moeloubani

Does anyone know how to do this? By watermarking I mean adding an invisible way to know where pictures are coming from if they're being posted around. I know it's possible I just don't know how it would tie in to a website and a members area. Does it even help?

The Ghost

Business thread bump

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The Duck

Good question.

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dready

You'd need a digimarc enterprise key. Though it would create quite a load, you could even watermark every image dynamically when being served to the surfer. So then you'd know the member that shared the image, the time they pulled it from your site, etc. Last time I checked, the key was ~$6k and I think that includes the SDK.

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MaDalton

i was actually discussing this just recently with my programmer, but we had no time yet to explore it any further

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stickyfingerz

Well its one of the ideas Ive been putting out there the last 2 or 3 months or so. Im sure there is a way to do it. Overlay a watermark with a code that corresponds to each member. Put in your TOS that if your content is given away and found out in the wild they are subject to being blacklisted from processors, and or sued etc. Start going after the people releasing your content. Should be able to be done server side somehow. Someone needs to make a tool to do this that is easy to implement. Best people to do this would be programs that have non compete upsells such as Webcam companies, dating companies etc. Offer the tool free for simply including an upsell in the paysites members area. Still give the paysite owner a percentage of sales of the upsell even. Get all the cms companies to make integration simple. Do this industry wide and you'll see your content theft problems start to shrink.

dready

It can be done simply by editing the file headers... but that is easy to strip off. If you want something more robust, digimarc is pretty much it. They hold all the patents for the technology. You can crop, resize, filter, etc. quite a lot before the watermark is finally corruputed. For video, I'm not sure of a comparable system.

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Fap

im not sure waht you mean

stickyfingerz

Well Id think a company with the resources (upsell companies) to develop a tool SIMILAR to what digimarc does should be able to see the possibilities here. ya the file header thing wouldnt work that well. Needs to be for video a mostly transparent code number that would move randomly on the screen in an unobtrusive way. So people couldnt simply black out the code in one spot. This goes again with the "if someone really wants to steal something they will thing". It has to be more of a hassle for people to grab members area content and just upload it somewhere. For the video google video uses a wrapper that uses most any of the video formats out there. It doesnt actually re-encode the video from what I understood.

This industry needs to start thinking "outside" the box again. Mainstream is kicking our ass right now. Look at netflix, vongo, hulu.com all these are doing a streaming only system and making money. Adult needs to push that more for members area stuff. Why should a member paying a monthly 'rental' fee be able to keep a whole members area for just one months billing? Whole thing needs to be changed imo.

stickyfingerz

Yup these threads always die quick. lmao

ilbb

bump for interesting thread

ThumbLord

another bump

DBS.US

We all need to look into new outside the box ideas like product placement.

You can't stop people from stealing your content so we need to find ways to profit when people do give away our content.

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stickyfingerz

Sure that should ALWAYS be part of it. You cant stop no, but you can dissuade. The problem right now is members areas are open floodgates. For a 4.95 trial someone gets to be a hero to countless people by uploading to tube sites and sharing forums. What punishment do those that upload content they dont own get? None. Why arent they worried? No way it can be traced. Putting a marker on the content that allows us to see who shared the content makes them accountable. Sure there will be people grabbing with stolen credit card numbers etc etc. You cant stop it completely we all know that, but we can slow it down to a smaller flow. Make strong tos's for members areas. Get together with the major processors and setup a blacklist. People caught sharing get blacklisted, and cant buy more memberships to any of the sites. This would of course benefit the processors bottom line too.

If the members areas are left wide open like they are now you may as well just give up and put your members areas public and put up dating and webcam ads on there to make money off your content. Sooner people figure this out the better. Enough fucking around with trying to shut down the tubes and torrent sites etc. You cant and wont do it. You will get some small victories, but that will be it. The content will pop up on another site, and eventually it will end up on sites that cant be touched due to where they host and live. There is money in it so people will continue to do it. The only way to stop it, is to stop the flow of new content. Once that system is in place and members areas are secure it will make much more sense to go after what is already out there.

