Flat Tax System

[Socks]

I saw a guy on TV last night talking in support of a flat tax system, which they use in Hong Kong, Russia, etc.

Basically in a flat tax system, there are no special interest groups that can get money from the tax system. They all get cut off.

Everyone pays the same, basic, low tax rate.

It would take literally 5 minutes to file taxes every year, on a single page, no matter how much you make.

There are no deductions, for anything, even charitable donations. They contend with more money available you didn't pay in tax, people would donate more, and that they don't donate just for tax benefits either.

It would also absolutely destroy the accounting industry, but that's good for everyone except the accountants. They would do other meaningful things.

Also it would make business way easier, and allow people to focus on growth rather than tax strategies, etc.

The rich would also end up paying more probably, since they get so damned ridiculous in hiding/sheltering themselves from paying taxes.

Any thoughts? Ever heard of this before?

[woj]

Are you sure you are not thinking of "fair tax" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax ?

[crockett]

Yes.. many politicians have promised it.. Bush Jr even promised it in his campaign but funny how quickly he forgot about it after he's elected.

In short it's the only "fair" tax system, because everyone pays their equal share of the tax burden. Kinda like sales tax, everyone pays their equal share.

That's exactly why it will never happen in the US and is nothing more than a campaign promise. Big corporations and the rich don't have to pay their "fair" share because they get all kinds of tax breaks. Taxes are simply for the middle class because that's who pays most of them meanwhile most of the income is made by few.

There is also an entire industry think H&R Block ect.ect.. that would be put out of business by a flat tax system. So in short it's a campaign promise that is never gonna happen.

[Vendot]

Many countries are planning to implement or have already implemented a flat tax.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...Tax-Reform.php

[BradM]

Flat tax will never pass here.
We only like bloated complex systems.

IRS = out of business if flat tax comes.

[slapass]

Russia has several ways around it and people use them.

[BV]

I'd rather have a national sales tax instead of a flat tax. That way you can save all your money and only get taxed on what you spend and not what you earn.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by BV

I'd rather have a national sales tax instead of a flat tax. That way you can save all your money and only get taxed on what you spend and not what you earn.

The problem or cool thing depending on who you are, is that poor people would be taxed a lot higher and rich people a lot lower then they are now. Add in that it would destroy tons of small businesses and it pretty much makes no sense.

[MandyBlake]

i like the flat tax idea, but not the fair tax one.

[tony286]

The fairtax has too many holes but the flat tax is fair.Everyone pays their share no bullshit.

[Ethersync]

Originally Posted by BV

I'd rather have a national sales tax instead of a flat tax. That way you can save all your money and only get taxed on what you spend and not what you earn.

The biggest problem with this is that if we get a national sales tax (i.e. VAT tax aka "Consumption Tax") then governments tend to get greedy and want get you from both ends so we'd end up with VAT + Income Tax like most (all?) of Europe has

[Ethersync]

Originally Posted by slapass

The problem or cool thing depending on who you are, is that poor people would be taxed a lot higher and rich people a lot lower then they are now. Add in that it would destroy tons of small businesses and it pretty much makes no sense.

QFT.

In my opinion the only "fair" tax is no tax

[Rochard]

I say we hav a cut off......

Everyone below $200k a year pays notta.
Everyone aboves $200k a year pays 30%.

No deductions for anyone for any reason. Period.

I I mean, the way it is right now works fine for me. On paper I don't make a dime, and my company everything. I didn't pay jack shit in taxes this year for sure.

[BV]

Originally Posted by slapass

The problem or cool thing depending on who you are, is that poor people would be taxed a lot higher and rich people a lot lower then they are now. Add in that it would destroy tons of small businesses and it pretty much makes no sense.

Poor people wouldn't be taxed much at all because if you're poor you don't have money to buy that much. And rich people would be taxed more than they are now, if they spend it.

[BV]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I say we hav a cut off......

Everyone below $200k a year pays notta.
Everyone aboves $200k a year pays 30%.

No deductions for anyone for any reason. Period.

