thank you sherlock holmes.

psyko514, actually I worked at 4 different branches as an account manager, rene-levesque was my first branch and the one that I was at the longest, then I started to change branches to something closer to home. If your gf has worked there prior to '94, for sure we know eachother, as I was a *fixture* at the branch ;-)

Just for those who may be more informed with the debit cards - If they work anything like regular debit cards, shouldn't it be harder to charge back if you are using a PIN to confirm the transaction since nobody is *supposed* to have access to your PIN?

You guys sure do make some good whiskey up there in Kanada.
Keep up the good work.

Ever try to charge back in a whorehouse after you blew your load?
Friend of mine tried it in Arnhem, Holland.
Cost him three weeks in the hospital and an eye.
Guess them pimps in the backroom don't go for that stuff.

Why does any credit card company allow a charge back on this type of transaction? thats what I don't get?

ALL PUSSY SALES ARE FINAL !!!

I think these c/c companies don't want it known what kind of transaction they are facilitating, they are a part of the porn industry, like it or not.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,36853,00.html

http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0916/038.html

http://pokermag.com/managearticle.asp?c=270&a=10

Recent: http://www.imra.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3251

Visa's gonna lose. Bad.

"Companies with questions on any issues related to the debit-card litigation should contact Moe Cain in the IMRA office: (703) 600-2012 or mcain @ imra.org"

Cal -

You must have a shitty bank that you are setup with, our charge backs run the course just like he said, we get both an email and a letter stating that there has been a claim filed, we then have like 7 days to respond with proof of the charge, or the refund becomes permanent. And we have always had good luck when we send them logs and the sign up results along with a copy of the front page of the site that they signed up to as proof, of course we show all the IP's and it normally points to a local ISP so that has always helped since the ISP has always been in the same town as the asshole trying to BC :D


Tim
:Graucho

trixxxia... she's only been there for a year...
as for check cards, they work like a credit card, except the funds are taken from your checking account instead of a credit account. so no monthly payments or interest.

good work mate :thumbsup

if every bank card representative were doing what you done....

we did had all those troubles with VISA:winkwink:

Tim,

We have used CardService Int'l and Humboldt directly, neither one really gives a shit about any 'proof'. As I said their return documents when we do dispute (yes we do get time to answer, but since our success rate is nearly 0% I exaggerated and said there is NOTHING you can do about it) say 'no signed receipt of product' which is essentially preventing any online merchant from disputing any chargeback.

To answer Brown Bear, the policy on a debit card chargeback is to file dispute papers, and then destroy the card and issue a new one. This is why you get nearly 0% chargebacks on debit accounts; because noone wants to wait upwards of 10 days to get a new card and file all the complaints.

Mark my words, if charging back were any harder than a 5 minute phonecall with no paperwork (this is at MANY banks, as this thread shows other countries and some US banks do have good policies in place, but nowhere near enough), the rates WOULD be under 1 percent.

C.

-- edit: the merchant bank is not the one who actually charges back, just to clarify, they are at the mercy of the card-issuing banks, who are the ones sending back the 'no signed receipt' responses ... Humboldt and Card Service do send you notification and you have about a week, as Tim said, but what good is it if you have a 0% chance of reversal success? ---

Because 'Interac' caught on here instead. Debit cards are used in Canada to purchase a single candy bar, gas, movie tickets, furnature, fast food, everything. It is the most common transaction used in Canada. :)
ZoiNk

are visa check cards available in Canada?

