As far as Saddam, he annexed a country and has publicly stated he would like to wipe Israel off the face of the planet. Shouldn't matter where you are from -- what's there to downplay there?

Saddam is a megalomaniac hell-bent on leaving this Earth in a cloud of dust, death, and destuction. he has stated this. He has demonstrated this.

Leave him alone and he will prove the US right. Do you feel Saddam has changed? Maybe he is a better man than he was 10 years ago?

And why do you think all this war talks and war waging starts just now?

Saddam has been Saddam for years and now suddenly Bush is in so much hurry to attack that he forgets to eat his lunch.

Why can't he wait for UN to try to solve this out? Jesus, USA has been waiting for years, what made it run out of patience all of a sudden?

p.s. just one possible answer: how about that the war against Iraq would just be natural continuation of war against terror?

p.s.s I don't really believe USA will attack, because diplomacy will win here. But some people seem to believe that USA should and it WILL attack

I don't get this point. Are you saying that if person A is evil, person B couldn't talk about person A because person B is evil, too.

instead of taking this thread as a threat to the coherency of your ideas of this world, why can't you take it easy and take it as a DISCUSSION between people who DO come from different cultures?

Let's assume I know NOTHING about Americans (like you said). Would it then be a good idea to keep my mouth shut forever. Wouldn't that be great for my ignorance? I see discussions like these as possibilities between people to get rid of their stereotypes, don't you agree?

Yes we should have let Soviets invade our country and then attack Nazis together with Soviets. Stalin was such a great guy. Damn Finnish politicians, what must they have been thinking at the time?

maybe they didn't realize back then that I would have wanted to speak RUSSKIJ right now and code hitbots and earn 200 usd per month

We still chatting about Saddam? Fuck him... just concentrate on the subject matter of the thread... In case ya forgot, it's called "American Illusion called FREEDOM"

What freedom?... There ain't any - tis the most "unfree" country in the Western world wrapped up in laws and rules that would suffocate ya - just my "opinion" - (and shit, - don't even want to "discuss" it) - just sample a little on this thread...

http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...threadid=82172

Peace!

And why do you think all this war talks and war waging starts just now?

------------------------------------

Many reasons.

Americans are divided over the Saddam issue. You know where Clinton stood. You know where Bush stood. Bush is in office. Not Clinton.

Another interesting point that came to my mind.

"You're either with us or against us!"

One of the greatest sentences in the recent world politics. So fucking simple, yet so hard to understand, but VERY effective psychologically.

First, who gave Bush the authority to force people to make a choice between yes or no. Bush tried to take away my freedom for a neutral stance?

What is more interesting, though, that after 9/11 people all over the world did say "Hell yeah, I'm with you! Go get them Bush. terrorism must be stopped"

Human is a consistent being. When he made a choice to be "with US", he made a fucking marriage vow. It's easy to make, but harder to break.

If Bush didn't make this clever sentence, there would be even more anti-war people all over the world, because being AGAINST the possible Iraqi war wouldn't damage the consistency of people's thoughts (they never had to make that choice between "with or against us")

Jesus, USA has been waiting for years, what made it run out of patience all of a sudden?

----------------------------------

I think the sudden realization that terrorist groups could get enough money, resources, and planning together to kill 1000s of Americans and knock down our largest buildings .. and that there were people motivated enough to to do this.

If there had been no 9/11, there would be no plans against Saddam right now. In many (not all) Americans minds, the world changed that day - enough that the US will be pro-active and attempt to eliminate threats before they happen.

Are there political and monetary motivations behind war? Of course. There always have been.
From Rome to Genghis Kahn to Hitler - ambition, greed, and pride have motivated one nation to attack another. Are there here? Yes, also. Is Saddam a dangerous enough threat to the world that he should be removed from power? Some of us Americans think so -- and we will.

Wanna know how many Americans feel?

When Europe was at war, America spent it's money and sent it's boys over to die. When America was attacked, people the world over said "America deserved it." or "This is what America gets for it's policies". How many troops did X send to help the US in Afghanistan?

We should still send troops all over the world because of what happened in the 1940's?

Maybe I should support the neonazi movement because nazis sold Finns guns during WW2 and saved us from the Soviet threat.

Labret, know any contacts here?

If it is about weapons of mass destruction, how about Pakistan, India, Iran, North Korea, Russia, China, France etc.