I I mean, the way it is right now works fine for me. On paper I don't make a dime, and my company everything. I didn't pay jack shit in taxes this year for sure.

if you are not paying taxes you are not making any money or you are breaking the law

[slapass]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I say we hav a cut off......

Everyone below $200k a year pays notta.
Everyone aboves $200k a year pays 30%.

No deductions for anyone for any reason. Period.

I I mean, the way it is right now works fine for me. On paper I don't make a dime, and my company everything. I didn't pay jack shit in taxes this year for sure.

The devil is in the details. What is the 200k number? income gross, net, net adjusted? And just a heads up but there are not many deductions for people over 200k.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by BV

Poor people wouldn't be taxed much at all because if you're poor you don't have money to buy that much. And rich people would be taxed more than they are now, if they spend it.

Currently poor people pay zero or close to it. So if they had a 10% sales tax they would pay that much more then now. Rich people pay 35% so if they spend 100% of their cash they would save 25%. Any number less then 35% and more then 0% works out this way.

[Ethersync]

Originally Posted by BV

Poor people wouldn't be taxed much at all because if you're poor you don't have money to buy that much. And rich people would be taxed more than they are now, if they spend it.

Originally Posted by BV

if you are not paying taxes you are not making any money or you are breaking the law

[kane]

Originally Posted by slapass

Currently poor people pay zero or close to it. So if they had a 10% sales tax they would pay that much more then now. Rich people pay 35% so if they spend 100% of their cash they would save 25%. Any number less then 35% and more then 0% works out this way.

There are a few things you might be forgetting about. If you have national sales tax instead of a federal income tax you could do like many states do with their sales tax and make some things tax free. You an make groceries and medicine tax free. so, sure, a poor person would still have to pay taxes on clothes or other things they buy, but they aren't going to buy much so it won't be much. Also you could include a program where people under a certain income level could get a rebate on sales tax paid on certain items

the other thing is that everyone that sets foot in this country would then be paying into the system. the 20 million or so illegals that are here and don't pay taxes, but use many of our services will now be paying some taxes. We are still the number one tourist destination in the world and all of those tourist will come to the US and sped their money and put money into the system so there will be many more people paying into it.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Socks

I saw a guy on TV last night talking in support of a flat tax system, which they use in Hong Kong, Russia, etc.

Yes use RUSSIA aa an example of how to run a country.

Basically in a flat tax system, there are no special interest groups that can get money from the tax system. They all get cut off.

Everyone pays the same, basic, low tax rate.

How can everyone pay the same LOW rate? This sytem would greatly lower taxes and the rich so the ONLY way to make up that revenue is to greatly INCREASE the taxes on the middle calss and poor. In fact the the poor don't even make enough money to pay an equal amount of taxes. THINK!

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by slapass

Currently poor people pay zero or close to it. So if they had a 10% sales tax they would pay that much more then now. Rich people pay 35% so if they spend 100% of their cash they would save 25%. Any number less then 35% and more then 0% works out this way.

Ok first of all the 35% tax rate does not apply to ALL income, only income ABOVE $336,000 of TAXABLE income. Fact is if your job paid you $336,000 you wouldn't pay 35% in income taxes. In fact if you made $336,000 ( supposedly the 35% tax bracket ) you only pay at most 28% in income taxes not 35%

[BV]

Originally Posted by kane

There are a few things you might be forgetting about. If you have national sales tax instead of a federal income tax you could do like many states do with their sales tax and make some things tax free. You an make groceries and medicine tax free. so, sure, a poor person would still have to pay taxes on clothes or other things they buy, but they aren't going to buy much so it won't be much. Also you could include a program where people under a certain income level could get a rebate on sales tax paid on certain items

the other thing is that everyone that sets foot in this country would then be paying into the system. the 20 million or so illegals that are here and don't pay taxes, but use many of our services will now be paying some taxes. We are still the number one tourist destination in the world and all of those tourist will come to the US and sped their money and put money into the system so there will be many more people paying into it.

EXACTLY, thank you.