He must be European ; Kanada, I am sure prime minister Chretin would not be very happy to see have Canada typed in the wrong way:)

that's 100% false.
number one, we can get a card to someone for the next business day, or even the same day if they're in the same city.
number two, if this is the second chargeback they do within the span of a few weeks/months, or if there is more than one charge from a merchant (rebills, for example), we give them two choices: 1. keep the card and be liable for those charges and all future charges they don't recognize.
2. cancel the card and have a new one issued.

well, tim has said he has a good success rate when he shows the proof... so maybe you need to find a new acquirer (because they DO play a role in the chargeback)

andrew1009: no check cards are available in canada.

pornjudge: yes, i am european by descent :)

zoink: good point with the interac information. so the USA doesn't have a similar debit card network?

psy: As I said, Canada appears to be totally different in their policies, or at least your bank has their act together. Humboldt is one of the largest adult merchant banks in the US, and most other merchant companies go through them for their high-risk, it's just a hopeless battle in many cases. I'd be interested to see if Tim processes only webmaster (b2b) transactions or actual surfer volume, because the two are obviously quite different.

I will tell you that based on US merchant history dating back 4 years and working with 4 different banks/services, there is little to nothing you can do to dispute the majority of customer chargebacks. Sometimes we get checks in the mail for the funds, but our CB ratios are already messed up at that point, so it's little consolation.

If you do make it to CEO of CIBC try to acquire an American presence so we don't have to deal with these awful American card banks ;)

C.

I work for TD Bank, my girlfriend works for CIBC. And at TD, we already have some american presence with TD Waterhouse. We're working on opening branches in american Walmarts over the next few years.

I will second this without hesitation (and I don't go through Humbolt). Even for internet retail where a product is shipped, we're fucked. As Cal mentioned, we can compile a 10 page essay with photos and fingerprints of the customer... but without a signature, the chargback stands. It's gotten to the point where funds in our bank simply drop, we get a letter about it a few days later, and I file it without wasting anymore time than I have to.

The last time I tried to dispute/reverse a chargeback, the customer had complained he never ordered. About 2 weeks later we got another letter from the issuing bank stating he never received his goods. So now we had a customer who didn't receive the goods which he never ordered. Faxing back these two conflicting stories (in writing!), I thought we might have a small chance. Nope.... whammy! The chargeback sitll stood. :ugone2far

A simple PIN number would fix this situation. I can understand a customer not wanting to give out their regular PIN number (I wouldn't)... so a new PIN just for internet transactions would suffice. I know they have the CVV2 crap, but that's still printed on the card itself. I'm thinking a 5 digit IPIN here or something. Have it pass directly through a VISA server which simply comes back with 'pass' or 'fail' -- kinda like AVS but, again, using info that's harder to mine like a PIN.

Anyway, the solutions are there but the banks need to implement them. Otherwise, this game of "easy chargebacks" combined with "the merchant foots all bills" is going to reach critical mass. It's just a matter of time before consumers find out how easily they can chargeback... then, just like Napster, even people who are generally honest will be tempted to indulge. Fuck, I'd like a new HDTV... I'm tempted! :angel

DragonAss... send the merchandise with "Signature Required" and get the shipping company to give you the copies.

As for your PIN idea, it's already been brought up several times in this thread (why do people reply to a thread without reading half of it?)

here's more info:
Visa USA: http://www.usa.visa.com/microsites/verified/index.html
Visa Canada: http://visa.tor.leoburnett.com/verified/

Again the merchant is required to do the CREDIT COMPANY'S job of fraud screening? It costs extra to send things registered mail, FedEx, etc. Why are we the first and last line of defense against cardholders?

The simplest solution is to do what CIBC/TD or whoever does. Make the customer go through a long process of paperwork and signatures to get the money back, and if they dispute more than 2-3 charges within a year (what I think is reasonable) make them get a new card. I guarantee chargebacks would plummet, since noone would want to go through that even if they got a new card within 2-3 days.

The fact is some (enough) banks will credit customers with no proof other than their say-so, they will credit MANY charges on a single statement (or many months of the same company, i.e. a recurring membership for half a year), and they will do nothing to cause the customer inconvenience. No amount of pincodes, increased consumer security, etc will prevent the majority of chargebacks, made by freeloaders who simply don't want to pay for the porn/whatever they have purchased. Only punitive measures by their card-issuing banks, or lengthy paperwork, will stop the widespread consumer fraud that is the Internet. 0% liability, gotta love it!

C.

