Breaved Columbine parent before congress - GoFuckYourself.com

theking · 10-06-2002, 09:21 PM

I just received this via E-mail from a friend of mine that lives in Arizona.

>Subject: FW: Columbine update
> >
> > On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a
> > victim of the Columbine High School shootings in
> > Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House
> > Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to
> > our national leaders during this special session of
> > Congress was painfully truthful. They were not
> > prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received
> > well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every
> > teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every
> > psychologist, and every so-called expert! These
> > courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful,
> > penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt
> > that God sent this man as a voice crying in the
> > wilderness. The following is a portion of the
> > transcript:
> >
> >
> > "Since the dawn of creation there has been both good
> > & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain
> > the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The
> > death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and
> > the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other
> > eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their
> > blood cries out for answers."
> >
> >
> > "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain
> > slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain
> > was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the
> > National Club Association. The true killer was Cain,
> > and the reason for the murder could only be found in
> > Cain's heart."
> >
> >
> > "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I
> > was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed
> > at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the
> > NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am
> > not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I
> > don't believe that they are responsible for my
> > daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they
> > need to be defended. If I believed they had anything
> > to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest
> > opponent."
> >
> >
> > "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not
> > just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be
> > forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much
> > of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame
> > lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers
> > themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that
> > expresses my feelings best. This was written way
> > before I knew I would be speaking here today":
> >
> >
> > Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
> > Your words are empty air.
> > You've stripped away our heritage,
> > You've outlawed simple prayer.
> > Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
> > And precious children die.
> > You seek for answers everywhere,
> > And ask the question "Why?"
> > You regulate restrictive laws,
> > Through legislative creed.
> > And yet you fail to understand,
> > That God is what we need!
> >
> >
> > "Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist
> > of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to
> > acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a
> > void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush
> > in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present
> > within our educational systems for most of our
> > nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as
> > theological seminaries. This is a historical fact.
> > What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused
> > to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to
> > hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as
> > Columbine's tragedy occurs - politicians immediately
> > look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately
> > seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to
> > erode away our personal and private liberties. We do
> > not need more restrictive laws.
> >
> >
> > "Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal
> > detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who
> > spends months planning this type of massacre. The real
> > villain lies within our own hearts. Political
> > posturing and restrictive legislation are not the
> > answers. The young people of our nation hold the key.
> > There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will
> > not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do
> > not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out
> > verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million
> > dollar church buildings built while people with basic
> > needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart
> > and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was
> > founded on the principle of simple trust in God!"
> >
> >
> > "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school
> > library and saw his two friends murdered before his
> > very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I
> > defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I
> > challenge every young person in America, and around
> > the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at
> > Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our
> > schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those
> > students be in vain. Dare to move into the new
> > millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation
> > that violates your God-given right to communicate with
> > Him. To those of you who would point your finger at
> > the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to
> > examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
> > My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young
> > people of this country will not allow that to happen!"

Mr.Fiction · 10-06-2002, 09:29 PM

Sounds like some bullshit written by the NRA trying to say that guns had nothing to do with the shootings.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 09:45 PM

Leave it to an emotional parent to completely miss the point.

Sorry if I sound a little jaded, but I live about 30 minutes from Columbine and am subjected to far more of the BS than those of you lucky enough not to live here

UnseenWorld · 10-06-2002, 09:58 PM

So, do you support porn AND prayer in schools? Unconfuse me.

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy
Leave it to an emotional parent to completely miss the point.

Sorry if I sound a little jaded, but I live about 30 minutes from Columbine and am subjected to far more of the BS than those of you lucky enough not to live here

Maybe you can provide an update on some of the lawsuits that were filed, particulary the one against the cops.

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld
So, do you support porn AND prayer in schools? Unconfuse me.

I don't know if your question was directed to me and I am somewhat confused by the question, but I will anwser it anyhow. No I do not support porn or officially sanctioned prayer being allowed in our public schools. I do not view porn as being a suitable subject for public schools and I view public schools as being government entities thus falling under separation of church and state.

[Labret] · 10-06-2002, 10:09 PM

Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:11 PM

The last I heard about it the suit was thrown out. Apparently the Jefferson County sheriff's department was believed to have been responsible for shooting one of the victims, but the evidence didn't support that argument. The parents were furious, but the DA refused to move forward with the case.

To be honest with you, I don't keep up with any of the Columbine stuff anymore. Why, you ask? Because I disagree completely with the spin and the BS that has been applied to this whole story and especially to Kleibold and Harris.

I grew up going to schools exactly like and in the same county as Columbine and I know the truth about what goes on behind those "hallowed" walls. No one here wants to hear or admit to the REAL truth, and I can't tolerate the denial and riduculousness of the whole thing.

