Spunky

Fuck the man for trying to hold us down

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GatorB

Listen the budget for 2008 is $2.5 TRILLION. There are 140 million taxpayers. Do the math that is $18,000 per taxpayer if you you want a tax system where eveyone pays an equal share. How does someone making minimum wage which is $12,000 pay $18,000 in taxes? What is "fair" about that?

Socks

Did you read the customer reviews? ;)

- Throughout this book the same thought kept occuring in my brain: The author, Hicko, is an accountant and tax preparer by trade. Of course he doesn't want a flat tax. His profession is the only one that loses under a simple tax code. This book is just a bunch of class warfare dribble that went out of style in 1975. Forbes' book, Flat Tax Revolution, is much better.

- A book of even greater myths.
He misses the fundamental flaw in the entire plot.
America is not a complicated economy. It may be many faceted which is very different from complicated. What is complicated is an organization that spends its time looking for never ending ways to justify taking money from its productive citizens. Calculating and grading every profitable venture in a myriad of complicated ways to invent and justify ploys to squeeze out more and more taxes. It is a marvellous game with a cast of tens of thousands uselessly employed in a cat and mouse game that could well be employed in a proper job where there was something to market and the end of a day's work. Where their activity made the GDP greater at the end of the day than it was in the morning.
The less people involved in collecting taxes the better for the country. The simpler the system the less wasted labor in administering it the better.
The true fact is the IRS has only ever got more complicated, employed more people, made more rules, got more difficult to follow and created more accountants jobs as people in despair turn to specialists in almost a vain effort to comply with their never ending changes in rules. And you think you can fix this with a bit of fiddling at the edges? Dream on.

No one has to date despite the massive efforts than have been put into it trying. As I said you can't fix something that is fundamentally flawed in the first place. Endlessly figuring out ways of taking money from the producers that have to give to the unproductive have nots is about as communistic as they come.
I hope your red card is fully paid up Mr. Hicko.

etc.. Most people rated it 1star.

Socks

Since when does the money paid in taxes have anything to do with the number of taxpayers? How many taxpayers does Bill Gates and Microsoft corp alone cover? If a rich guy makes 100x what a poor person makes, he'll be paying roughly 100x more, about as fair as it gets.. No penalty for being productive, or saving money.

PS: You may want to start by politely asking your government to lower the "defense" budget.

Wikipedia: For 2007, the budget rose to US$439.3 billion.[1] This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance and production (~$9.3 billion, which is in the Department of Energy budget), Veterans Affairs (~$33.2 billion) or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which are largely funded through extra-budgetary supplements, ~$170 billion in 2007).[2] Conversely, the military budget does allocate money for dual-use items, such as the development of infrastructure surrounding U.S. military bases. Altogether, military-related expenses totaled approximately $626.1 billion.[3]

U.S. military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world's defense spending combined [7] and is over eight times larger than the official military budget of China. (Note that this comparison is done in nominal value US dollars and thus is not adjusted for purchasing power parity.) The United States and its close allies are responsible for about two-thirds of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority).

spunkmister

if you have a flat tax then everyone pays the same % of their income for tax...which means the guy making 12k a year wont be paying 18k in taxes...and in most countries that have the flat tax system people making less than a certain amount dont pay taxes.

GatorB

Well I never said the current system is great or a different approach isn't need. But pure flat taxes or this national sales tax is NOT the answer. Yes Bush espoused about having a simpler tax system when he ran in 2000 then promptry added a a 6th bracket to the tax code. Um MORE brackets is SIMPLER? Hey about 3 tax brackets? Because you are either poor, middle class or rich. I'm all for getting rid of most exemptions and instead just have lower rates. As it is now it's all a shell game.

GatorB

Then you get the same people bitch about who the poor don't pay ANY taxes though they in fact do. These people conveniently forget about FICA, sales, gas, property taxes etc etc

spunkmister

I dont see a flat tax working in the US (it works fine in Hk where I live) but something needs to be done with the current system, instead of streamlining the process they seem to just keep adding more and more hoops for people to jump through...

Socks

Wow gets even more scary...

The recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are largely funded through supplementary spending bills outside the Federal Budget, so they are not included in the military budget figures listed above.[13] In addition, the United States has black budget military spending which is not listed as Federal spending and is not included in published military spending figures. Other military-related items, like maintenance of the nuclear arsenal and the money spent by the Veterans Affairs Department, are not included in the official budget. Thus, the total amount spent by the United States on military spending is higher.