Our society is all about credit and spending and not enough about liquidity and saving.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by kane

There are a few things you might be forgetting about. If you have national sales tax instead of a federal income tax you could do like many states do with their sales tax and make some things tax free. You an make groceries and medicine tax free. so, sure, a poor person would still have to pay taxes on clothes or other things they buy, but they aren't going to buy much so it won't be much. Also you could include a program where people under a certain income level could get a rebate on sales tax paid on certain items

the other thing is that everyone that sets foot in this country would then be paying into the system. the 20 million or so illegals that are here and don't pay taxes, but use many of our services will now be paying some taxes. We are still the number one tourist destination in the world and all of those tourist will come to the US and sped their money and put money into the system so there will be many more people paying into it.

Huckabee is for this crap. No thank you. My sales taxes in my state are already near 10% and you want another 23%? Yeah that's good for the economy. Do you realize how much I and others would reduce spending to abosolute minimum? Is that good for the economy for people to spend LESS? Um no.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by kane

There are a few things you might be forgetting about. If you have national sales tax instead of a federal income tax you could do like many states do with their sales tax and make some things tax free. You an make groceries and medicine tax free. so, sure, a poor person would still have to pay taxes on clothes or other things they buy, but they aren't going to buy much so it won't be much. Also you could include a program where people under a certain income level could get a rebate on sales tax paid on certain items

the other thing is that everyone that sets foot in this country would then be paying into the system. the 20 million or so illegals that are here and don't pay taxes, but use many of our services will now be paying some taxes. We are still the number one tourist destination in the world and all of those tourist will come to the US and sped their money and put money into the system so there will be many more people paying into it.

yes you could make things tax free. We do that with our state sales tax. I would argue that Bill Gates spends more on food then a poor person and such it would wash but I might be wrong. If some stuff is tax free the stuff that isn't needs to be taxed higher as you still need to take the same amount so not sure if it even makes a difference.

The income rebate thing makes no sense as then we have to prove income again and the whole point of making this easier is gone. What is income? What are deductions? etc....

Yep we get into the underground stuff. Should be a big tax base pickup. Tourists also are cool but we tax those businesses and the people who work in them now so we do get some of that with the current sytem.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Ok first of all the 35% tax rate does not apply to ALL income, only income ABOVE $336,000 of TAXABLE income. Fact is if your job paid you $336,000 you wouldn't pay 35% in income taxes. In fact if you made $336,000 ( supposedly the 35% tax bracket ) you only pay at most 28% in income taxes not 35%

ok change the number to 28% and it still has the same effect as I doubt we could live with an instant 28%+ sales tax.

[GetSCORECash]

I agrea with the comments that foreigner/tourist would pay more into the system. A large portion of the sales tax collected here in florida comes from tourists.

The poor already pay taxes via sales tax, and they pay 7% here in Miami-Dade county. You also need to understand that if you make 10 to 15k a year you actually get an aditional 3k from the government, I'm not sure exactly of the correct figure.

I personally would pay more if a 15% flat tax would be enacted, but only by a bit more on my current Federal Income tax, as I have allot of deductions. If I include my property taxes, I actually pay 24% a year in taxes currently, and that doesn't include sales tax. (I factored in the tax saving from deducting my property taxes, to come up with the 24% total tax rate.)

I just don't see the FEDS passing on any of the 15% down to the states, inorder to save us money on our property Taxes.

[slapass]

What if we did a 20 year phase out of deductions and some taxes?

No deduction for mtge interest, sales tax, state tax or medical. Add in any others you can think of.

No tax on dividends, capital gains or interest earned. Add any others.

Do it over 20 years so the market can adjust slowly and let us all fill out our taxes in 1/2 the time.

As the system is now we have tons of cool things in that income tax returns support our whole credit system etc. So rather go nuts why not streamline and turn 4/15 into an easier task.

[DateDoc]

A flat 10% sales tax on everyone making over 50k (corporations included), no deductions at all, would bring in more money to the Govt than they currently get with the current tax system.