If you really want to research anything concerning Columbine, the lawsuits, etc., the URL to our local newspaper is http://rockymountainnews.com/ Have fun with it

PersianKitty · 10-06-2002, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

Maybe you can provide an update on some of the lawsuits that were filed, particulary the one against the cops.

and the verbatim copycat lawsuit of the paducah suit against the movie, videogame, and internet industry (including my company)

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld
So, do you support porn AND prayer in schools? Unconfuse me.

On the off chance this was directed at me, although I will admit to a bit of confusion myself, I do not support either porn or prayer in school. Why would I want my child to be subjected to Christian teachings? We don't practice any form of Christianity, Judaism, or any other -ism, nor does our belief system utilize or condone prayer at all.

I believe school is for education. If parents want their kids to have religion, they should check into their local church.

I believe porn is for adults... period.

'Nuff said

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PersianKitty

and the verbatim copycat lawsuit of the paducah suit against the movie, videogame, and internet industry (including my company)

Clue me in if you will. What movie, and video game? What do you mean by the internet industry?

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PersianKitty

and the verbatim copycat lawsuit of the paducah suit against the movie, videogame, and internet industry (including my company)

Sorry PK, but you completely lost me... not that that's a tough thing to do tonight

Shoot me some more information and I can look it up... got my curiosity going now!

UnseenWorld · 10-06-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

I don't know if your question was directed to me and I am somewhat confused by the question, but I will anwser it anyhow. No I do not support porn or officially sanctioned prayer being allowed in our public schools. I do not view porn as being a suitable subject for public schools and I view public schools as being government entities thus falling under separation of church and state.

Gosh, when you don't want to answer a question, you can always misunderstand it. OF COURSE, I was asking if you maintain the schizophrenic view that porn should exist AND that prayer should be institutionalized in public schools? I find the idea that religious people are in porn a somewhat humorous idea.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]
Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

Labret, were you picked on as a child in school?

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]
Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

I may be assuming incorrectly, but I am assuming you are saying the victims of the shooting got what they deserved. If that is the case I then understand the point you are making, but I think their targets were random targets. I can understand "geeks" being pushed over the edge because as we probably all have witnessed in our school days is just how cruel some of the students can be towards others that are outside the "clique". What I fall short of any real understanding of, is why, in almost all of the school shootings, if not all, they don't select the targets who were actually their torturers instead of random targets.

PersianKitty · 10-06-2002, 10:35 PM

theking and wenchy...

after the Paducah Ky school shootings a few years back.. ..one of the numerous lawsuits that was filed by overzealous attorneys on behalf of the parents named 25+ movie-related companies (Time Warner, PolygramFilm, Island Pictures, NewLine Cinema, etc) , video game companies (Nintendo, Sony, Sega, Squaresoft,etc), and my own company along with one other adult internet company as defendents in a $100million+ lawsuit claiming that because the shooter watched "The Bastketball Diaries", because he played violent video games and because he had unobstructed access the Internet where he viewed pornographic images of women (all three who died in the random shooting were female)...that the defendents named should be held accountable.

After a year of jockeying in the US District Court in Kentucky the judge dismissed the suit completely (as many of the other suits filed related to the Paducah shooting have been). An appeal was filed. It sat in the court for another year. Finally a few months ago, the original decision was upheld.

During this time, an attorney filed a copycat suit (word for word copied from the Paducah suit) on behalf of one of the familes involved in the Columbine shootings. Most of that suit has been dismissed. It's a matter of time before the rest is.

The shortscript of the initial decision is..
" Plaintiffs brought suit against the manufacturers and distributors of various video games, the directors and producers of the movie The Basketball Diaries, and owners of various internet websites. According to Plaintiffs, the video games, movie and internet materials had a profound influence upon Michael Carneal, a fourteen-year-old boy and caused him to go to school, murder three of his classmates, and wound five others during his shooting spree. Based on the foregoing, Plaintiffs, the parents of the deceased children, filed some twenty-three claims sounding in negligence and strict liability against all Defendants. In addition, Plaintiffs alleged that the Internet Defendants violated the federal RICO Act by distributing obscene and pornographic materials to minors. In granting Defendants' motions to dismiss these claims, the Court held: 1) Plaintiffs' negligence claims must be dismissed because Defendants owed no legal duty of care since Michael Carneal's actions were unforeseeable. Alternatively, Michael Carneal's intervening acts constituted a superseding cause which absolved Defendants of liability; 2) Plaintiffs' strict liability claims must be dismissed because thoughts, ideas, and expressions contained within Defendants' movie, games and website materials do not constitute a product within the realm of the strict liability doctrine; and 3) Plaintiffs' RICO claims must be dismissed because Plaintiffs cannot establish essential elements of the claim needed to support a civil RICO Act recovery"

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

I may be assuming incorrectly, but I am assuming you are saying the victims of the shooting got what they deserved. If that is the case I then understand the point you are making, but I think their targets were random targets. I can understand "geeks" being pushed over the edge because as we probably all have witnessed in our school days is just how cruel some of the students can be towards others that are outside the "clique". What I fall short of any real understanding of, is why, in almost all of the school shootings, if not all, they don't select the targets who were actually their torturers instead of random targets.