SO who is going to step up and do this? Ill be glad to discuss my ideas on this subject to anyone who is interested, or has the resources to make something like this happen. Stop with the crying and whining over spilled milk, and figure out how to stop spilling it.

Ron Bennett

Forget watermarking, etc ... instead use a method that mapmakers have long used to protect their maps (both paper and electronic) - they add extraneous data, such as some some short non-existent roads.

Insert an extra image or two into galleries that's unique for each member - more specifically, the extra image itself could be derived from the same raw image, but dynamically generated with slightly differing dimensions / file size, etc that's unique for each member.

Most people stealling images / video are lazy - so it's highly likely the "unique" image / video would be shared too allowing you an easy way to traceback to who leaked it without using watermarks, etc.

Hope this makes sense - read up more on how mapmakers protect their maps for a better explaination / ideas.

Speaking of google - their protection method of using a wrapper (as another poster pointed out), while simplistic, is amazingly effective - most people, including many techies, are clueless as to how to save YouTube videos - It doesn't stop the highly determined, but it's good enough for eliminating most unauthorized copying.

Ron

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Iron Fist

Right on the money They can compare sets and try to figure out which picture is the one thats not supposed to be there... but it's no use!

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Dungeon Master

You sir are delusional...lmao

This is the biggest waste of time I have ever seen. This is as stupid as people trying to ban Napster in the 90's or VCRs or blank cassettes and Zerox machines in the 80's or for that matter, radio and TV. People will always find a way to get free content in whatever form it evolves. I remember back when I was a kid, my sister had a Pat Benatar cassette that had a whole speech printed in it, by the record label, basically forbidding the purchaser from dubbing it and sharing it with friends. It was as laughable then as this whole subject is now. At DungeonCorp, like most adult companies, we not only give away free content to affiliates... we design and host it for you. Now we are even working on free RSS feeds so that you don't even have to do your own gallery updates... we'll update them for you through the feed.

You people have to come to the realization that success is not built on trying to STOP people from having what they want. PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO GET FREE CONTENT, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT. So to use this for your own success, you can either be one of the SMART people who create some temporary system (that will eventually get cracked like everything else does) to sell to people like you, to prevent others from getting free content. Or you can find a way to profit from the fact that people are really really interested in getting free content on the web. But trying to stop people from sharing media has never EVER worked... EVER in the history of human existence!!! Why do you think the printing press was invented??? (Because books had to be handwritten which meant only certain people could get books... and human beings just don't like that shit).

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quantum-x

Had a solution for video for this for ages, emailed over 200 sponsors, noone was interested in paying a very, very modest fee for content protection.

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iseeyou

Sometimes, I think the big companies both in porn and mainstream really are not opposed to copyright theft because they seem to do so little to fight it. I am a very small guy in this biz and I see their stuff being stolen while I protect my stuff. The big players should be ashamed that they don't hire someone full time to monitor their stuff online.

here is what I do.

1. Pics/vids should be large to make sharing more difficult. I suggest video clips larger than 100MB and pics larger than 500KB. zipped photo sets larger than 100MB.

2. member areas should be monitored/regulated. i use killersecurity. it gives me almost realtime info about which members are logged in and how much they download and which ip addresses.

3. block or restrict autodownloaders in the member area. set daily download limits. if they want to exceed the daily download limit, they can join another site.

4. monitor the main file sharing forums, tube sites, newsgroups for your stuff. Also, search google every few days and check server logs for anything suspicuous.

5. If you discover file sharing, then immediately take action:

A. If only small time sharing, simply removing the content may be enough. Perhaps send a warning email to all suspected members and remind them not to do it.

B. If the person is very determined and there is massive file sharing, then take more serious action. Create list of suspects. Monitor users. I have been able to determine which user is sharing based on his date of membership (he will not normally have sets which were added after his membership ended). If he is a current member, he may be uploading while he is logged into your site. By correlating times when he was logged in and when your stuff was posted on another site, you may be able to find him.