YOU RAT BASTARD!!!
Now I'm going to have to pay for this fucking membership :feels-hot

Why are you the first and last line of defense? Because you're the one doing business with the customer. Visa is only a mode of payment, like cash.

If you own a store and you accept a credit card from a chinese dude who's card says Juan Sanchez, you're responsible for the charge when the real Juan Sanchez claims it as fraud. Same thing if you don't match the signature on the slip to the one on the back of the card. The simplest way to commit fraud is go into a store, buy some clothes, and sign the slip with a completely diff. signature than the one on the back of the card or your application. The majority of merchants hand you back the card right after they swipe without checking the signature.

Obviously, Visa/MC can't do anything to protect against that and it's the merchant's responsibility to do the fraud screening.
How can you prevent it online? Make CVV2 checks mandatory. Sure, some billers ask for CVV2, but they don't check to see if it's valid. Do CVV2 checks and make sure they're actually confirmed, and chargeback rates will drop.

In my opinion, every credit card should have a PIN just for online purchases and one for purchases in a store along with a picture on the cards AND when they purchase in a store, they also have to enter their PIN just like a debit card purchase.
This will allow them to have better control of fraudulous transactions - if they lose the card - the finder needs the code - if they manage to get the code - they have to match the picture - not being able to do that - they'd try to go online to purchase - without the online PIN it will be much harder for them to capitalise on the stolen/found credit cards.

As for chargebacks - it's not that easy in Canada because there is more paperwork and there is also a certain amount of time you have to wait to get the form, fill it - they request a copy or proof, investigate, then come back to you with the decision.

The credit card companies should pay a separate company to take the chargeback info, investigate the 'complaint', collect the proof from all parties whether they got what they paid for or not - whether they took advantage of the purchase or not - go back to the credit card company, the merchant and the cardholder with the proof and the decision. (this is basically what Interac does themselves)

Let me tell you, there will be smarter shoppers/surfers and there will be less chargebacks knowing that everyone will know exactly what happened - signature or not.

Not like cash. At least with cash the customer needs to come in face to face, have their receipt and return the goods. I miss cash. :(


Nobody disputes this. However, brick & mortar shops at least have this line of defense. They have an oportunity to protect themselves by obtaining signatures.

I'm not that confident in the CVV2 system. For one thing, it won't matter if the person does charge back... we still don't have a signature. For another, this information is being submitted directly to merchants and so the info has potential to get out. It can also get out if someone's card is stolen.

The only real solution I can see is some type of IPIN (or, similarly, Verified by Visa). Of course, the banks will have to honor the fact that an IPIN (or password) was used during the purchase and not simply honor the chargeback because a signature wasn't obtained. It sounds like Canada has a healthier outlook on the whole situation in general. In America, speaking for myself anyway, the banks have NOT exactly come across as the merchant's friend. Sometimes it feels like we're supposed to lick their collective asses clean for allowing us to conduct business and give them a cut... and this is why I give them the 3-finger salute. :321GFY


Cal: Requiring a signature for small-ticket items also puts a burdon on the consumer. This has serious potential for hurting sales and causing delivery-related problems (compared to leaving the item like regular mail) all of which has to be weighed against how many chargebacks it may be preventing. Like, how many people are going to arrange their whole day to be somewhere just so they can sign for an X-rated movie?

And, yes, "I'm the real Emmit Smith". :thefinger

(hmm... that commercial aired like 1-2 years ago... how come I still haven't been notified of any opportunities to implement this system on our site? Is it a Visa USA policy to air commercials for promotions 2 to 3 years before they're available?)

