Freedom is not something you can measure like a length of cloth.

I've visiited USA many times and have family there, there are parts of the US I would love to live in and parts I would not.

But back to freedom, most of the US seems obsesed by consumerism and "Keeping up with the Jones". If there is a new designer label, fad or gadget they have to have it or so it seems.

Some parts of the US are very free if you are the right colour, religion, creed or gang, if not you better be careful. Try opening a porn shop in some States and see how long your "freedom" lasts.

Is Finland more free than the US, I do not know and it would be stupid to state such a thing unless you knew the laws of both countries. Probably both got laws that are good and bad for "Freedom"

This thread is kids blowing off. When the most powerful nation on the earth is about to launch itself and as many as it can drag along with it into a war. Why war? The reasons seem vague.

Saddam has only killed Arabs and Muslims so far and probably is too inteligent to do otherwise. A threat to the West? Has not been so far and probably never will, has he got weapons of mass destruction, definately.

But Bush should take the UN inspectors option and when they are slung out then move in the troops. He has no right to call for a change of goverment in a foriegn country and no right to send in troops and declare war when there is an alternative.

Afghanistan was right, they were harbouring a known teerorist who has launched many attacks on the US and it's citizens.

And considering almost half of all Americans live below the poverty level, or under a mountain of debt.

12clicks,

You got a fan here, not sure whether he can be of any value to you but at least you got a fan!

Hey.
Every place has its wrongs and rights. I have been to Finland and it is a nice place. The people are very progressive and hey a tiny country like that actually stood up to and threw out the Russians..... (historical stuff)

On the other hand, if you are successful in Finland you get taxed up to 65-70% That is freedom? When I was there some Somalians hijacked a train (yes a train of all things) so you have bad guys too. Wait till the faceless EU gets ahold of you......
I will show you freedom then. Let the EU form ... they are already talking about a federal constitution. Finland will be reduced to the status of Idaho....

Sure, here in America the word freedom is tossed around alot and it doesn't mean squat. It really doesn't. You are free as long as you work 15 hours a day, are up to your freakin' ears in debt and don't have any time to do squat. Financial slavery.

I have always maintained that laws are complete and utter bullshit. The law is always the will of the stronger party at any given moment. On a philosophical level, the law is more of an ability to enforce an opinion than anything else.

All I know is the good and honest people wind up paying for the fuck ups and I for one am sick of it. The disconnect between the people and government is far far far too great.

Now can someone please explain to me what the hell we are gonna do about this Visa thing?

In case you've been asleep, the asshole running Iraq has had quite a long time to accept and cooperate with the "alternatives".... he's been warned repeatedly... more alternatives offered.... more warnings..... yet even more alternatives.... leniency.... warnings.... more alternatives.....

the time for games is over.

I say now that Bush has congressional approval, he should lay it out ONE LAST TIME for that ignorant fuckstick and attempt to go in with inspectors. If Hussein gives his attitude this time....

bring the fucking hammer down.

Finland is about as diverse a country as a bowl of wheaties. Here we have to incorporate a lot of people/cultures/backgrounds etc. Yes certain states make their own laws but you can choose where you want to live. If you prefer more conservative laws then you move to a state where your views are common place. Same if you are liberal/moderate. The point is there are a lot of choices here and we can choose where we want to be.

I am afraid there is more to it than that.

What about Castro and Quadaffi?

Why dont we fix them as well. We been warning them for a very long time.

Yeah. That's why they (the guys above) came up with the concept of "freedom". Even poor people want to be free. That's the only thing they have (or think they have) left. Freedom.

When the government wants to defend military spending/action, for example, they use the word "freedom" and "securing the freedom of American people" instead of speaking directly of "money" and "taking care of *financial* interests".

maybe we should.

yes....

Americans have the freedom to hunt Saddam :Graucho

That´s good no? :glugglug

They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!

http://students.bradley.edu/~kambroso/BraveHeart.JPG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. That's why they (the guys above) came up with the concept of "freedom". Even poor people want to be free. That's the only thing they have (or think they have) left. Freedom.

When the government wants to defend military spending/action, for example, they use the word "freedom" and "securing the freedom of American people" instead of speaking directly of "money" and "taking care of *financial* interests".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and I suppose that having prices around the EU jump about 25-30% ever since the Euro was introduced isn't a step towards financial slavery? The Italians are selling German tourists the same exact thing for 1 Euro that used to cost 1 German Mark.
1 euro has much more value than 1 German Mark did.
As a Fin, you have no central bank left. It is all handled by the big hotshots somewhere in Belgium or something.

Read a book called "Animal Farm" This has nothing to do with might some might quickly conclude. It is about animals that revolt against humans and all of a sudden the PIGS decide that they are the smartest and want to start runing things.......