According to the notes that were found after the fact, the targets were not random. Kleibold and Harris had a definite list of people they wanted to "take out" and very specific reasons for each name on the list. Granted, some of the reasons were as simple as "she laughed at me" or "he flipped me the bird", but in their minds in their state of mind, that was justification enough.

I don't think K & H were the "geeks"... to me, they were a helluva lot more normal than the jocks in the Columbine herd who harrassed them... but that's another story for another time

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

Gosh, when you don't want to answer a question, you can always misunderstand it. OF COURSE, I was asking if you maintain the schizophrenic view that porn should exist AND that prayer should be institutionalized in public schools? I find the idea that religious people are in porn a somewhat humorous idea.

There are many forms of religion, but I assume that you are speaking about the major religions of the world.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:44 PM

Ahhh, okay. I remember hearing something about that, PK... only because I thought at the time it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard in my life.

Unfortunately, I couldn't begin to tell you where the suit stands now or if it is even still standing at all. I might just have to look into it, though, just to see how far they got with it.

Keep in mind that we are STILL going through a landslide of lawsuits as a result of Columbine. I stopped trying to keep up with them a long time ago.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:47 PM

By the way, theking... I just want to say THANK YOU for presenting a thought-provoking thread that doesn't have anything at all to do with Visa!!

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

According to the notes that were found after the fact, the targets were not random. Kleibold and Harris had a definite list of people they wanted to "take out" and very specific reasons for each name on the list. Granted, some of the reasons were as simple as "she laughed at me" or "he flipped me the bird", but in their minds in their state of mind, that was justification enough.

I don't think K & H were the "geeks"... to me, they were a helluva lot more normal than the jocks in the Columbine herd who harrassed them... but that's another story for another time

I recall something about a list of names, but I thought that they had not actually shot anyone that was on the list. I guess I was mistaken, I did not follow the case closely and I am sure that being local you have much more information than I. I also thought that there was a lawsuit (maybe one that has been dismissed) against the police who were in full body armor, for not entering the school and possibly saving more lives, in particular the school teacher that bled to death. When I was watching the incident on the news, I thought that it was odd that the police did not enter the school.

PersianKitty · 10-06-2002, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy
By the way, theking... I just want to say THANK YOU for presenting a thought-provoking thread that doesn't have anything at all to do with Visa!!

haha.. I agree 100%. I'm so tired of visa, visa, visa... that I used my mastercard today instead!

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

Labret, were you picked on as a child in school?

Come on it's only been thirty minutes... surly you are still here... or is this another one of you responses to incite a heated response upon yourself to gain whatever sick favor you get out of being so stupid. Respond motherfucker... tell me... because if an innocent child (and that?s what they are) deserves to have the life snuffed out of them by two mentally unstable, unfit for to breath the air I breath, to ignorant to seek help motherfuckers, then you are sadly mistaken. Come on, enlighten us with you wisdom you stupid fuck!

theking · 10-06-2002, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PersianKitty
theking and wenchy...

after the Paducah Ky school shootings a few years back.. ..one of the numerous lawsuits that was filed by overzealous attorneys on behalf of the parents named 25+ movie-related companies (Time Warner, PolygramFilm, Island Pictures, NewLine Cinema, etc) , video game companies (Nintendo, Sony, Sega, Squaresoft,etc), and my own company along with one other adult internet company as defendents in a $100million+ lawsuit claiming that because the shooter watched "The Bastketball Diaries", because he played violent video games and because he had unobstructed access the Internet where he viewed pornographic images of women (all three who died in the random shooting were female)...that the defendents named should be held accountable.

After a year of jockeying in the US District Court in Kentucky the judge dismissed the suit completely (as many of the other suits filed related to the Paducah shooting have been). An appeal was filed. It sat in the court for another year. Finally a few months ago, the original decision was upheld.

During this time, an attorney filed a copycat suit (word for word copied from the Paducah suit) on behalf of one of the familes involved in the Columbine shootings. Most of that suit has been dismissed. It's a matter of time before the rest is.