Matt 26z

My point was that after an adjustment period, people would get used to price tags including the tax. So there wouldn't be any of this, I have $x but I can only spend $x because of tax.

efp

The flat tax principle is a nice one. In Andorra - where we are, there is no income or capital gain tax. Everyone pays a flat tax per year (which isn't too much!) and on everything imported from EU they first remove the VAT from EU and then add an import tax on it - which is actually lower than VAT in EU! The system works great here.

Every politician saying you need all existing taxes, is just trying to make sure he can keep living in his luxury villa ...

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Brujah

You're right GatorB. Hong Kong, etc.. are all fucked. They can't sustain that kind of taxation. Riiiiggghhttt.

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shermo

Lot of fun arguments going on here. I'll just sit back here and watch! My only gripe is the death tax and people who think it needs to be taxed. It was already taxed once.

slapass

This is the one tax I do not mind. I think death is a great time to pay taxes. If they raised this one and lowered my yearly tax i would be ecstatic.

Flat tax or brackets does not make much of a difference. That is the easiest part of the tax calculation, looking at the table. It is the endless deductions and phasing out of these deductions for higher income etc. Alternative minimum tax and all that BS too. A simpler system could evolve just buy streamlining what we have.

Pleasurepays

your Gates analogy assumes the money in question is not already a part of the economy... which would basically mean it is in a vault somewhere or under someones pillow. thats not how an economy works. they don't have to personally run around spending it for the economy to benefit from it or from their wealth.

DWB

For those who shelter their money or have aggressive tax strategies, I'm not sure how they would pay MORE. It means they would hide or plan LESS.

I'm all for a flat tax. I'm against any other method and think its criminal.

Ethersync

Stop thinking. You're embarrassing yourself...

DWB

First of all, I didn't cause the country to go into debt. I have to manage my books, why don't they? Why do we have to pay for their shit? The only real reason we pay taxes is to pay on the debt that the country owes. It's not my debt. I've paid off all my debts. Took me several years to get out of my hole, without the governments help. Now I don't want to help them. But it's criminal to do so.

To add, I'm an expat so I don't see any reason I should be paying taxes to the US anyway. Fuck them. They get just a little bit from me now, not a penny more.

You are not paying for the war. You are paying for the country BORROWING money so we can go to war. I read somewhere that the USA borrows something like 3 billion dollars a day to keep it afloat. That is total fucking madness. Why should you or I pay for that? Did anyone call you and ask you if you approved of them borrowing money? Do we have a choice? Of course not. Slaves all US citizens are.

What's fair is the government pays for their own mistakes and debts. Let expats totally free of the tax system (why tax people who don't even live, work or earn in the country?) and do a flat tax for those who do live in the country.

DWB

Wrong.

There are several creative and LEGAL ways to lower your taxes to about nill. All legal. Sorry if you don't know what those ways are. But do your homework and educate yourself.

Pleasurepays

the national debt and income taxes have no connection to each other

Ethersync

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all
individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

kane

True and even if the money were sitting in a trust fund, taxes have already been paid on it when it was earned (or paid when it was taken out depending on how the fund was set up). I have a feeling Gator just doesn't like the idea of rich kids getting a free ride. (I'm not crazy about it either)

BV

Really?, I'm sorry too.

Will these creative ways you speak of survive an audit???

You know, you can write whatever you want to on your tax return, doesnt mean anything until you get audited

Ethersync

The legal ones, by definition, will do just that...

bushwacker

you = retarded

Pleasurepays

do yourself a favor and read up on how the debt is paid.... instead of searching google for 30 minutes trying to find an argument.

Ethersync

Ok, now you are just talking out of your fucking ass. I didn't spend 30 minutes searching for something like this quote on Google. I already knew about this study they did back then. It took me 10 seconds to find the exact quote.

How about you share your wisdom with us fucktard? What did I say about how debt is paid that is not correct?

pocketkangaroo

I would love a flat tax. Would be fair for everyone and make filing taxes easy. I can't stand the current system where I have no fucking clue what is going on in my tax returns.

pocketkangaroo

I think that was more because capital gains tax is must lower than regular income tax. I'm sure Buffet pays a ton of taxes still.

pocketkangaroo

And for those touting the FairTax (national sales tax), there are just too many holes in it. First, it's a regressive tax that hurts the poor and helps the rich. Middle class families will end up paying 20% of their income to the government while billionaires will pay .0001%.