I use a check card but I've never come accross a site that takes my PIN number. In fact, I'd be leery if one did and probably forget the order. Your idea about the separate internet PIN (IPIN) is the way to go. That Verified by Visa thing is generally the same concept -- and it has to go through a Visa server directly so it can't get out easily -- but I've no idea what's taking them so long to implement it. They advertised it so long ago that I'd forgotten what it was... and psyko514 says they're now only experimenting on a few sites. :eyecrazy

I would assume the order page needs to detect that the card is Visa and only redirect when it is. Then, it either needs to detect a response from Visa or have all the order form variables passed through during this little step.

psyko514: I emailed Visa for more details on being a guinea pig. Do you know what kind of time-line merchants are looking at before this becomes a little more widespread? I know you aren't in the US, but any idea if this will be a defacto chargeback stopper? (sans cases of merchant fraud)

i'll respond tomorrow when i'm not so drunk and stuuuupid.

I will say this:

We receive in the ballpark of 30 chargebacks a month, moslty for recurring orders we process, and we dispute and win 99.9% of them. We are in the US, we use humboldt bank and have good relations with the chargeback department. We do not use fuzzy marketing tactics either. We submit transaction logs, our tos, and proof of delivery and we win almost every time. We do not accept returns on recurring orders, so even if a customer returns a recurring order to us they do not get a refund.

Also, we sell larger ticket items, average transaction is about 149.00.

This whole "we are totally screwed without a signature" thing is bullshit from my experience.

When a customer does win the dispute it is usually a mistake on our behalf.

PureMeds: My ears are open if you want to share your secrets. :) I'd be tickled pink if the regulations have changed, as I haven't attempted to dispute a chargback since 1998 and could've fallen behind the times. As late as 2000, it doesn't look like disputing chargebacks was going very well for most other merchants either (adult or non-adult):

http://www.thestandard.com/article/d...,11974,00.html

From page 2:

"But when dealing with a number instead of a card, the merchant is always liable. While the rules are the same for mail order and telephone orders - "MOTO" in industry parlance - as they are for online transactions, the Internet makes it easier for criminals to put merchants at risk."

It's that first sentence which makes me believe our nuts are in the Visa grip. :waaaaahh

If intelligence and sobriety were requirements for posting, most of our titles would still say "I am probably spamming".
:drinkup :stoned :arcadefre :winkwink:

Very interesting thread. :thumbsup

The difference is you are shipping an item and can provide proof of delivery. That is why you win chargebacks. With a website membership there is no physical product and no proof of delivery.

ok, i've gotten over my hangover, and I'll reply now :)
so here goes...

CVV2 can only be obtained on the card itself.
If the guy lost his card and someone used to sign up for a porn site, then the chargeback is valid, right? Nonetheless, if he lost his card, failed to report it to us within 48 hrs and we can prove that we could have avoided fraud, then he can be held responsible for up to $500. Otherwise, if he's saying he hasn't lost the card and just doesn't recognize the charge, we hold him responsible for it anyways as the CVV2 was confirmed/

obviously, no plan is foolproof. you have to make certain decisions in a business. so you weigh your choices and see what comes out better. losing money by losing customers or losing money to chargebacks.

I couldn't give you a timeframe unfortunately. I got some training on the program in January or sometime around then. As for it being a defacto chargeback stopper, it could very well be (except for both merchant fraud and cardholder fraud ie. stolen cards or people reporting their cards as stolen to get away from transactions)

[BUMP]


cause there's so useful info
(yes, i am biased cause i started the thread, but oh well)

I am glade to see some one here is giving alot of input on all this


for the charge back matters all i can do if tell on how they done us when we had a retail shop ,
I had a lady go there and buy something from us ,, then trun and charged it back ,,,, it was a braclet that she got from one of our store`s
This we around 6 years ago so thing yes have changed but it was with our bank and we said we was got to fight it and we did and then it went to court ,, the lady had to show up there and i was the one that sold it to her , well before she had ever got there i told the clark what she looked like and to a order book we had there at the shop and showed them what she had got ..

Well to show what a dumm hahahaha this was not only she show up there but she was wearing what she had bought from our shop .. there i thought the bank people was going to kill some one ,, they was hot and the people went off on her ,,, i know that us a item she got and had her sign we was able to fight it and was very lucky ,,,

it just sucks that there isnt a better way we can keep these jerks from doing this ..