The shortscript of the initial decision is..
" Plaintiffs brought suit against the manufacturers and distributors of various video games, the directors and producers of the movie The Basketball Diaries, and owners of various internet websites. According to Plaintiffs, the video games, movie and internet materials had a profound influence upon Michael Carneal, a fourteen-year-old boy and caused him to go to school, murder three of his classmates, and wound five others during his shooting spree. Based on the foregoing, Plaintiffs, the parents of the deceased children, filed some twenty-three claims sounding in negligence and strict liability against all Defendants. In addition, Plaintiffs alleged that the Internet Defendants violated the federal RICO Act by distributing obscene and pornographic materials to minors. In granting Defendants' motions to dismiss these claims, the Court held: 1) Plaintiffs' negligence claims must be dismissed because Defendants owed no legal duty of care since Michael Carneal's actions were unforeseeable. Alternatively, Michael Carneal's intervening acts constituted a superseding cause which absolved Defendants of liability; 2) Plaintiffs' strict liability claims must be dismissed because thoughts, ideas, and expressions contained within Defendants' movie, games and website materials do not constitute a product within the realm of the strict liability doctrine; and 3) Plaintiffs' RICO claims must be dismissed because Plaintiffs cannot establish essential elements of the claim needed to support a civil RICO Act recovery"

I too now recall something about this, in particular the movie, but did not know of everything that was involved in the lawsuit. Thanks for the info. Attorneys always try to hit all of the bases they can think of in the hopes that something sticks. Prosecutors do the same thing by over charging a defendant.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

I recall something about a list of names, but I thought that they had not actually shot anyone that was on the list. I guess I was mistaken, I did not follow the case closely and I am sure that being local you have much more information than I. I also thought that there was a lawsuit (maybe one that has been dismissed) against the police who were in full body armor, for not entering the school and possibly saving more lives, in particular the school teacher that bled to death. When I was watching the incident on the news, I thought that it was odd that the police did not enter the school.

According to what we heard, the cops knew there were bombs involved (the homemade-in-the-garage-by-rookies type), and they were afraid to go in as they knew nothing about placement, timers, etc.

My feeling at the time was that taking that risk was their JOB, and they blew it big time. All those cops, all the posturing, all the armored vehicles, and they couldn't save a single victim inside that building. Kinda makes me wonder just exactly what they DID do besides stand around and look good for the TV cameras.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 10:56 PM

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

Come on it's only been thirty minutes... surly you are still here... or is this another one of you responses to incite a heated response upon yourself to gain whatever sick favor you get out of being so stupid. Respond motherfucker... tell me... because if an innocent child (and that?s what they are) deserves to have the life snuffed out of them by two mentally unstable, unfit for to breath the air I breath, to ignorant to seek help motherfuckers, then you are sadly mistaken. Come on, enlighten us with you wisdom you stupid fuck!

That's what I thought... you and your rhetoric are nothing but bullshit!

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

According to what we heard, the cops knew there were bombs involved (the homemade-in-the-garage-by-rookies type), and they were afraid to go in as they knew nothing about placement, timers, etc.

My feeling at the time was that taking that risk was their JOB, and they blew it big time. All those cops, all the posturing, all the armored vehicles, and they couldn't save a single victim inside that building. Kinda makes me wonder just exactly what they DID do besides stand around and look good for the TV cameras.

Have you ever been a police officer or fire fighter? Have you ever pulled someone out of a burning building? Have you ever revived a heart attack victim? Have you ever been shot at while trying to save the life of someone who was down? If so please respond because you might have some idea of what you are talking about. If not then you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Dirtyone
Firefighter
EMT
Part time police officer

theking · 10-06-2002, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

According to what we heard, the cops knew there were bombs involved (the homemade-in-the-garage-by-rookies type), and they were afraid to go in as they knew nothing about placement, timers, etc.

My feeling at the time was that taking that risk was their JOB, and they blew it big time. All those cops, all the posturing, all the armored vehicles, and they couldn't save a single victim inside that building. Kinda makes me wonder just exactly what they DID do besides stand around and look good for the TV cameras.

If the police suspected or knew that there might be bombs inside the school, to me, that should have been an even greater incentive to enter the school. Their job is to protect and serve. In one of these they did a good job. They protected there asses quite well, but failed to serve any useful function. A school full of children and they suspect or know that there are bombs and they sit on their ass waiting for the school to blow. Some real brave cops.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

two mentally unstable, unfit for to breath the air I breath, to ignorant to seek help motherfuckers...