C. For serious offenders, put their name/address on an offender list on your site as an example to others. Usually, just threatening to put people on such a list will scare them straight. I personally feel bad about damaging a person's reputation but putting some heads on pikes is an effective way to put fear into the other members. You can bargain with people to get their names removed from the offender list. It is not necessary to keep them on the list permanently. Be careful about thieves with stolen credit cards because the credit card holder is innocent in this case.


I do all of the above without any expensive software/hardware. Of course, it would be better to watermark all downloaded content but even this method is not enough. Thieves may buy memberships with stolen credit cards and there is very little which paysite owners can do about it. Also, if you sue someone, he may later say that his credit card was stolen. I find that threatening to sue or add the person to the offender list works is enough to stop the sharing.

I suggest blocking/redirecting all traffic from countries which do not have strong copyright laws. It is a nice idea to sell your stuff in emerging markets but the risk is too great. I block all countries with relaxed copyright laws and countries with few or no members.

Here is my question:

Why is it so easy to find so many sites offering copyright picture/video downloads? Are the paysite owner's too busy to care? Or they like their member's area stuff to be freely distributed? I want to know.

Ron Bennett

They are giving members what they want - easy, fast access to content...

Downloading in bulk is convenient, and can actually save bandwidth / less server load - better to have a member download an entire gallery at once than doing numerous requests. Obviously allowing downloading of an entire member's area at once is a bad idea, but usually ok at gallery level.

Time is money ... consider how much time and effort you personally put into tracking down users, sending C&Ds, etc ...

Is all of that truly making a difference - that is to say, if you stopped doing much of that, would your sales be overly affected?

On a related note, many pay sites (not all because there are members who do mind) have their website name, etc on all of their images / videos in member areas - so when such content gets shared, the site gets exposure and hence additional traffic they can work to convert to more paid members.

Ron

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L-Pink

Good thread moe

stickyfingerz

Can you hit me up at some point about this? The ones that need this pitched to is like I said the companies with free upsells. Develop the tool and give it away free just for including their upsell. Is your solution able to do it pretty fast, or is it server intensive? To me this is where the focus should be with the content theft issue. Im not talking the canned dvd licensed stuff as much as I am the paysite exclusive stuff. After all if its actually out on dvd then you are dealing with a different deal, and people will just rip dvds and upload them. Has to be industry wide change done and then it will be easier to stop the copyright thefts.

stickyfingerz

This is a tad different than the music issue. You cant watermark a song. And if you would or really read the thread you would see that exact thing. YES they can always get content. Why make it super easy for it to happen. Just by making it a hassle it will severely slow it down.

iseeyou

I doubt I would notice any sales difference TOMORROW or NEXT YEAR if I stopped policing my content. I would like to earn money from the content I produce TODAY for as long as possible. therefore, I am thinking more about 1-5 or more years into the future.

I can imagine that in 10 years or more, when bandwidth and servers are very cheap, there will be sites with full or almost full copies of thousands of member area's. They will be hosted in East Europe, Africa, Asia, South America ... They will employ some kind of rapidshare type setup to stay borderline legal. They will simply give away all those member areas just to get traffic and upsell to something else.

My plan is to not be one of the thousands of sites that is ripped and being freely distributed. My fear is that it won't matter if my site is there or not because I may lose most of my members because they will be too busy downloading free porn to bother with a paysite. This is the reason I am here telling other paysite owners how to stop piracy of their copyright works.

Dungeon Master

As soon as you "severely slow it down" someone will create a way to make it easy again. Just like stealing flash used to be hard to do, but now any teenager can do it and there are tons of free downloads to help them. So how much time are you going to spend chasing something that will never be prevented?

Can you think of any form of media (music or otherwise) that has ever been kept safe from public copying and sharing for any real length of time??? I can't. I'm talking ANY media EVER.

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Axeman

Very good thread. No question our model hasn't adapted very well with the advancement of broadband everywhere. It is far to easy to download a site with a month's charges and come back 6-12 months later to get the rest if need be.

