pimplink

http://racetraitor.org

Very interesting website by Ivan Ignatieff, the author of "How the Irish Became White."

Mind expandingand ultimately, mind blowing analysis of the power of race in contemporary American culture.

Here's a sample:

The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race, which means no more and no less than abolishing the privileges of the white skin. Until that task is accomplished, even partial reform will prove elusive, because white influence permeates every issue, domestic and foreign, in US society.



My spin: I'm not sure the problem is so much race as it is the insatiable human desire for social hierarchy. It seems we are hardwired to 1) make social disctinctions and 2) read in socially important judgments based on those distinctions. If this is the case, regardless of whether "race" is abolished or not, humanity will always find a dividing line based on physical,mental, or cultural markers on which to exercise its judgment. Historically, we've used class and religion, among others, in addition to race. I'm not sure destroying the race classification will sole anything.

UnseenWorld

The geneticists tell us that RACE is a social fiction. In other words, there is more genetic variation between individuals inside the racial groups than there is between the racial groups themselves.

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ColKurtz

Asians, Blacks, Mexicans, Arabs reproduce like rabbits so its only a matter of time.

And of course white women who betray their race and create oreos.

Shoplifter

Fluffy kittens are fun to play with!

Joe Sixpack

Uh oh... I can hear the stampede.

pimplink

Ignatieff's "How the Irish Became White" argued that it has only been RECENTLY that the concept of "whiteness" reached a historically marginalized group as the Irish. Indeed, from the 1600's to the early 1900's the Irish were looked down upon by the established White Anglo Saxon Protestant elite. Ignatieff's argument is that White americans' gradually lost their tribalism [ie., people are classified as either Scotts-Irish, German American, Scandinavian American, or Anglo-American] to subscribe to the social construction of "White American" and the privileges and responsibilities this classificaton brings.

Being "White" has less to do with skin color than it does with social standing in the US social hierarchy.

Even if these arguments are true, I'm sure that "white" is a more contested reality than Ignatieff would care to admit. Indeed,
the trend is to judge people based on their level of MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN ASSIMILATION. Hence, even if you are racially white if you do not subscribe to certain middle class values you are "trailer trash" "white trash" or some other derogatory term.

I think the impact of class and the rise of multiculturalism is really the weakness of this "White" ideology argument as proposed by Ignatieff.


Interesting stuff.

pimplink

His website actually concedes this. However, the focus is on "race" as a social reality. As in a social marker that gives certain privileges and imparts certain limitations.

pimplink

If you actually paid attention to the site and to the articles, you'd note that "biological" notions of race are not at issue. Instead, it focuses on the social creation of "race" as imparting certain privileges to certain people and the social consequences of that.

Bobo

The guy who runs the website is a moron.

On a seperate note whites and blacks are the smallest 'racial' groups on earth. Asians and Indians make up the largest groups. Russia is the most populated 'white' nation and all African nations are quite small with respect to population.

Bobo

Originally posted by Shoplifter
"If it wasn't for white people the rest of you would all still be chucking spears at each other in the dark. "

I agree - though I'd have to be more specific. I think this would be the case if British white people hadn't been around.

pimplink

Here's a quote from the site that answers the question re what exactly they are railing against:

"To answer your question, we are not against anyone for the color of his or her skin. In our view, whiteness is not a matter of skin color but of social status. We are against conferring social privileges on people because of their color. We believe that to eliminate the privileges of whiteness is to abolish the white race, and that is what we want to do. To offer a parallel, we are against monarchy, but that does not mean we want to kill the king or queen. It simply means we want to get rid of inherited titles and the rest of the trappings of royalty. "


The problem with this thinking is that the sooner you eliminate using skin color as an indicia of cultural "rank" then the indicia will attach to something else--eg , country of origin? height? eye color?

Maybe he's just naive? or too idealistic?

beemk

down with whitey!

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pimplink

Im not so sure if this is historically accurate. When the Romans arrived near Londinium [London now] they complained that the people of the British Isles were "savages" barbarians. However, they did see the wealth of the British Isles and, under Emperor Claudius, succeeded in conquering England [of course, not completely....that's why they built Hadrian's Wall to keep out the "ultrasavage" Scots]. The roots of "British" culture really is an amalgam of Roman law, Saxon culture, and Norman feudalism.

ColKurtz

The thing alot of black people don't understand is that the very politicians and leaders they support are the people that keep them down.

They are a voting pawn for democrats and lackys for jesse jackson types to make money by convincing them all their problems are because of whitey.

These leaders hold them to no accountability because they need their votes or support.

So bad cycles like out of wedlock babies, drugs, crime, welfare, will continue and continue.