[BV]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Huckabee is for this crap. No thank you. My sales taxes in my state are already near 10% and you want another 23%? Yeah that's good for the economy. Do you realize how much I and others would reduce spending to abosolute minimum? Is that good for the economy for people to spend LESS? Um no.

I doubt it would be that much because we would end up collecting more money than now.
From illegal aliens, as well as legal aliens and all the underground under the table business dealings that go on. All that would be useless now.

The crack dealers are going to be paying their fair share rolling on their new 22's.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by BV

I doubt it would be that much because we would end up collecting more money than now.
From illegal aliens, as well as legal aliens and all the underground under the table business dealings that go on. All that would be useless now.

The crack dealers are going to be paying their fair share rolling on their new 22's.

But you will lose the Bill Gate's of the world as he would pay about 99.9% less then he does now.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by BV

I doubt it would be that much because we would end up collecting more money than now.

Actually all the experts that looked at this said it would have to even be higher.

From illegal aliens, as well as legal aliens and all the underground under the table business dealings that go on. All that would be useless now.

The crack dealers are going to be paying their fair share rolling on their new 22's.

If you believe that you're crazy. A HUGE black market would open up. In my state people pay about 8% sales tax on food. Those that live near to the Kentucky border shop for groceries there because it's ZERO % And that's just to save 8% How much money is stores in TN losing because the state refuses to reduce or get rid of the sales tax on food? This would make things worse.

Fact is if I have $1000 to spend on a TV I know I can really only spend about $900 becuse of taxes. If this "fair" tax passed I could only spend $750 because the rest would go to taxes. Now logic says the store makes LESS off of me by me buying a $750 TV than a $900 TV. Now apply that to everything. Stores like wal-mart make less money then lay off or cut hours of workers. Yes this is REALLY good for the economy.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by slapass

But you will lose the Bill Gate's of the world as he would pay about 99.9% less then he does now.

Bill needs a break. I mean how long can one live off $55 billion? let get rid of the "death tax" too because Bill's kids, grand kids and great-grandkids need to live tax free forver and never pay a dime in taxes and never work at any kind of job and never contribute to anything ever.

[BV]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Bill needs a break. I mean how long can one live off $55 billion? let get rid of the "death tax" too because Bill's kids, grand kids and great-grandkids need to live tax free forver and never pay a dime in taxes and never work at any kind of job and never contribute to anything ever.

I hope he makes more and more. The amount of philanthropy he does is better for society than what that same money would do going to the IRS.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by BV

I hope he makes more and more. The amount of philanthropy he does is better for society than what that same money would do going to the IRS.

well of course, but that doesn't mean his great-great grandkids who weren't born until decades after he died deserve tax free money.

[kane]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Huckabee is for this crap. No thank you. My sales taxes in my state are already near 10% and you want another 23%? Yeah that's good for the economy. Do you realize how much I and others would reduce spending to abosolute minimum? Is that good for the economy for people to spend LESS? Um no.

The idea would be that the sales tax would replace a federal income tax so the average person would have more money in their pocket and they could control how much they have in taxes by their spending. Sure there are people that would spend less to avoid taxes, but I really doubt it would be that much. People who want a big screen TV are going to go out and buy one, same with those that want to buy a nice car, or an expensive piece of furniture.

I'm not saying it is the solution, but it is something too look at. It's not worth doing if the sales tax would have to be like 35% or higher, but there is some good evidence that if it were around 23% the government would get the same amount of income coming in, but they would actually save money because they could eliminate most of the IRS.

[kane]

Originally Posted by GatorB

well of course, but that doesn't mean his great-great grandkids who weren't born until decades after he died deserve tax free money.

Why not. If I build a house and pay it off shouldn't I be able to give it to anyone I want. What If I give it to my kids who give it to theirs and down the line until my great great great great grandson decides to sell it and pocket the cash? I built it, I paid for it, it is my prerogative to do that if I want. If Gates earns the money why shouldn't he be allowed to give it generations of his family if he wants?

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by kane

The idea would be that the sales tax would replace a federal income tax so the average person would have more money in their pocket and they could control how much they have in taxes by their spending. Sure there are people that would spend less to avoid taxes, but I really doubt it would be that much. People who want a big screen TV are going to go out and buy one, same with those that want to buy a nice car, or an expensive piece of furniture.

