Questions for you 3rd party processors - GoFuckYourself.com

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:00 PM

I've been reading for 2 days now and I'm no closer to seeing light at the end of the tunnel here. So, I have some questions that I hope can be answered since time is rapidly running out and we need to make some decisions.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Of course if my gramma did 100 sales a day (of course my gramma would, she's a sharp old lady) and got 1 chargeback per day (which she probably would within 3 months due to the law of averages alone) she'd be over the allowable trans count limit and then she'd be on monitoring, paying her fines, and watching her profits go down the drain.

And how is this going to be different by using a 3rd party? Aren't we now just as responsible as if we were using our own merchant acct instead of a 3rd party's? Are they going to absorb the fines and whatnot if the chargebacks are too high? Where has the umbrella gone?

What are the requirements for these forms and info that Visa is requiring? Is it based on a company name or the individual? Meaning, if the 3rd party processor fucks up and I am blacklisted, does the company take the fall and end up without processing or does that rest on me as an individual? Because I may have processing set up for other ventures that I certainly hope would not be affected.

Will the processing fees be going down now since the majority, if not all, of the umbrella that was once provided is now gone? How are you still able to justify 15% when the site owners are assuming all of the responsibility now? I still don't understand how this is right in anyone's book. We were using YOUR merchant account to avoid all of this shit that goes along with having a merchant account, and now that is about to no longer exist.

My major points of interest right now:
----------------------------------------------------------

1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain.

2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants. If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other ventures?

3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I think this whole thing is bullshit.

4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site owners for all they're worth?

5. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be tightening up the methods by which you prevent chargebacks, or is it really accepted as the standard to simply decline half the attempted transactions as a method of prevention? Doesn't really sound like the optimal solution to me, but then, I'm no expert.

6. Please explain in your own words WHY I, as a site owner, should continue the use 3rd party billing and pay your per transaction percentages as a processing solution as opposed to setting up my own merchant account and taking matters into my own hands. If you choose to insult me (as I have seen happen here in the last 2 days) rather than provide a reasonable and convincing answer, consider yourself off the table as an option.

/AMp

Backov · 10-03-2002, 04:04 PM

bump.

Good hard questions. Now let's see how much weaselling we get.

Cheers,
Backov

SetTheWorldonFire · 10-03-2002, 04:07 PM

I really liked the Wal-Mart comparison. Works for me

Krome · 10-03-2002, 04:07 PM

I want to know where this $250 goes that the processors get...I think they may have a bigger coke habit than me...as for Visa they must be importing the shit for personal use...

hershie · 10-03-2002, 04:08 PM

god, i can't believe the endless questions that need answering - where does it end.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hershie
god, i can't believe the endless questions that need answering - where does it end.

when someone answers them.

Ursa · 10-03-2002, 04:11 PM

Excellent questions. I, too, want the answers.

Pipecrew · 10-03-2002, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krome
I want to know where this $250 goes that the processors get...I think they may have a bigger coke habit than me...as for Visa they must be importing the shit for personal use...

I have been wondering the same for a while

Kimmykim · 10-03-2002, 04:16 PM

http://www.tunafishbitch.com/forum/s...4&pagenumber=2

That I believe is a partial answer to one of your q's Amp --

Krome · 10-03-2002, 04:18 PM

This is my opinion why it has happened:

a) We are in a cash recession at the moment Visa needs cash for peoples spending at Christmas.
b) Why not pick on a load of people who traditionally society dislikes.

What we should do is just get our own online merchant accounts and say bye bye to processors. Globill have taken on 10 extra staff to cope with the influx of new business, apparently yesterday they signed up over 600 sites.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
http://www.tunafishbitch.com/forum/s...4&pagenumber=2

That I believe is a partial answer to one of your q's Amp --

well, thanks, but I don't care who's getting the money. The banks, the processors, the CEO of Visa's grandmother..... doesn't matter. I'm more interested in the things that affect the way I'll be doing business. This is without question, going to have a massive impact on things. Who actually gets the money from the fees isn't all that important. Right now I need as much of a big picture of all this as I can get so that we can make some decisions on what to do.

hershie · 10-03-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krome
This is my opinion why it has happened:

a) We are in a cash recession at the moment Visa needs cash for peoples spending at Christmas.

Visa is a massive corporation that is looking to broaden their reach into your wallet and every transaction by a large factor. Take a look at what they have planned up their sleeve over the coming years:

http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0916/038.html

RATBOY · 10-03-2002, 04:33 PM

I am VERY interested in the conclusion Amp comes to, and if the 3rd party guys are reading this they should know a HELL of a lot of others are too. Amp is a legend here and people listen like he is the end-all to any issue.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hershie

Visa is a massive corporation that is looking to broaden their reach into your wallet and every transaction by a large factor. Take a look at what they have planned up their sleeve over the coming years:

http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0916/038.html

pretty fuckin' scary:

Quote:

Visa is hell-bent on rendering paper money a relic. In the past decade the use of cash and checks has steadily declined, to 61% of consumer spending from 81% in 1990. Visa claims to handle 12% of consumer spending in the U.S., double the share of its nearest rival, MasterCard, and aims to accelerate cash's demise.