I swore to myself that I would not get into a debate about Columbine, but...

dirtyone, you have been misinformed. There was just an article in Saturday's paper in which evidence was presented that one of the gunmen TOLD his probation officer that he had homicidal thoughts specifically about some of the people at school. The man told NO ONE, stating that it was not required by law for him to do so!! The shooters and their families had been in counseling, had been to the police, and had spoken with multiple school officials and guidance counselors and no one lifted a finger either to help them or to stop them.

Too ignorant to seek help motherfuckers? Not by a long shot!

Too much trouble for the powers that be to get involved and make the intolerant jocks and yuppies behave like human beings? You bet your ass!

I DO NOT condone the actions of Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold, but I DO understand what pushed them to do what they did. They weren't mentally unstable... they were sick and tired of being whipping boys for a bunch of wanna-be somebodies with too much money and not enough clue.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

I swore to myself that I would not get into a debate about Columbine, but...

dirtyone, you have been misinformed. There was just an article in Saturday's paper in which evidence was presented that one of the gunmen TOLD his probation officer that he had homicidal thoughts specifically about some of the people at school. The man told NO ONE, stating that it was not required by law for him to do so!! The shooters and their families had been in counseling, had been to the police, and had spoken with multiple school officials and guidance counselors and no one lifted a finger either to help them or to stop them.

Too ignorant to seek help motherfuckers? Not by a long shot!

Too much trouble for the powers that be to get involved and make the intolerant jocks and yuppies behave like human beings? You bet your ass!

I DO NOT condone the actions of Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold, but I DO understand what pushed them to do what they did. They weren't mentally unstable... they were sick and tired of being whipping boys for a bunch of wanna-be somebodies with too much money and not enough clue.

I changed my mind.... lets look at this another way

There may or may not have been a failing of the system in this case... you say thier was.... but what you are saying is there was a failing of the system of the first in response to the school?... Please... see my previous post and tell me have you ever done or been involve in any of the things I motioned.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

Have you ever been a police officer or fire fighter? Have you ever pulled someone out of a burning building? Have you ever revived a heart attack victim? Have you ever been shot at while trying to save the life of someone who was down? If so please respond because you might have some idea of what you are talking about. If not then you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Dirtyone
Firefighter
EMT
Part time police officer

Gee, quite an impressive resume. However, you really shouldn't attempt to talk about something when you don't have all the facts.

FACT: The police made NO attempt to enter the school.

FACT: They could see on the security monitors that both the shooters were dead

FACT: The only person they saved that day was a kid that was trying to throw himself out of a second-story window to save himself

FACT: A teacher bled to death while they stood around outside doing... whatever it was they were doing

I don't know you, dirtyone, and you don't know me and, frankly, I don't appreciate you ripping me apart for answering someone else's question. I believe I'll go back to my civilized discussion with theking now...

booker · 10-06-2002, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Sounds like some bullshit written by the NRA trying to say that guns had nothing to do with the shootings.

Sounds like some bullshit saying that poor parents and irresponsible gun owners had everything to do with the shootings.

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

I changed my mind.... lets look at this another way

There may or may not have been a failing of the system in this case... you say thier was.... but what you are saying is there was a failing of the system of the first in response to the school?... Please... see my previous post and tell me have you ever done or been involve in any of the things I motioned.

To answer your rather civil question (thank you), no I have not done any of those things. However, anyone with an IQ of 5 could see that the system not only failed, it completely collapsed! It was utter chaos, with the cops and rescue squads running around as willy-nilly as the terrified kids who were fleeing the building.

Yes, there was a horrible failing of the system in the first response to the school. But it wasn't the "regular guys" that caused it... it was supervisors and whoever it is that makes the important decisions. Many MANY cops and rescue workers were furious that they weren't allowed to go in when they wanted to, and I admire them for their desire to do their jobs regardless of the potential harm to themselves. Their higher-ups, however, deserve a swift kick in the pants

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

I swore to myself that I would not get into a debate about Columbine, but...

dirtyone, you have been misinformed. There was just an article in Saturday's paper in which evidence was presented that one of the gunmen TOLD his probation officer that he had homicidal thoughts specifically about some of the people at school. The man told NO ONE, stating that it was not required by law for him to do so!! The shooters and their families had been in counseling, had been to the police, and had spoken with multiple school officials and guidance counselors and no one lifted a finger either to help them or to stop them.

Too ignorant to seek help motherfuckers? Not by a long shot!

Too much trouble for the powers that be to get involved and make the intolerant jocks and yuppies behave like human beings? You bet your ass!

I DO NOT condone the actions of Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold, but I DO understand what pushed them to do what they did. They weren't mentally unstable... they were sick and tired of being whipping boys for a bunch of wanna-be somebodies with too much money and not enough clue.