This is why true communism never worked and never will ..... This is why compassion and tolerance are bullshit terms used by those that wish to gain something. Try disagreeing with someone that has preached "compassion and tolerance" They will have zero tolerance for your views.

People are fucked up no matter where they are from and as a result we constantly have our freedoms revoked. Eventually it all boils over, a war starts and then we shut up for a while....... and start destroying shit all over again.

If the cliche "history repeats itself" is true. There are disturbing/sobering similarities between the US and ancient Rome.

true, but they had chariots and lions.... we got M1 tanks and Patriot missiles. :glugglug

Absolutely.

mika, you bring up some valid points, but overal, you're an idiot.

Of all that you said.. this jumped out at me...

Did ya know that the 16th amendment.. the amendment that supposedly established the income tax.. was never ratified??

gotta love it....

Thanks. And thanks.

So was that YOUR point?

He tried to have Bush Sr. killed a few years back, so he would do otherwise...

I visited New York for two weeks, and these are my impressions:


VERY noisy city. Lots of fat people. Very patriotic. Not enough good-looking women.

And very, very friendly. I was truly impressed. Gotte be the friendliest place that I have ever been, and I`ve been quite a few places...

:thumbsup

You think New York is friendly? Where do you live? Iraq?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by charly

Saddam has only killed Arabs and Muslims so far and probably is too inteligent to do otherwise. A threat to the West? Has not been so far and probably never will, has he got weapons of mass destruction, definately.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He is a threat to Israel.
Arabs purposely let the Palestinians and Jews torment each other so as to have political ammunition to fuel hate.

I mean, here in Norway, all the so-called cops are pathethic. They really enjoy pushing people around...Guess they got beaten all the way trough school when they were kids...

A friend got jumped by three bouncers that gave him a good whoppin`. He called the police. They "persuaded" him not to press charges, so he called them incompetent...guess who spent the night in the slammer :1orglaugh

But in NY, the cops really deserve respect(in my opinion). A poor homeless guy lying in the strees got picked up by two cops, and they were sooo gentle with the poor bastard, and looked truly concerned, to my big suprise. They gently put him in the car and drove him off to a shelter for food and a bed.

Here, they would have bullied him awake and sent him packing

Small things like these gave me a newfound respect for the US of A.

Glad you enjoyed yourself. Our best women aren't on the streets though. Let me assure you there's more 10's here than anywhere in the states sans L.A. and Miami.

This is a funny thread.

Nope, Oslo in Norway...and god damn it sucks:ak47:

A) While some (maybe even many) dumb Americans will consider themselves way more free than the average European, the intelligent ones will most certainly realize that the differences aren't that big. So, in short, I don't think you are right on this point.

B) Because it sounds good, and might convince more people than saying "We are doing this because we like oil and the weapon industry".
Every government uses propaganda, especially when it comes to things such as war.

__________________________________________________
Pornwolf wrote:

Our best women aren't on the streets though. Let me assure you there's more 10's here than anywhere in the states sans L.A. and Miami.
__________________________________________________

I am in Miami. Thank God for the Lation women. Personal opinion...They are far and away the sexiest and most pleasant to be around.

Talking about freedom:

http://www.dumblaws.com/countries/co...ry=Netherlands

Latin.. I mean latin....

Eh? No flaming I just didn't bother reading the post because the above alone shows you haven't a clue and obviously don't know what you're talking about. If the rest of the post has points so strange and wrong as these it's a total waster of several minutes of anyones life even trying to read it. The only bit with any truth is the TV part but then that's the price you pay for some commercial free TV and radio stations. I'd rather pay $150 a year and have that than be forced to watch commercials every 5 mins on every station.

The other points though are just plain odd and wrong.

Mika,
Where have you been reading that you read such a statement?

Liverpool

It is illegal for a woman to be topless in public except as a clerk in a tropical fish store.

ok....

hehe norway.. tomorrow at Bucharest we'll teach you soccer... I'll be there supporting our boys :thumbsup

a. Yep you may be right here - my point (a) wasn't so much thought out. I just find it strange that all the US wars and everything is always related to *freedom* for some reason ?!
In most European countries people wouldn't even understand if politicians tried to tell them that their freedom is threatened. Cultural independency? Yes. National identity? Yes. Financial interests? Yes. But freedom? How the fuck could someone take away my freedom in the current political world situation..

so I quickly draw the conclusion that because freedom seems to be so valued and so much talked about in America (compared to Europe), then maybe Americans think that their freedom is somehow extraordinary.