Its getting to the point where the videos may need to be streamed but not downloadable without a expiry date where they no longer work.

For photos it may need to be a slideshow or system where the photos are viewable but not every photos is downloadable. Make a % of the photos downloadable and give a zip with 20% of the set or something for download but not the entire set.

And this being able to watermark with the members username and info attached to it might make it far better for helping to make them think twice if you ended up emailing them with the evidence they downloaded and shared the content with proof. If that started to spread around it may help to curtail it. It won't stop it, but may help.

Gerco

Something I have found very helpful is strongbox's feature of stopping the "spider" downloads of your members area. If they want to grab content, they have to do it manually and 1 thing at a time. It does it by creating dynamic URLS to the actual content I think.

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stickyfingerz

I can't believe someone hasn't came in yet saying how DRM will never work. Always happens even though we are not talking about the old style annoying drm hehe.

As far as someone being able to bypass it, let them bypass what exactly? If the content is marked in a way that is unremovable to the point that it would cause them a lot of hassle they wont bother. YES WE KNOW that you can't stop theft completely. The point is.. Why make it easy for them? The way mentioned in this thread wont inconvenience the normal members any, but will make it a pain in the ass to those trying to give away our content. Sad thing is it would take a some uniting on the part of the industry, so unlikely to happen. People will just continue to cry about tube sites and fight amongst themselves about who is advertising on what site, and who is scum for wanting to continue to make money etc. Fairly simple solution is given. Quantum X says he has a solution that will work. Someone with the money should step up and do this. Pay Qx for his solution and distribute it as a free tool as long as you include their upsell in your members area.

OR we can all continue to cry about spilled milk. Can't put the genie back in the bottle, repeat cliche rinse repeat.

Axeman

Bump for a biz thread

stickyfingerz

Hard to keep these kind of threads on the first page

Catalyst

it can be done.. it is not super hard either..

Why

this can be scripted in PHP without digimarc(which is possible to be removed) but as stated above, it creates a lot of server load.

and even if you could track the images... after you find the image that was stolen, you have to link it to an IP, then subpeona the ISP to give you the owners information, etc etc. its kind of a... not so effective method of dealing with the problem, despite the fact that its a really awesome idea.

MichaelP

Good point but, maybe if the watermark includes the member,s username, then it would be easy for the program to find out which memeber shared the photo/video.... no?

Would be great to fight those Tube Sites

moeloubani

I'm gonna try to find someone to do this, I'll keep everyone updated what I'm gonna get is someone to use PHP to add a watermark to a random image as its downloaded with the IP address stamped on it of the member. Then I'll add a thing to check who is logged on through what IP address and see if it helps, I honestly think it'll do tons to stop at least image sharing, videos I can see it being a huge load so I'm going to try to focus on just pictures.

stickyfingerz

No not important to get the ip. The idea is assign each user name a code that can be crosschecked to see which member downloaded the content. You dont need to goto the isp to get anything as you have all their information from them signing up to the site. I think the images being taken is secondary, to me its more video that is at issue now, though I would like to see it done on any media that is downloaded. So like this.

User A. signs up.

User A. is assigned code 339911

Code 339911 is watermarked to any download they make.

You find content on a tube site, torrent site etc.
You see it is watermarked with code 339911.
You crosscheck that code to see what user downloaded the content.
As being at that point the only person that could of grabbed that content you file a report with the processors. They blacklist user A from buying porn again for 6 months or whatever.

The watermark on video should be very light but at certain parts of the video it moves location and gets more legible, but never so much its annoying. With it moving would be harder to hide the code.

This is more of a scare tactic than anything. Everyone changes their T.O.S. to reflect that we have the right to protect our copyright and brand and those violating may be liable to being sued, blacklisted, prosecution whatever.