I don't have any desire to get into a pissing match about what led up to the events of that day however I will say that unless you have ever been fist in on a fire, crime scene, or medical emergence, then you have no place second guessing the emergency personnel that responded on that day. I have been on scenes of mass chaos and seen the best of the best fuck up royally.... it happens and there is nothing that can be done because humans placed under extreme pressure are going to screw up... you cannot deny that this was a case of extreme pressure (kids being shot dead inside of a school) I hate it when Monday morning quarterbacks second guess emergency personnel on their decisions... these guys did the best they could with what they had and that was it. The end, end of story!

In my opinion these two second rate losers may or my not have looked for help but there are far more kids with far greater problems that over come their problems without killing their fellow classmates!

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]
Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

Where the hell is this Labret?... I want to rip him a new asshole!

Coward!

theking · 10-06-2002, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

To answer your rather civil question (thank you), no I have not done any of those things. However, anyone with an IQ of 5 could see that the system not only failed, it completely collapsed! It was utter chaos, with the cops and rescue squads running around as willy-nilly as the terrified kids who were fleeing the building.

Yes, there was a horrible failing of the system in the first response to the school. But it wasn't the "regular guys" that caused it... it was supervisors and whoever it is that makes the important decisions. Many MANY cops and rescue workers were furious that they weren't allowed to go in when they wanted to, and I admire them for their desire to do their jobs regardless of the potential harm to themselves. Their higher-ups, however, deserve a swift kick in the pants

You are refreshing my recollection. I do now recall that it was superiors of the line officers that made the decision not to enter the school. I recall seeing one of the decision makers interviewed sometime after the event defending his decision not to allow the officers to enter the building. He said something about jeopardizing his men when there were to many unkowns. One thing that was known is there was a school full of children in harms way so I thought that it was very strange that he would not put his officers who were in full body armor in harms way.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

Gee, quite an impressive resume. However, you really shouldn't attempt to talk about something when you don't have all the facts.

FACT: The police made NO attempt to enter the school.

FACT: They could see on the security monitors that both the shooters were dead

FACT: The only person they saved that day was a kid that was trying to throw himself out of a second-story window to save himself

FACT: A teacher bled to death while they stood around outside doing... whatever it was they were doing

I don't know you, dirtyone, and you don't know me and, frankly, I don't appreciate you ripping me apart for answering someone else's question. I believe I'll go back to my civilized discussion with theking now...

Fire service motto: To save lives and property

Police mottoe: To serve and protoect

You can do neither of these if you are dead.

First rule of command... secure te scene

Dead firefightes and police officers are useless firefighters and police officers.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

You are refreshing my recollection. I do now recall that it was superiors of the line officers that made the decision not to enter the school. I recall seeing one of the decision makers interviewed sometime after the event defending his decision not to allow the officers to enter the building. He said something about jeopardizing his men when there were to many unkowns. One thing that was known is there was a school full of children in harms way so I thought that it was very strange that he would not put his officers who were in full body armor in harms way.

See previous post

Wenchy · 10-06-2002, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

In my opinion these two second rate losers may or my not have looked for help but there are far more kids with far greater problems that over come their problems without killing their fellow classmates!

As I stated earlier, I don't condone their actions for even a second. However, being someone who lived through the hassle and torment of not being a herd-mentality jock, I can certainly relate to what triggered the whole thing.

I could rant for hours about today's kids not being taught how to cope and how it leads to things like Columbine and other school shootings... or how ridiculously intolerant people have become while hiding behind the mask of religion... but it's late and I'm tired. Perhaps another day

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]
Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

Come on...respond!... I have to go to bed soon. What are you? afraid?

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wenchy

As I stated earlier, I don't condone their actions for even a second. However, being someone who lived through the hassle and torment of not being a herd-mentality jock, I can certainly relate to what triggered the whole thing.

I could rant for hours about today's kids not being taught how to cope and how it leads to things like Columbine and other school shootings... or how ridiculously intolerant people have become while hiding behind the mask of religion... but it's late and I'm tired. Perhaps another day

Fair enough.

dirtyone · 10-06-2002, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]
Geeks fought back.

You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

Pussy!

theking · 10-06-2002, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dirtyone

Fire service motto: To save lives and property

Police mottoe: To serve and protoect

You can do neither of these if you are dead.

First rule of command... secure te scene

Dead firefightes and police officers are useless firefighters and police officers.

I understand your points. I also understand that the police officers were rendered useless by their commanders, because all they did on that day was to secure the area, which did not help the dying that was taking place inside the school. In addition they apparently had some suspicion or knowledge of bombs being inside the school and all they did was secure the area and protect their asses waiting for the bombs to be detonated with a building full of children. Sounds like piss poor protecting to me.

untitled · 10-07-2002, 12:06 AM

wasn't it cuz of marilyn manson?

pornJester · 10-07-2002, 12:25 AM

I blame the parents. Now adays too many parents are trying to be friends with their kids over giving them proper discipline when needed and regulating other areas of their lives. Kids are impressionable, naive, and foolhardy.