Second, used products don't get taxes. What stops me from owning a car dealership, selling each new car to my brother for $1, then buying that car back for $2 and selling it used on my lot for whatever price I want? It would cause a huge black market for un-taxed goods and hurt businesses who play by the rules. Why go to the grocery store to buy fruit when the local fruit stand isn't tacking on sales tax? Why buy music, books, DVDs at the store when you can buy bootlegs for much cheaper? Stolen merchandise also becomes much more lucrative.

Kevin Marx

problem or cool thing??? taxation is a joke. a dollar is a dollar, but if you make less money, you get to keep more of your dollar than if you make more money (the politicians figure you can handle giving more of it to the government because you earn more of it???)

if you operate your small business and can't handle paying taxes, then you are in the wrong business.. it's just part of operations. Earn enough to pay the bills and the taxes and have enough left over to make it profitable for you. If you can't do that part, find a new business or work for someone else that has a better strategy.

A flat tax makes perfect sense except to the people that are paying less than everyone else is.

GatorB

Who in the fuck are you anyways? Fuck off n00b.

Atticus

If you're company turns a profit your company will be paying the tax. In most cases corporations are taxed higher than individuals. If you are the only shareholder you're much better off with an S corp and then all company profits become individual profits and taxed at a lower rate.

Atticus

I agree with you that a national sales tax isnt the answers, for many reasons but this above example isnt one of them. Proponents of a national sales tax want this sales tax to replace the federal income tax. So if you had $1k to spend on a TV after federal taxes you would then have roughly $1,333 to spend if you didnt have to pay federal taxes (if your tax rate was 25% in this example). A 25% sales tax on the TV would then mean that your $1,333 still buys the same TV. Most likely you would come out ahead with the sales tax as currently your gross income is taxed at the 25% plus the TV in most states would have 5-8% sales tax added on.

KnightMare

How so? Prove to me that my statement is incorrect. Show me HOW the poor are the people who provide jobs for others. Or are you of the mindset that EVERYONE should be RICH?

Imagine for a moment that everyone was wealthy. Who would work? Imagine for a moment that everyone were poor. Who would work? Work is important for economic functionality. If everyone were on perma-vacation because they could afford to be... Nobody would be farming food, flipping burgers, buying & selling stocks... ie... DRIVING the economy. To ignore this fact is, as you say... "retarded".

If everyone were poor.... What would be the point of working? Nobody could PAY you. You'd simply be in a bartering system. I'll give you this rotten piece of beef in exchange for your partially used battery to power my flashlight, so I can see at night, since nobody works at the utility companies anymore to keep our power running.

These are 2 extremes, but both are possible, if the balance doesn't exist. Bush drove the economy into near recession status, after Clinton drove us into a bloated economic boom, where many got rich that never would have before, and squandered their earnings on unimportant "Things" rather than creating more jobs. Some did not, but overall, what indicates a person's financial status is directly related to their intellectual level pertaining to their industry and skillset.

It is, as you say, "retarded", to think that EVERYONE is intelligent and that EVERYONE should be Wealthy. It is retarded to think that EVERYONE should get "tax breaks". Why would an 18 y/o pimple faced borderline intellectual vegetable that flips burgers for a living at McDonald's and will never go any further in life, get the same tax breaks over the person who is out in the world growing businesses, building jobs for others, stimulating the economy in communities and funding future ventures for future growth?? That simply doesn't make any sense at all. The people who think Flat Taxes are a good idea, most likely are those that have no idea how to be successful or make money on their own.

So... Prove it. Explain WHY underprivelaged people should get the same tax advantages as people who can stimulate the economy.

I'm of the belief, that if you are employed by someone, you should pay ALL of the taxes. If you employ others, you get 0 taxes.

Grow the rich. Eat the stupid.

Sansa

I also do not see any issue with inherited money. Yes, they should get the benefit because some relative worked hard and paid all the necessary taxes on those earnings. That's how these things work.

Ethersync

Exactly. That money was taxed already anyways and any new money made from that money is taxed also. I don't see how anyone justify taxing it again.

GatorB

You're assuming people pay the 25% tax. They don't. And your math is wrong. Even if you're at the upper end of the 25% tax bracket your total income taxes amount to less than 20% of your gross income. I don't get why people think that it you're in the 25% or 35% or whatever tax bracket that everything from dollar 1 on up is taxed at that rate. It isn't. Not to metnion you don't even pay taxes on every dollar you earn anyways.