Sure there will be lots of issues to get around, but better for the industry to focus on something like this, then to keep crying about tubesites and torrentsites.

stickyfingerz

I thought of doing just usernames at first, but some might feel their privacy is at issue with a username, so hence assign a code that corresponds to the username and other info.

jalami

Oh, so THAT's why I got totally lost on that supposed "shortcut" the other day. Stupid mapmakers.

But seriously, that's one of the best ways to do it, but unlike the mapmakers it would have to be individually tailored per member. I'm assuming mapmakers made one set of extraneous data for their maps so that they could see if their maps were being copied and identify the people distributing copied maps.. in the case of this biz, we see the infringing sites, but we want the very person who's taking the member content and posting to the tube sites.

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moeloubani

maybe someone at getafreelancer will know what they're doing, it might be hard to understand them but sometimes you can find some good work there

http://www.getafreelancer.com/projec...-with-PHP.html

If I get one made and up and going I'll let some people beta test it from here then sell copies for cheap (way less than $6k something like $50)

Tom_PM

I'd think you'd want to use assembly or at most C for such a task for speed/efficiency. Upon file request, insert identifier, serve requested file.

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stickyfingerz

This is really an opportunity for someone to fill a niche out there. Maybe a company similiar to check verification companies. Cant recall the name of the company but they do check verification for retail locations. Cut off the people doing the sharing. Start blacklisting them first, then make a few example cases if you have people offending multiple times. I have a feeling though that no one will try this, and just continue to whine about content theft.

Tom_PM

Use coordinates like on a map. B:17, you sank my "battleship".

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mortenb

I did a script a couple of years ago that inserts the users username into the image Exif data whenever a user loads an image. As others in this thread have mentioned Exif data is pretty easy for the user to remove and it does put a little extra load on the server. BUT, while it is easy to remove exif data, most surfers have no idea it exists and will never ever even consider removing it and in my experience more than 95% don't.

stickyfingerz

lol Some big programs, or some big upsell programs need to step up and see what can be done I think.

FelixFlow

dont waste your time...its VERY easy to defeat, and if you guys think this is some miracle thing thats gonna revolutionize content theft - think again!!!

once surfers realize whats going on, they'll start taking measures to "erase" the info

and its VERY easy to erase, inclusing digimarc crap you guys wanna spend thousands on (check out a free program called jstrip for example)

and as this becomes "standard" the twarting will become "standard" as well - making the technology USELESS



;)

Tom_PM

And what if I insert 4 bits of info into a non-standard part of an image. How you gonna defeat it.

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smax

A 6 month ban on a site ripper is hardly punishment, better off adding something in your TOS that if their watermark shows up being shared you have the right to charge their CC
$xxxx. A ban is nothing, a different CC with a proxy and they back on your site, hit them in the pocketbook and see how they like it.

stickyfingerz

Umm you didnt read the thread I guess. We are talking about watermarks. And on video moving watermarks that randomly move on the video. Not enough to be overly noticeable but enough to be readable. Again again and AGAIN no you cannot stop someone if they want it bad enough, but the idea is to slow down the floodgates. All this content out there isnt from people ripping dvds. Yes there is some, but people with exclusive content shot specifically for their paysite this will be quite helpful. Blacklisting offenders would hopefully start to condition people to realize they are not a hero when they share the content they have bought access to.

stickyfingerz

I agree with that, the only problem there is getting the processors on board with that. I was mainly giving examples of what might be done. Its kind of a fine line. You dont want to come off like a nazi and scare people off from signing up either. There just needs to be consequences of some sort though. The person doing the actual theft is the ones that are uploading it to the sharing sites. Normally those are the ones buying memberships, or the ones that managed to get stolen user/passwords.

The main point of this thread I think is. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and people need to drop the "its impossible" stuff when it concerns locking down content from being 'easily' ripped off.

moeloubani

The way I see it is that it's much easier to go after the few people that upload the videos rather than the masses that watch them. So instead of going after youporn.com find out who just added your video and stop that guy, it might take some work but at least theres a possibility that you could know who is doing what. It can be stripped sure, but any extra work is the deterrent not making it impossible to do.