Chris, I guess that's an answer for you too.

b. yes that was my point. I agree with you. Freedom is used as an excuse or a word without true meaning. It's a shame why so many people fall on that. Wars are getting declared for the FREEDOM's sake. Jesus, like the superior military power that could probably alone beat the rest of the world (militarily speaking), could in anyway have the freedom of its citizens threatened by terrorists or Saddams or whatever.

probably the most important 6 words you have said - kinda sums it all up
:thumbsup

PleasurePays:

*probably the most important 6 words you have said - kinda sums it all up *

On that we agree!:Graucho

Teach soccer?

How long would soccer camp last exactly?

Day 1: Kicking ball
Day 2: Giving Blowjobs

There is no Day 3.

Yeah right. That's just the way how you should discuss with people who come up with reasonable argumentation instead of "Nuke em all"

And my point is still valid about many Americans falling on that *freedom* bullshit that the media, government and president are giving them. I guess too much CNN will destroy your brain eventually

nuke 'em all.

fuckwit

You are confusing the well scripted, well rehearsed speaches of one person with the feelings of 250,000,000.

its a huge problem in the world. one interesting thing about Europe and the US is that in Europe when there is a news story, they refer to the country - i.e. "Iraqis said XXX" or the "Americans said XXX". In the US, the media does not generally do that and they will refer more often to individuals. This is big reason why countries as whole are so biased against each other.

Europeans treat each other like sports teams - "the Italians did this" - "the French said that" and so on. Here, they would refer to the relevant person "Prime Minister Tony Blair said..."

this is the beginning of a lot of political confusion and tension. You are causing this as well by your ignorant debates about "americans" when even a cursory scan of the board, or watching, reading or listening to American media would show that most people are deeply divided on most issues.

show me all the posts and quotes of people debating any politics and standing behind the word "freedom". you brought it up. no one else did. Bush may use the word "freedom" "defending freedom" etc etc when it comes to whacking out Saddam Hussein - but you have not heard one person here say that.

I dont see any connection to fucking up saddam hussein and "freedom". I see a deep need to take him out based on the threat he represents to the world, his past track record, his illegal weapons programs, his defiance of the UN and UN Security Council. He is a physical threat to people in the world and particularly in the region. he is not a threat to "freedom"

you are the one taking the words of a few and extrapolating it to apply it to many.

you are wrong.

America is ignorant of Europe, its history and its cultures.
Europe is equally ignorant of Americans and American Culture.

you are showing your ignorance right now and trying to disguise it as a serious ideas about people you dont know and a place you know nothing about.

mika:

I hear wot your saying ... can understand some of it.. CNN is not "news"... tis just a very low grade "newstainment" service.. they got their problems as well tying to get a balance to keep the shrinking ratings up - any decent news editor there knows well he is just pandering to the masses (hopefully!). If you were a serious journalist ya'd be kinda wincing at having to give time to the "this weeks Hollywood box office takings", "this weeks computer games" and "Celebrity corner" shit - tis all bollocks. I am sure US folks interested in any sensible news look elsewhere..

I live where I can get a range of international TV channels.. fortunately. It got so bad last year, even US people here were asking the transmission folks to dump CNN.. they were sick of watching crap. In their wisdom they asked the BBC to start transmissions... and generally they seem pacified by this.

:glugglug

What makes you think many Americans buy into the propaganda semantics used by our Government? There, of course, are some Americans that do, but as a collective we are suspicious about virtually everything that our government does and as a collective we view our news media with a jaundiced eye. You, I think, pick up on the views of the few Americans that suit your prejudiced and/or misguided, misinformed, view of Americans and liberally apply it to the people of the collective America.

The simple fact that it is BEING USED. I don't think the people who make up this stuff in the goverment are so stupid that they didn't do their research and used something that wasn't proven to work

who says he "thinks"

he makes a lot of wrong assumptions based on things he does not understand and draws whatever conclusion will help him to sleep best at night.

that is not "thinking"

"thinking" would require objectivity vs attacking
"thinking" is about learning - not centering your thoughts around convincing yourself you are right.
"thinking" would require some degree of self questioning and self doubt
"thinking" would force a person to try to understand all sides of the issue

"thinking" is not about long, megalomaniacal rants and delusional ideas of how the world works and defying anyone to challenge it... so you he can go off on bizarre "conspiracy theory" tangents that are equally ignorant.

mika:

Yea.. the fact that it is being used is kinda naive and an insult to people's intelligence... but also think theking is right.. only assholes actually believe this stuff. I have met (and listened hard - ya learn a lot by "listening" *g*), many very bright US folks, and they ain't stupid - they don't trust what they hear as theking says.. All governments come out with some crap from time to time.. they are politicians, wot ya expect?! :Graucho

"propoganda" is any view or opinion expressed by a government that conflicts with your own ideas of "whats really happening"

There you go. Based upon that statement it is apparent that you do not understand our government or the phsycic of the American people. Checkmate, game over.