Even a single person with no dependants and no other deductions pays ZERO taxes on the first $8750 of his income no matter how much he makes. A married couple with 2 kids even with no other deductions doesn't pay squat on the first $23,500 in income. The next $15,100 is only taxed at 10% the next $46,200 is only taxed at 15%. So if that couple made $85,000 a year they'd pay a total of $8500 in income taxes or just 10% of their income even though they would be in the 25% tax bracket.

A person making the 2009 minimum wage of $7.25 makes $15,000 a year currently only has $12 a week taken out of his paycheck. Are you telling me that national sales tax he'd pay LESS than that per week in sales tax? I think not. So he'd spend less than $52 a week in goods? Hardly. What about someone buying a house or car? That's a HUGE hit. A $20,000 car is $4600 in taxes. Is that person REALLY coming out ahead? A $200,000 house is $46,000 in national sales tax. And yes those that propose this are infact including car and house purchases otherwise the tax would have to be 30%.

GatorB

So what you are saying is that you are willing to pay HIGHER taxes so some lazy fuck can live off money a long dead relative made?

Ethersync

What is your justification for taking it? Jealousy? Greed? Both?

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Yup Inheritance tax and death tax is completely fucked.

When that was passed into Law people should have been in the streets rioting and burning cop car's and public service buildings.


Single handed one of the fucken schummiest sleeziest fucking things the American Tax system does. GIves you an insite about these fucking blood suckers taking money your family earned and paid taxes on thier whole lives only to give you a fucken bill for them dying.

Dirt bags.

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GatorB

Veryone get s double atxed right now idiot.

Someone making $26,000 a year pays $2000 in FICA taxes. He never sees that money. When he files his taxes he has to pay at least 10% income tax on that $2000 FICA tax. Is that not double taxation? Also I assume you pay income taxes so your income is taxed. Then you go to the store and pay sales taxes. Well wasn't that money already taxed? yes, but you are required to pay sales tax. That's double taxation.

GatorB

No jealously. why should I have to pay some rich kids taxes? You still refused to answer the question.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Not to mention most of the shit we buy is not even American Product.
Thus every product brought in was Import taxed as well.
The price is carried to the consumer of course so that almost triple taxation.

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KnightMare

It sounds like you're obsessed with being "active" rather than "productive". The 2 terms are inherently different in the aspect that "productivity" is a much more valuable attribute and dwarfs "activity" in every way. Not being "active" is NOT being "lazy". Haven't you ever heard "Work SMARTER... NOT Harder!"? Working HARD for works sake, is what lemmings do.

If I run around an office, with a cellphone to my ear and a stack of papers in my hand and earn $80,000.00/yr... Is that better than sitting in my boxers on a couch, after having invented something 10 years ago that nets me $10,000.00 a month? Or what if my great great grandmother invented something 130 years ago, that earns me $10,000.00/month today?

Define "Lazy", so I can understand what you mean by "lazy fuck". How do YOU know the person is "lazy". All of this seems so hypothetical, and arbitrary.

pffft.

GatorB

Why less than 1% of the people were affected by it when it started. By the way both Warrent Buffet and Bill Gates says they are ok with the "death tax". And they are the 2 guys most affected by it.

By the way I never said I wasn't for exemptions to it. Exempt the first $10,000,000( adjusted annually for inflation ) primary residence doesn't count towards the $10,000,000 and is not taxed. Inheritance can be spread over 10 years for tax purposes and then taxed at the same rate as regular income taxes. 99.9% would pay next to nothing.

GatorB

i can defend my position with 2 words, PARIS HILTON. You wish to pay higher taxes for that bitch?

Ethersync

I agree we are all taxed to death and on many levels. I don't see how this is justification for an Inheritance tax though.

GatorB, you are saying that because we have to pay FICA taxes there should be an Inheritance tax? That's the justification for taking someone elses rightfully earned property? Your example about sales tax applies to anyone buying anything including evil children of evil rich people...

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

bottom line is every single American is playing an unfair game with the dealer working a stacked deck.

I said this before and here is the stakes.

Odd's are if you are poor or from a poor family you will be poor for the rest of your life. FUCKING Period.
Thats a fucken fact like it or not.

I know many of you are young and think "Oh no not me! I am going to be somebody!" LOL you won't! Odd's are against you ever being more successful than your parents were and even if you do surpass your parents in wealth it will most likely not be remotly close to the wealth that real wealth is measured in!

Now if you are from a rich family odd's are you yourself will be rich with a greater chance at succedding in your amibitions, your dreams and your business. Thats just the fucking way it is.

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Ethersync

So we should all be able to have the government take money/property from people we don't like?