And lets not forget the largest producer of weapons of mass destruction, the USA

Mika - you quoted out of context .. you need all this:

Wanna know how many Americans feel?

When Europe was at war, America spent it's money and sent it's boys over to die. When America was attacked, people the world over said "America deserved it." or "This is what America gets for it's policies". How many troops did X send to help the US in Afghanistan?

---
Do many Americans feel this way? Yes. The 1940s was long ago - but not long enough that some of those that fought still aren't alive. I imagine another generation or so and the debt will expire unpaid and forgotten -- errr -- unless you count what Nokia has added to the US economy ;-)

The reason that freedom and fighting terror are important.. perhaps now europe will wake up.. (but probably wont)

Bomb in Finland..

Nobody is safe as long as nuts like Saddam, Osama & Arafat roam the earth freely..

I went to that dumblaws website and most countries have only a few.

The USA & England seem to have the most. Funny website.

I get it. So another generation in AMERICA, not Europe. Maybe people will acquire a new view of the surrounding world in Europe faster than in America. Americans, according to you, feel that Europeans owe Americans something because of ww2. Europeans don't feel they owe anymore. See? Europeans.. slightly faster? it's been only.. what .. 60 years soon.

Of course we could debate whether Europeans still SHOULD owe Americans something because of ww2, but in that case my question, that should I support neonazi movement because nazis helped Finns in ww2, holds.

Fuck. After waking up haven't checked the news. Yesterday evening they told it was a gas explosion. Time to start watching domestic news now, I mean this is FUCKING HUGE in Finland. Nothing like this rarely happens.

I was actually just next to the place. What really boggles the mind is that why in the fucking world would someone blow up a bomb in a place like that. It basically is away from everything...
*shrug*.

I'm still pretty sure it wasn't a terrorist act, it was probably some pissed employee who go fired.

Mika,

If that bomb had been planeted by thugs from the middle east and killed 3000 of your countrymen you would know why we aren't giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Hope it is an isolated incident as I wouldn't wish 9-11 or anything like it on anyone.

But one question: What do you define as freedom?

yeah except there was some show for children or something, and the bombing took place right next to it? or something like that .. still unclear.. whatever, but involving children is more horrible if it was intentional

Well these things can and do happen.. look at hamas & arafat.. they have blown up school buses & discos full of kids several times.. a fact the world and in particular europe seems to forget very quickly after each atrocity.. these kind of people have no morals and no fear of death.. they will kill anyone and everyone if they can... of course israel will get blamed as usual..

Mika,

I like you. I think you're the funniest person here.

"See? Europeans.. slightly faster? "

Yup. Let's compare the whole of Europe to America as far as progress since WW II. What is that now - like 44 countries or did I miss an annexation or secession?

Maybe The Republic of Finland's form of government is better than the Republic for which the United States stands for.

By the way, when y'all gonna put yer own satellite in space rather than mooching off the Swedes? Don'cha know the Space race started more than 50 years ago!

That's for the cellphone, Finland!

Yes - that is actually progress. Czech and Slovakia should be separate as they are now . Ask anyone in those countries. Same goes for Baltic countries and many other countries. What kept the status quo was the Cold War.. So progress couldn't take place. I'm glad USA won the cold war, so we could move on here in Europe

:thumbsup

I like you,too. Your articles are some of the best stuff I have ever read in the Net

We sell cells, buy satellites. We sell paper, buy coffee. That's called international trade. Idea was originally presented a long long time ago. So nothing new here :)

Or should I have my own coffee plantation in the back yard?

What a bunch of crapola. America joined the war for two reasons:

1: They were attacked.

2: Sooner or later they would have faced Hitler, since his presece was a threat to ALL the peace-loving people out there, not just Europeans.

USA does what it does to further it`s own interests, not because they feel like being nice...

JohnnyRebel,

You must be illiterate. Can't read. Can't comprehend.

I said "If there had been no 9/11, there would be no plans against Saddam right now"

You said "America joined the war for two reasons:
1: They were attacked. "

I said "Are there political and monetary motivations behind war? Of course. There always have been.
From Rome to Genghis Kahn to Hitler - ambition, greed, and pride have motivated one nation to attack another. Are there here? Yes. also"

You said "USA does what it does to further it`s own interests, not because they feel like being nice..."