How can koreans come to this country with just the shirts on their back and start businesses in south central. They dont suffer from the same institutionalization.

pimplink

This particular post reminded me of one of the best books I've read in a while. Very eye opening look at Jesse Jackson:

http://www.conservativebookclub.com/...?prod_cd=C5949

untitled

Wow some of those articles explain how i've been feeling for the last year...

interesting bit here from http://racetraitor.org/massacre.html :

"The recent spate of school shootings are not a product of the activities of white supremacist groups, as liberals like the CHD imply. If anything, the shootings have shaken up whites' sense of security rather than bolstering white supremacy. Even if these kids had targeted Black and Latino students (and only one of the fifteen people murdered was Black), the consequence of Harris and Klebold's act is to make whites feel they can no longer be secure even in suburbia or rural America. We should all be concerned about the consequences this insecurity could bring down upon all of us."

Maybe this is why we got this sniper killing people near DC?

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Rocky

make the world the a more colorful place to live

kill the crackers

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Joe Sixpack

Because the blacks in your country have put up with hundreds of years of slavery and hundreds of years of being called "******". Not to mention all those lynchings.

ColKurtz

oic. So because their great great grandparents were slaves on southern plantations that means they can never amount to anything?

Asians, Irish, Italians etc were all treated like dirt in this country at one time or another.

chodadog

You're kidding yourself if you believe that has changed.

Joe Sixpack

If you are too thick to know the difference then perhaps you'd better stay in Cambodia.

The Asians, Irish and Italians were never slaves nor were they lynched. You have to pay the piper eventually and your society is now paying the price for slavery. Karma's a bitch isn't it?

chodadog

Weren't Australians still shooting aboriginies for sport back in the early 60's, or late 50's? I love the way most Australians feel like they're somehow this fantastic country that hasn't done a thing wrong.

[Labret]

The Irish were amongst the first to be used as slaves. But as they could escape and blend in with the population, they were hard to keep as slaves. Same with their attempts to enslave the natives. They would just escape and go back home. Africans, on the other hand, did not blend in, and had nowhere to go.

Asians? They built 90% of our railroads in the west. And they were slaves.

Rocky

yup, Labret hits it bang on the money

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Joe Sixpack

When did I say Australia hasn't done a thing wrong? That wasn't the issue being discussed. Besides, Australias treatment of our indigenous people is similar to America's treatment of its indigenous people -- the native Americans.

Joe Sixpack

Fair enough. But surely the difference is that the Negro was actually taken from Africa by force? Were Asians and Irish actually sold and traded as slaves? I wasn't aware of this.

[Labret]

African slaves were sold by other Africans. What better way to get rid of your enemy than to sell him to the white guys?

The Irish I believe were mostly taken from prisons, not actively bought and sold. I dont think the practice of using the Irish lasted long enough to establish that sort of system. Same with the Natives. Taken by force but were not used long enough to establish the same sort of slave auction system later required by large scale use of slave labor.

The Brits also got in on the action with large scale indentured servitude. But the crown put the smackdown on that practice as lots of poor Brits were willing to get in on that action.

The Asians, I am pretty sure, were owned by other Asians, who worked for the white guys. How and where they got their Asian slaves is beyond me. But judging from how asians have historically treated each other, I would not doubt for a minute that they were not bought and sold. Esp the females slaves.

Joe Sixpack

Well shit hey, you learn something new every day. Sounds like every minority was fair game.

How about lynchings? Did they lynch anyone else other than the Negro?

ADL Colin

Same thing with some species of dogs and yet it is meaningful to distinguish "German Shepard" from "Greyhound" and one can do it just by looking.

Also, there is more variation within a certain chimp species than between that chimp species and a bonobo chimp - yet researchers can distinguish that difference too. You can even tell the difference by behavior (Bonobos fuck a lot).

It's interesting that the "race doesn't exist" argument from genetics compare long chains of DNA not caring what anything codes for. In practice, when we determine someone's race - we look at specific features (not all) - skin color, hair, eye shape, and a other things. Yes, of course race is a construct like mammal or reptile. What's the point? Many of our labels derive from human experience and desire to categorize the world and nothing else. We create the concept of biological class (mammal, reptile, amphibian) and yet not every creature fits neatly into the classification system.

If we know what genetic markers code for eye shape, skin color, and the rest of those things that we use to determine race - it seems to me we could create a genetic test that determines racial profiles according to the standard wisdom.

Anyway, if you tell a Jewish person there is no such thing as racem expect a fight!

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ADL Colin

None of the blacks currently living in my country have put up with slavery.

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[Labret]

Duuno really. I think lynchings were like a trend. I know the practice was used, but the south seemed particularly fond of using that terror tactic. Even up into the 1930s.

The Russians were very cruel to their native slaves when they ran the show in Alaska. A game that they would play involved lining up a bunch of Aleuts and seeing how many Aleuts they could pass a musketball through. Typically I believe it was 3 to 4 1/2.

chodadog

You never <i>said</i> it, but you seem to love pointing out past wrong doings of the United States, when, during a time when the likes of Martin Luther King Jr were protesting for equality in the United States, your father/granfather's generation (not him in particular, but given your attitude, it wouldn't surprise me) were out shooting Aboriginies during the hunting season (yeah, they actually had hunting seasons).