10-06-2002, 09:21 PM	#1
theking Nice Kitty Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The good old USA!!! Posts: 21,053	Breaved Columbine parent before congress I just received this via E-mail from a friend of mine that lives in Arizona. >Subject: FW: Columbine update > > > > On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a > > victim of the Columbine High School shootings in > > Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House > > Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to > > our national leaders during this special session of > > Congress was painfully truthful. They were not > > prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received > > well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every > > teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every > > psychologist, and every so-called expert! These > > courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, > > penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt > > that God sent this man as a voice crying in the > > wilderness. The following is a portion of the > > transcript: > > > > > > "Since the dawn of creation there has been both good > > & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain > > the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The > > death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and > > the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other > > eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their > > blood cries out for answers." > > > > > > "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain > > slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain > > was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the > > National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, > > and the reason for the murder could only be found in > > Cain's heart." > > > > > > "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I > > was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed > > at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the > > NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am > > not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I > > don't believe that they are responsible for my > > daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they > > need to be defended. If I believed they had anything > > to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest > > opponent." > > > > > > "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not > > just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be > > forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much > > of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame > > lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers > > themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that > > expresses my feelings best. This was written way > > before I knew I would be speaking here today": > > > > > > Your laws ignore our deepest needs, > > Your words are empty air. > > You've stripped away our heritage, > > You've outlawed simple prayer. > > Now gunshots fill our classrooms, > > And precious children die. > > You seek for answers everywhere, > > And ask the question "Why?" > > You regulate restrictive laws, > > Through legislative creed. > > And yet you fail to understand, > > That God is what we need! > > > > > > "Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist > > of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to > > acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a > > void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush > > in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present > > within our educational systems for most of our > > nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as > > theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. > > What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused > > to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to > > hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as > > Columbine's tragedy occurs - politicians immediately > > look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately > > seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to > > erode away our personal and private liberties. We do > > not need more restrictive laws. > > > > > > "Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal > > detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who > > spends months planning this type of massacre. The real > > villain lies within our own hearts. Political > > posturing and restrictive legislation are not the > > answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. > > There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will > > not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do > > not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out > > verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million > > dollar church buildings built while people with basic > > needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart > > and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was > > founded on the principle of simple trust in God!" > > > > > > "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school > > library and saw his two friends murdered before his > > very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I > > defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I > > challenge every young person in America, and around > > the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at > > Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our > > schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those > > students be in vain. Dare to move into the new > > millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation > > that violates your God-given right to communicate with > > Him. To those of you who would point your finger at > > the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to > > examine your own heart before casting the first stone! > > My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young > > people of this country will not allow that to happen!" __________________ When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me! FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

10-06-2002, 09:45 PM	#3
Wenchy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mile High City Posts: 231	Leave it to an emotional parent to completely miss the point. Sorry if I sound a little jaded, but I live about 30 minutes from Columbine and am subjected to far more of the BS than those of you lucky enough not to live here __________________ <br><a href="http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=920346-0000&PA=581865&HTML=http://www.1000facials.com/webmasters/" target="_blank"><b>Looking for Amateur Reality Sites?<br><img src="http://banner.1000facials.com/1000facials_120x60_01.gif"><br>One Man... One Camera... One Mission<br></b></a>

10-06-2002, 09:58 PM	#4
UnseenWorld Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 5,279	So, do you support porn AND prayer in schools? Unconfuse me. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

10-06-2002, 10:11 PM	#8
Wenchy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mile High City Posts: 231	The last I heard about it the suit was thrown out. Apparently the Jefferson County sheriff's department was believed to have been responsible for shooting one of the victims, but the evidence didn't support that argument. The parents were furious, but the DA refused to move forward with the case. To be honest with you, I don't keep up with any of the Columbine stuff anymore. Why, you ask? Because I disagree completely with the spin and the BS that has been applied to this whole story and especially to Kleibold and Harris. I grew up going to schools exactly like and in the same county as Columbine and I know the truth about what goes on behind those "hallowed" walls. No one here wants to hear or admit to the REAL truth, and I can't tolerate the denial and riduculousness of the whole thing. If you really want to research anything concerning Columbine, the lawsuits, etc., the URL to our local newspaper is http://rockymountainnews.com/ Have fun with it __________________ <br><a href="http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=920346-0000&PA=581865&HTML=http://www.1000facials.com/webmasters/" target="_blank"><b>Looking for Amateur Reality Sites?<br><img src="http://banner.1000facials.com/1000facials_120x60_01.gif"><br>One Man... One Camera... One Mission<br></b></a>