Eeh, my fault...guess I am a bit slow...

Sorry:glugglug

Pure hersay by the media.
Saddam is a madman.. But not as ruthless as the media make him out to be.
- Dont Forget ( Saddam is a Usa Creation! ) !
USA Put him into power and thats a fact!

I don't think a madman is in charge in Pakistan, India, Iran, Russia, or in China. There seems to be one in charge of North Korea, and in the case of France who knows? Bush may be a little slow but a madman, no.

Is anyone paying attention here?
- Iraq started a ten year war with Iran for reasons I still cannot understand, and during this war Iraq did indeed use poison gas against Iran.
- Iraq invaded Kuwait without reason or purpose other than to exploit the riches of Kuwait. DID YOU NOT SEE WHAT IRAQ DID TO KUWAIT? IRAQ RAPED THEM.
- During this war it launched missiles at other countries, again without reason.
- After surrendering Iraq refuses to agree to the terms of the surrender. Furthermore, Iraq is shooting off missiles at US planes enforcing the surrender terms put in place by the UN.

This fucker has to go. Yesterday.

What if the US started a war with Mexico, shot off missiles at Cuba, then gassed the entire population of New Jersey..... If the US did this the entire world population would be screaming at the US.

And now were going to take him out.

Whilst were talking about WW2.

Where was the support from Europe after they were freed? No one went to South Asia to help us! No one!!

Thanks for nothing!!

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

I don't believe that for a minute. This was a confrontation that had to happen sooner or later.

Actually, the Australians were loyal/foolish enough to do it. Why should the Europeans, who had watched one of their own get their asses kicked (on Uncle Sam's dime), rush off into insanity just because we did? And besides, if you stand in Paris or Berlin and look west, you know what lies on the horizon? NATO was hard-pressed to spare OUR OWN troops ... couldn't have afforded too many more pissing their lives away in an excercise in futility without upsetting the stategic balance.

Originally posted by Ad3pt


If the cliche "history repeats itself" is true. There are disturbing/sobering similarities between the US and ancient Rome.

ive been saying this for years :thumbsup

dear lord, what is the world coming to? i agree with you.

Actually the Roman empire serves as example to most empires.... would that most empire last for 500 years or so :)

Then that would be another 270 years. LOL We'll all be fucking ashes by then.

if I can be trusting books they are teaching me with, Finland should be speaking German if not for Amerikan army, and then Russian after that.

Mika you should be thanking Amerika, not talking bad about it

Tell that to the thousands of British Servicemen who were starved and tortured to death in the Japanese concentration camps. Your history is not the best, is it?

Saddam helped plan a coup in 1968 to overthrow the current regime and was elected to Vice President of the Revolution Command Council. In 1979, he was elected president of Iraq - "elected" if you prefer.

How did the US "put Saddam in power"? He had been gaining in power in the Iraqi political game for more than 10 years by then. In 1976, the US has been secretly arming the Kurds, not Saddam.

Then yes, the US supported Iraq vs. Iran in 1980, after Saddam had already ascended into power. No wonder given Iran had held 50 Americans hostage in 1979. It was seen as the lesser of two evils at the time.

Would you care to point them out complete with analysis of the differences and how the similarities are more important than the differences?

Where in the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire does the US best fit?

Are you expecting the US to split into the Western US and the Eastern US like the Roman Empire did once and for all in 395 AD?

You may find a lot of similarities here:
Gibbon, Edward The history of the decline and fall of the Roman empire

Mic,

Gibbon. A classic work. I have the ABRIDGED edition around here somewhere.

What in particular stands out to you?

Gibbon's claim that the Roman Empire fell because of the moral decline of the empire or something else?

Please summarize.

Why America is in a better position than The Rome Empire.

1. Better accounting. Have you ever tried even simple math with Roman numerals?

2. Better transportation system. "All roads lead to Rome". Well, thats a good idea except every damned damn barbarian tribe in Europe was able to follow them straight to the Capital. Damned Vandals and Visigoths!"

3. Better language. Have you ever tried learning Latin?

4. The economy, stupid! The Roman economy declined because of a glut of cheap foreign togas and chariots.

5. You ARE aware that Caesar's Palace has been moved to Las Vegas. Correct?

Moral decline ( I think in US moral level right now even lower then in Roman Empire )



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