You are naive. Most people WOULD NOT have more money in their pocket. The only ones that would would be the upper income people. Do the math.

I'm not saying it is the solution, but it is something too look at.

No it's not and it's unconstitutional anyways. Otherwise it would have been passed a long time ago.

It's not worth doing if the sales tax would have to be like 35% or higher, but there is some good evidence that if it were around 23% the government would get the same amount of income coming in, but they would actually save money because they could eliminate most of the IRS.

The IRS budget is not THAT big. Once again you'l get black market stuff going on. Listen I live in TN 35 miles from KY I don't smoke but I have friends that do. Whenever I plan to go to KY these friends always give me money to buy cigarettes because the taxes on cigs are MUCH cheaper than in TN. So my state is losing money because people are getting cigarettes from other states to avoid paying high cigarette taxes. You don't think the same type of thing won't happen with a 23% national sales tax. And that's 23% plus the state sales tax so that means I would end up paying nearly 33%.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by kane

Why not. If I build a house and pay it off shouldn't I be able to give it to anyone I want. What If I give it to my kids who give it to theirs and down the line until my great great great great grandson decides to sell it and pocket the cash? I built it, I paid for it, it is my prerogative to do that if I want. If Gates earns the money why shouldn't he be allowed to give it generations of his family if he wants?

Um because your great great great grandkids should help pay their share. Why should they get the benefits of living in the US and not contribute anything to it? Because some distant relative that died 50 years before they were born actually worked?

[Matt 26z]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Fact is if I have $1000 to spend on a TV I know I can really only spend about $900 becuse of taxes. If this "fair" tax passed I could only spend $750 because the rest would go to taxes.

If the store included the tax in the price tag, you'd get that "$1000 TV" for $1000!

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

If the store included the tax in the price tag, you'd get that "$1000 TV" for $1000!

Don't be retarded. wal-mart isn't going to eat $150 in profit to give me a TV that still only totals $1000

[spunkmister]

I live in HK so we have a flat tax system here, as well as low business tax. One of the reasons it works here is due to the Jockey Club, which controls the Lottery and the Horse Races (which is massive business) and they are officially a "non profit" organisation and they put back a huge amount of money into the economy, keeping the personal tax here low.

We also have no wealth tax, and there is a cut off point for people making low income where they dont pay any taxes at all...to be honest I dont know what that cutoff point is.

As mentioned by the OP, majority of people do their own taxes...most accountants dont handle personal taxes and concentrate on business tax. My tax form, is literally once sheet of paper, with things to fill out on both sides...simple.

We also have no sales tax, but the government is looking into implementing that in a few years (depending if it gets approved or not).

[kane]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Um because your great great great grandkids should help pay their share. Why should they get the benefits of living in the US and not contribute anything to it? Because some distant relative that died 50 years before they were born actually worked?

So my great great great grandkids selling my house and spending that money doesn't contribute anything? Do you think Bill Gate's relatives down the line won't be spending that money. Give a million dollar trust fund to a kid and he will contribute plenty to the economy because he is going to spend and/or invest that money.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by kane

So my great great great grandkids selling my house and spending that money doesn't contribute anything? Do you think Bill Gate's relatives down the line won't be spending that money. Give a million dollar trust fund to a kid and he will contribute plenty to the economy because he is going to spend and/or invest that money.

well then why have taxes at all? If all taxes were gotten rid of I'd have more money to spend and that would help the economy wouldn't it? Roads and bridges would be shit. water and air would be ditrty, no garbage pick up, we couldn't afford a military or police or fire departments but hey no taxes that's great!

THINK before spouting off. You wish everything was like fantasyland and that is not reality.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Don't be retarded. wal-mart isn't going to eat $150 in profit to give me a TV that still only totals $1000

The theory the fair taxers have is once companies are not being taxed, the price of goods would lower and it would cost the same as before the fair tax. There are weaknesses to that,shareholders like big profits so why give all of that up?Also bet your bottom dollar, if companies werent taking any taxes out of your pay. Wages would decrease, the theory being that tax money wasnt yours to begin with.