10-06-2002, 10:44 PM	#19
Wenchy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mile High City Posts: 231	Ahhh, okay. I remember hearing something about that, PK... only because I thought at the time it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard in my life. Unfortunately, I couldn't begin to tell you where the suit stands now or if it is even still standing at all. I might just have to look into it, though, just to see how far they got with it. Keep in mind that we are STILL going through a landslide of lawsuits as a result of Columbine. I stopped trying to keep up with them a long time ago. __________________ <br><a href="http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=920346-0000&PA=581865&HTML=http://www.1000facials.com/webmasters/" target="_blank"><b>Looking for Amateur Reality Sites?<br><img src="http://banner.1000facials.com/1000facials_120x60_01.gif"><br>One Man... One Camera... One Mission<br></b></a>

10-06-2002, 09:29 PM	#2
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Sounds like some bullshit written by the NRA trying to say that guns had nothing to do with the shootings.

10-06-2002, 10:09 PM	#7
[Labret] Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: Са́нкт-Петербу́рг Posts: 10,945	Geeks fought back. You can only push the "strange" kids so much. Got what they deserved.

10-06-2002, 10:35 PM	#16
PersianKitty Meow Media Inc. Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: In the valley of the sun, cactus, tacos, tequila, and nod Posts: 7,785	theking and wenchy... after the Paducah Ky school shootings a few years back.. ..one of the numerous lawsuits that was filed by overzealous attorneys on behalf of the parents named 25+ movie-related companies (Time Warner, PolygramFilm, Island Pictures, NewLine Cinema, etc) , video game companies (Nintendo, Sony, Sega, Squaresoft,etc), and my own company along with one other adult internet company as defendents in a $100million+ lawsuit claiming that because the shooter watched "The Bastketball Diaries", because he played violent video games and because he had unobstructed access the Internet where he viewed pornographic images of women (all three who died in the random shooting were female)...that the defendents named should be held accountable. After a year of jockeying in the US District Court in Kentucky the judge dismissed the suit completely (as many of the other suits filed related to the Paducah shooting have been). An appeal was filed. It sat in the court for another year. Finally a few months ago, the original decision was upheld. During this time, an attorney filed a copycat suit (word for word copied from the Paducah suit) on behalf of one of the familes involved in the Columbine shootings. Most of that suit has been dismissed. It's a matter of time before the rest is. The shortscript of the initial decision is.. " Plaintiffs brought suit against the manufacturers and distributors of various video games, the directors and producers of the movie The Basketball Diaries, and owners of various internet websites. According to Plaintiffs, the video games, movie and internet materials had a profound influence upon Michael Carneal, a fourteen-year-old boy and caused him to go to school, murder three of his classmates, and wound five others during his shooting spree. Based on the foregoing, Plaintiffs, the parents of the deceased children, filed some twenty-three claims sounding in negligence and strict liability against all Defendants. In addition, Plaintiffs alleged that the Internet Defendants violated the federal RICO Act by distributing obscene and pornographic materials to minors. In granting Defendants' motions to dismiss these claims, the Court held: 1) Plaintiffs' negligence claims must be dismissed because Defendants owed no legal duty of care since Michael Carneal's actions were unforeseeable. Alternatively, Michael Carneal's intervening acts constituted a superseding cause which absolved Defendants of liability; 2) Plaintiffs' strict liability claims must be dismissed because thoughts, ideas, and expressions contained within Defendants' movie, games and website materials do not constitute a product within the realm of the strict liability doctrine; and 3) Plaintiffs' RICO claims must be dismissed because Plaintiffs cannot establish essential elements of the claim needed to support a civil RICO Act recovery"

10-06-2002, 10:47 PM	#20
Wenchy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mile High City Posts: 231	By the way, theking... I just want to say THANK YOU for presenting a thought-provoking thread that doesn't have anything at all to do with Visa!!

10-06-2002, 10:56 PM	#26
dirtyone Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: God's Country (Georgia) Posts: 3,706	.

10-07-2002, 12:06 AM	#45
untitled Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 352	wasn't it cuz of marilyn manson?

10-07-2002, 12:25 AM	#46
pornJester Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,138	I blame the parents. Now adays too many parents are trying to be friends with their kids over giving them proper discipline when needed and regulating other areas of their lives. Kids are impressionable, naive, and foolhardy. __________________ FreshBucks \| Webmaster Vault \| GayAW Trusted Names in Adult. ICQ 9157.3698