 years, or that tens of millions of people can't afford health care. But hey, we're independent, we should be able to do WHATEVER we want, noone can tell us what to do! This country's citizens make me ill. C.

10-15-2002, 01:03 PM	#15
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	Do you really think there are any librarians on this board? ;-) __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

10-15-2002, 01:37 PM	#19
ColKurtz So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambodia Posts: 596	I would support vouchers for this reason. The public school system is a mess and many of the kids dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit. Lets say in the corner of the classroom is a smart little boy/girl who has a parent or parents that really care and they are trying to learn but half the class is unruly and prevent them from learning. As well as the curriculum is kept very easy otherwise half the kids would never graduate. I say that kid should have an opportunity to get a good education. That kid would go on to be a solid tax paying citizen. And for the kids who dont give a shit and have parents that dont give a shit, well "The world needs ditchdiggers too".

10-15-2002, 01:56 PM	#21
Rich J. Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 589	I am a left-Libertarian... meaning I believe the government should stay out of our personal lives but still handle most of the financial matters that they currently do. I for one believe that schools should be government funded. I just don't think anyone should be able to tell me what I can and can't whack off too, listen to in my car, etc. If your not sure where you stand you can take a test to see if you are a Libertarian -> HERE. Will also tell you if your left, right, or center. __________________ Adult Web Marketing Specialist with 10 years of Industry Experience - CONTACT ME

10-15-2002, 02:14 PM	#22
T-Rav Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Austin Posts: 64	I voted for Harry Browne in the last two elections. I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a Libertarian. I'm more of an anarchist...at least today. I'll probably change my mind tomorrow. I didn't read anything above that leads me to believe that any of you know anything about the Libertarian Party. That link someone posted was not sponsored by the Libertarian Party. It was a post from a freakin' msg board similar to this one...basically a bunch of people full of hot air (myself included). I have never heard that Libertarians are in favor of "home schooling". They may be in favor privately funded education, but that is a far cry from "home schooling". Cal, where the fuck did you get the idea that Libertarians are in favor or "overhauling the US constitution"? What in the hell are you talking about? Show me anywhere in the constitution that it mentions anything about public schooling or vouchers. I can assure you, that you won't find it anywhere. You may want to check out this link: http://www.libertarian.org you'll probably have better luck reading up on it, than spouting unfounded opinions about something you know very little about. __________________ Travis

10-15-2002, 02:56 PM	#23
Cal Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 72	Travis, The government has been put in place in this country (as it is in every other civilized nation) to legislate and give the populace a behavioral compass. I am in favor of free will, and the rights of expression and anything that does not infringe on the rights of others. But by giving people 'free reign' to run their own lives legally, it does result in anarchy, as you mentioned. I am a humanist, which puts me at odds with Libertarians. It is our resposibility as humans to further society, not our own selfish goals. Libertarians represent all that is naive, greedy, and wrong with American society, in my opinion. It is the same attitude which is undermining our international and domestic policy, and turning the world against us. Maybe you're right, maybe we need some sort of anarchistic revolt in the US to bring us back to reality. Unfortunately I see the undercurrents shifting more towards fascism than anarchy. Either way, Libertarianism will always remain an extreme party full of extremists. Note how it is the opposite of Authoritarian on their own website. You may hate right-wing extremists or radical liberals, but you are the equivalent counterpoint to fascism. C.

10-15-2002, 05:20 PM	#24
candidpublishinginc Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Bedford, NH 03110 Posts: 707	The Libertarian party is against any short of censorship...including the censorship of adult material. They are what the Republicans SHOULD be. Republicans claim to be big on limited government but then they go using tax dollars to go after "obscene" material. Granted I don't agree with everything they have to say, but I'd prefer them over the Democrats and Republicans. Both parties seem to be big on big government for their own agendas and I hate it. __________________ Candid Clicks Earn up to 4 cents a click for blind link traffic! NO CONVERSIONS, NO BS!

10-15-2002, 05:56 PM	#25
Rex Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: ohio Posts: 2,241	Shit I misread this subject...I thought you said it was a quick question for lesbians and I was interested __________________ I don't own RexMag anymore.

10-16-2002, 02:21 AM	#27
kevinl Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: US Posts: 261	Public Education is shit. It is incredible what we spend on it via the US government and what little you get back in terms of knowledge.I think they are basically daycare centers to take the kids when you are at work. How do you continue to pass a child on that can't read or write? __________________ kevinl

10-16-2002, 07:43 AM	#30
T-Rav Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Austin Posts: 64	Cal, I respect your opinions and you sound exactly like my best friend. He likes the hands off approach to government legislating morality, but he tends to lean towards socialism for many health care etc. Basically he wants to have his pot and smoke it too. It is an interesting idea, but not very realistic. No more or less realistic than the Libertarian party. I just don't want to be fucked with, I don't want to be forced to take care of anyone, and I don't trust the Republicans or the Democrats with my money or my freedoms. Let's talk about Lesbianism... __________________ Travis