[kane]

Originally Posted by GatorB

well then why have taxes at all? If all taxes were gotten rid of I'd have more money to spend and that would help the economy wouldn't it? Roads and bridges would be shit. water and air would be ditrty, no garbage pick up, we couldn't afford a military or police or fire departments but hey no taxes that's great!

THINK before spouting off. You wish everything was like fantasyland and that is not reality.

Well, now you have me confused. First you say that people shouldn't be given a free ride. That the great great great grandkids of Bill Gates shouldn't be allowed to have his money because they didn't earn it and there by are not contributing to society. Fair enough. I point out that if you give these people that money they will spend it, thereby contributing to society and the economy. Now you are on a tangent about taxes. Are you now saying they shouldn't get that money because they won't have had to pay taxes on it? I never said do away with taxes.

[kane]

Originally Posted by GatorB

well then why have taxes at all? If all taxes were gotten rid of I'd have more money to spend and that would help the economy wouldn't it? Roads and bridges would be shit. water and air would be ditrty, no garbage pick up, we couldn't afford a military or police or fire departments but hey no taxes that's great!

THINK before spouting off. You wish everything was like fantasyland and that is not reality.

Ok. I just went back and re-read previous posts. I think your point is that they get tax free money so that money isn't going towards the tax base eventhough they are living in the country and they are getting the benefits of that tax base. Fair enough. But let's be honest, the amount of people something like this effects is very small and the amount of money they would pump into the economy would far outweigh any taxes they may pay if they had a job.

Say for example you have average person number 1 and they make the national average of 42K per year. They have a spouse and 2 kids and pay around 4K annually to federal taxes. Great. Now you have bill gates great grandkid who has a trust fund someone up the line set up for them that has 10 million in it and it pays out at 300K per year. They are going to spend and invest that money. So if they go out and buy a 100K car then that money is passed to someone else who eventually pays taxes on it. So some taxes do eventually come out of the money, but I would venture to guess if this person lived in say, Seattle, them dumping their 300K a year in trust fund money into the Seattle economy is far more beneficial to society as a whole than if they had a job making 42K a year and were paying 4K a year in taxes.

[KnightMare]

The rich SHOULD get tax breaks. THEY are the people who build businesses and provide JOBS for the underprivelaged! Come on now! If you aren't smart enough to make money in America, you should get TAXED!

[NinjaSteve]

Flat tax won't work. It'll just keep middle class and under poor.

Here's a book to check out.
http://www.amazon.com/Flat-Tax-Wont-.../dp/1886039283

[Socks]

Originally Posted by GatorB

How can everyone pay the same LOW rate? This sytem would greatly lower taxes and the rich so the ONLY way to make up that revenue is to greatly INCREASE the taxes on the middle calss and poor. In fact the the poor don't even make enough money to pay an equal amount of taxes. THINK!

Think of all the deductions there are... Those are all now being taxed. It just makes it easier for people to understand, harder for rich people to skirt taxes, and gives the government less tinkering control. They can either raise the rate, or find other ways to make money.

I heard a story that Warren Buffet once was speaking at a conference full of multi millionaires, billionaires etc.. And he offered to write anyone a $1,000,000 check if they could prove to him that they paid less taxes as a percentage than their secretaries did.. And nobody stepped forward. They all pay less, because there's so many deductions and ways to move your money around, defer, this and that.. All that would go away.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by KnightMare

The rich SHOULD get tax breaks. THEY are the people who build businesses and provide JOBS for the underprivelaged! Come on now! If you aren't smart enough to make money in America, you should get TAXED!

You are retarded. If America wasn't America then they couldn't be rich. The soldiers that make sure America stays free should be taxed but the rich shouldn't? The police and firemen that protect the rich from crime and fire should be taxed but a rich guy shouldn't? The construction worker that builds and maintains the roads and bridges the rich guys drives on should be taxed but not the rich guy?