Joe Sixpack

Well that would be because it is difficult to discuss Australian history with Americans who wouldn't even be able to point out Australia on a world map.

PS I'd appreciate a link to back up your claim.

chodadog

You've completely missed the point. All you do is point out other nations' wrong doings. And you say it in a way, that implies you seem to think your shit doesn't stink. I live in Australia, and sure, i think it's a great place, but this country has done as many fucked up things as any other Western nation.

Joe Sixpack

I never said it hasn't. In fact, the issue has never been discussed and it is YOU who are reading all this into what i say.

And like I said, give me a link to back up your claim of Aboriginal hunting season. You put up or shut your fucking hole.

[Labret]

Jew isnt a race, but thats a whole nother story.

Race doesnt exist.

You can use your genetics to prove the existence of specific climatic adaptions in an individual, but thats all it does. If you want to base "race" upon a certain set of specific climatic adaptions, you are going to run into problems as the particular adaptions you choose to base your "race" upon sometimes overlap. If you are going to say that the asian race is madeup of those with inca bones and folded incisors, that may be all fine and dandy, but there are European groups that also contain folded incisors, and other populations that do not.

You certainly cant be judging everyting based upon skin color.

Rocky

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ADL Colin

"Race doesnt exist."

Sure, it's a construct. It's one thing to say that the definition of race is ambiguous but it's another thing entirely to say it doesn't exist. I can say there is no such thing as a dog breed, furniture, fruit or whatever else I want because it is difficult to perfectly define anything with any classification system such that everyone agrees upon the definition.

Maybe there's no such thing as a fruit. There is a word for fruit and we have an understanding of what fruit means, but the definition is not perfect nor is it all-encompassing.

What is a fruit? What is a vegetable? You make some definition and then we argue over whether
a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. Well, there is an interesting history of the tomato. Botanically it has been one thing and legally another (for taxation purposes). So if you are talking to a botanist, go with fruit and if you are speaking to a US customs inspector I recommend "vegetable".

We can dig deeper and make classification even more difficult. Botanically, a cucumber is a fruit too (ask a botanist! Or try google). Now we're ina real mess. We can really fight about this cucumber stuff. Maybe it is best to say there is no such thing as fruits and vegetables. At this point, I guess we should conclude that fruit doesn't exist.


Anyway, we can do this for hundreds of definitions. Define a word and then we can argue endlessly about whether some particular item is a member of that word. Well,w e could, but I'll get bored pretty fast.

Is a milk crate "furniture"? In college, I thought so. Makes a nice bookshelf.

There's no such thing as a mammal either. It's just a word we use to describe animals with certain features. So what? That *IS* reality to us.

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Rocky

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ADL Colin

OK, I really LOL'd. Damned French.

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pimplink

Now for the real tough question: In the age of Multiculturalism, where we are urged to "look past differences" and view all cultures as being "equal" is it really a bad thing to JUDGE people based on their cultural/racial grouping? Note that this does not preclude knowing INDIVIDUALS from certain groups but is it necessarily RACIST or BIGOTED for a person to make statistical judgments?

Why is it "racist" when a white business man avoids the "bad" part of town whereas a black cabbie is NOT racist for not wanting to go the same part of town? [this example actually occurred in New York]


This is another point, I believe, where Ignatieff's thesis of "white privilege abolition" falls apart.

Bobo

Pimp, you're questions really seem contrived.

Anyway, it's not a priviledge for anybody to go to the side of town where walking the streets is unsafe, regardless of your color. If a black guy thinks that putting his life at risk is a privilege, he's lacking brain cells.

ADL Colin

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=racist

rac·ism

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

--------

I believe that black people are faster on average than white people.

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ADL Colin

I thought it was a great question.

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Bobo

I don't think it is. If a white guy wants to avoid the 'bad' side of town that DOES NOT make him a racist. Why would that make him a racist? Avoiding danger doesn't make one a racist.

pimplink

But that was the big brouhaha in New York when white cab company owners were saying that they do not want to have their cabbies in Harlem or Bed Stuy because of the high rates of robberies and shootings. They were then labelled as racists when, in fact, their own black cabbies insist on the ban staying in effect.

The same patterns are playing out re pizza delivery in some urban areas.

The question I posed may seem contrived to you but its really a rhetorical question--phrased in a way to show how ridiculous the notion of "race" is playing out in contemporary American culture.

mjrools23

me too..and can jump higher too

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Joe Sixpack

And don't tell me... they can eat more fried chicken than white people.

mjrools23

nah..probably that japanese guy that keeps winning the hot dog eating contest

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ADL Colin

Noooo. You have it mixed up. Black people LIKE fried chicken more than white people. Collared greens too.

Bill "El Wingador" Simmons, a white dude, owns the record for eating chicken wings. 143 in 30 minutes.

I've said enough. Some of my best friends are white and they like chicken too. I don't want to offend them.

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