Sunshine McGillicutty · 10-03-2002, 04:35 PM

good stuff amp

I'd like to see these answered too, but i'm afraid its not going to happen. The 'big 3' have already divulged their strategy. like religious nuts they first attempt to coerce, then they insult, and if that doesn't work, the threats begin.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:38 PM

I'm not trying to bash on anyone.... these are legit questions (in my first post) that I'm really hoping to get some answers to soon so that we can decide what to do and which way to go. I'm not about to blindly follow the lemmings over the cliff in either direction until I have some more facts on this situation, because it IS going to affect the future of how this business is conducted.

Sunshine McGillicutty · 10-03-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

[i] 1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain. [/B]

this one bewilders me, but not for the same reasons. Someone who is honest, doesnt make false promises on their tour, fairly represents their content, and doesn't do anything shady will not have a merchant account emperiling cb ratio in the first place.

SunTzu · 10-03-2002, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head

4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site owners for all they're worth?

/AMp

I'd really like to know the answer to this one as well. If they charge 15% starting rate for the previous services and can no longer offer 100% of those services, the rate should be reduced - PERIOD.

Now the only advantage seems to be affiliate program maintenance and 24 hour billing support. The protection seems to be all but gone, and we now have an upfront fee.

Has anyone had experience with Probilling? They offer 9.5%. That sounds like a much more reasonable rate for what all of these places are offering now.

Lets hear it CCBill/Epoch... The more straight forward you are, the more business you'll retain. Lets get to it.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine McGillicutty

this one bewilders me, but not for the same reasons. Someone who is honest, doesnt make false promises on their tour, fairly represents their content, and doesn't do anything shady will not have a merchant account emperiling cb ratio in the first place.

Exactly. You said it better than I did. But either way, how is the cb ratio issue a selling point anymore? If you screw up, it doesn't look like it will make any difference whether you are with 3rd party or on your own... Visa has eliminated the umbrella. That's what I was trying to say.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 04:55 PM

Another question gets added to the list:

Is it true that Mastercard has also adopted this new policy?

hershie · 10-03-2002, 04:59 PM

well, if all that wasn't enough!

eBay's purchase of PayPal official as of today and all the potential uncertainty of eBay pulling the plug on transactions amongst our industry because of Public Relations concerns... (just wait till a media story is done on someone who got caught buying CP using PayPal).

Anyway here is the story about the purchase of PayPal that became official today:

It's official: eBay weds PayPal

http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1017-...&subj=cnetnews

ColKurtz · 10-03-2002, 05:16 PM

The question none of them will touch....

How does knocking some little webmasters paysite ,that gets a chargeback once in a blue moon and uses full disclosure, out of business solve any of the problems in this industry?

The big guys who are scamming and what not, will continue to do so as they burn through merchant account and corportate shells.

My advice to anyone is to hold off paying these blackmail fees. See how it pans out. Don't just blindly hand over money.

Sunshine McGillicutty · 10-03-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
Exactly. You said it better than I did. But either way, how is the cb ratio issue a selling point anymore? If you screw up, it doesn't look like it will make any difference whether you are with 3rd party or on your own... Visa has eliminated the umbrella. That's what I was trying to say.

I agree. i was aiming at those who made it seem like high cb ratios were the norm for adult in order to dissuade people from opening their own merch. accts. But you are right, your fucked either way if you do have a problem.

its the logical (but novel to you) follow up that I really interested in, along with a few other people..

Quote:

Will the processing fees be going down now since the majority, if not all, of the umbrella that was once provided is now gone? How are you still able to justify 15% when the site owners are assuming all of the responsibility now?

That really deserves it own thread, but nevertheless billing companies, we're waiting with baited breath

MultiBill · 10-03-2002, 05:22 PM

Amputate Your Head

Whilst most people have been slamming the boards with a vast array of rhetoric, I have been working very closely with my processors (who I also like to consider my partners in billing).

As I see it, the third party processors still have an imporatnt role to play for all of us, and you should all be talking to them with respect to these major points:

1) How to handle and protect current rebills

2) How to prepare for sales post Nov 15, 2002

Then you need to get very specific about the chargeback issue, and the umbrella you spoke of. Whilst it is true Visa will be looking at chargebacks to the URL, your processor should be doing two things for you, being:

1) Micro-managing chargebacks on each URL (meaning, ensuring that b4 they have to report the chargebacks, you are given the chance to fix any problems)

2) The processor should be covering all penalty fees (my understanding is that iBill and CCBill have always covered any penalties, and they are sure to keep doing so).