I sell content now and i had made the change over . I will only take money three ways

1 CASH !!!!
2 BANK WIRE !!!
3 WESTERN UNION .
SO FARE LOST NOT ONE SALE ,,,, ... BUT I FEEL FOR ALL THE GUYS WITH THE PAYSITES AND THIS BULLS SHIT THEY ALL HAVE TO DEAL WITH ..

:( :( :(

We have accounts at 4 banks here, 2 of them national. All of them will tell you the exact same thing regarding killing a debit card and getting a replacement. generally up to 10 days, and they DO make you file paperwork to do so.

another good thing about debit cards is that when people use them to signup for a site, the money comes out of their bank account immediately, so this avoids the shocking credit card bill in the mail 30 days later when people don't even remember what the hell they spent $39.99 on

That can actually happen because of the fucks that put "FREE! We just need your credit card to verify your age", then they make it damn near impossible to find the part in the legalease that says "Oh, but we're going to charge you next month and forever after that".

If free actually meant free... But some people are too stupid to know NOTHING'S FUCKING FREE.

look at an ibill sign up form. they ask for cvv2. but they got this little text also:
The Card ID is used to verify that you have possession of the credit card you are attempting to use. If there is not a Card ID number on the back of your card then please leave the field blank.

my card has a cvv2. when i tested it on a site, i didn't put in a cvv2. my signup went thru no problem. now i gotta try it with a wrong cvv2 and see what happens.

When we enabled CVV2 checking our declines went up maybe 20-30%. Some guys will literally try 20 different 3 number combos before giving up (who knows why). When we enabled ADDRESS and ZIP checking as well, declines went through the roof. A testament to how stupid and dishonest most surfers are, I suppose.

Just to let you guys know, saying AGE VERIFICATION and asking for a credit card number is actually against the VISA Int'l regs. Every site who uses that disclaimer is in direct violation, VISA considers that grounds for immediate termination.

C.

Great job! :thumbsup

I called Ibill yesterday to say if I am visable to Visa now.I want the charge back info so I can defend myself, since Visa is watching my charge backs. I worked for a site a few years ago ,that had their own merchant account and 98% of charge backs were bullshit. I told ibill this and they said I can recommend it to my salesperson. The one that was supposed to call me back from two weeks ago lol. Visa could give pins to everybody on the net , they dont want to do that so they can make money on the charge backs. Its all a cash grab.

I have other ideas to add to online Credit Card security, too bad Visa/MasterCard and the rest of the CCMob won't implement it. (spelling corrected)

Let me recap:

1) CVV2 Obligatory (& Address etc) - & verified by CC servers
2) PIN for regular purchases - IPIN for online purchases

Additions to protect all involved:

3) An additional code - which changes every month & is on the statement ( this would confirm that the person making the purchase has seen the statement)
4) Putting the mother's maiden name (you have to put this on your application)
5) Maybe give a different card number for online purchases and putting a fraction of the authorized limit for online purchases.
Big ticket items need a telephone call & info verified by the CC center to unblock the funds.

** Most importantly - anyone who disputes an online purchase and is proven to have benefitted from the purchase/charge - gets fined - to compensate the merchant.**

So anybody who wants to try online fraud:

1) Has to have the actual card with them to have the CVV2 info
Has to have the person's billing address
2) Has to have the IPIN number
3) Has to have received a statement in order to have the monthly code to purchase.
4) Has to know the cardholder's mother's maiden name
5) If a different number is given for online purchases, the *fraud* artist - even if he's gotten through all the other barriers, he won't have the Virtual Credit Card number and won't know the spending limit.
6) If people would get fined for disputing something to the full extent (not having contacted to say they remembered what the purchase was) and they did benefit from the product or service or membership, there would be alot less bogus disputes.


The other point I'd want to make is I know that people will say that this is going too far - but in the end, it'll give surfers more of a secure feeling of shopping online.

This would also have to be implemented simultaneously worldwide, not at card renewal.


Ok....everyone tell me to shut up now :)