There are many other micro matters to deal with, and each one of them is being addressed to my billing partners, and not aired here on the boards.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the time to be working together to build a strong and profitable industry. Slanging off on the boards will not achive this in any stretch of anyones imagination.

Sure, ask questions of your peers, and I am sure we will all respond. But do you really think Visa etc arent reading this stuff

I can assure you all that Visa is not after everyone. They are after the scammers and thiefs that work within our industry, and cause all of us untold grief. To these scammers, I say "let them hang"!

I have a copy of the Visa regulations on my desk, and it is quite clear that Visa wants to make sure that if you get on their TMF (Terminated Merchant File), you dont just pop up somewhere else under a new company identity.

If you run a clean ship, these chnages will hardly affect you.

The only real losers I see are the little guys who can ill afford the fees to keep compliant (particulalry the offshore guys). Staying in business as a paysite may be very hard for them. And in saying that, if you are a small guy, and you decide to switch from paysite to free site, please choose your sponsors carefully, as they just might be the people Visa has on their TMF

Best of luck to all

Daniel

ICQ: 92462894
[email protected]

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MultiBill
There are many other micro matters to deal with, and each one of them is being addressed to my billing partners, and not aired here on the boards.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the time to be working together to build a strong and profitable industry. Slanging off on the boards will not achive this in any stretch of anyones imagination.

Nothing I have asked is in any way putting the processors in some sort of bad light. They are serious concerns that alot of us share. These same processors DO frequent this board since it is clearly the number one adult webmaster board on the Internet, and there is no question that the people represented here are in fact their clients. They have taken the time to post here and inform us of these new regulations and some have even taken the time to kindly let us know that if we do not continue to process with them, that we essentially have sealed our own doom in the business.

So I don;t find it unreasonable AT ALL to ask a few questions of them in a public forum populated with the very clients they represent concerning the future of how we are to conduct, maintain, continue, and/or re-establish our relationships with them.

So I'm glad you are getting qualified information by speaking with them in private, but I choose to use this method, and clearly they are willing to use it as well, since they have up until the point at which hard questions start to get addressed.

Have a nice day.

Fletch XXX · 10-03-2002, 05:31 PM

Visa has challenged the Almighty Dollar, we see what happens when one advances the throne of currency. The Government will not allow its funds to be superceded by a *non profit* org like Visa.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MultiBill
If you run a clean ship, these chnages will hardly affect you.

I disagree. I'm looking beyond the intial Visa Club fee being imposed and on to a more broad scope of things. And if I'm going to pay a 3rd party for something, I want to know what I'm buying.

buster · 10-03-2002, 05:49 PM

rocking questions amp!!!

i have not seen this answered yet and maybe some one knows the answer,,, i have sites that proccess at ccbill and ibill. do i have to pay up at both proccesors .

peace
localg

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buster
rocking questions amp!!!

i have not seen this answered yet and maybe some one knows the answer,,, i have sites that proccess at ccbill and ibill. do i have to pay up at both proccesors .

peace
localg

Hey G.... from what I understand so far, yes. The fee is imposed by each and every processor you choose to use for billing.

buster · 10-03-2002, 05:54 PM

Double dippin on the same url gotta love it ...
peace'
localg

MultiBill · 10-03-2002, 06:51 PM

Amp
I agree this is all very concering, but I would still receommend dealing with your IPSP b4 hitting the baords. I can assure you that I got a whole lot more from my direct interaction.

And in response to the value of third party processing, I thought I answered that in my original post regarding micro-management of URL's and Fee containment

****

Buster

I actually use three processors, and I too have asked this question without a response yet. As I see it, the $750 fee is for Visa to check my credentials, and that I am not on the TMF. One has to wonder why Visa neds to check me three times then???

So your point is very valid, but I too have no response yet.

****

Fletch XXX

I too think times ahead will be interesting with the anti-trust case against Visa and these new regulations. I am not sure that our processors will be wanting to enter that war, as their primary motivation will be to pretect our current businesses, and not annoy Visa. So the question is "who will take the fight to Visa"?

****

Daniel

Ken · 10-03-2002, 08:07 PM

Amp,

Jettis will be making a formal announcement tomorrow regarding the new Visa regs, but here is my take on a few of your specific questions.

My major points of interest right now:
----------------------------------------------------------

1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain.

While many of the benefits of using a 3rd party processor will be gone when the new regs go into effect, there are still a few benefits that will remain. As I see it, these are the benefits that one can still expect after the new regs are in place:

1. You don't need to sign a personal guarantee with the bank (the processor still takes the financial risk)
2. People with bad/marginal credit can still process
3. Simplified accounting (reconciling funds that go in and out of a merchant account can be very tricky.

All of the other things that are offered via a 3rd party billing company can also be acquired on an "ala carte" basis if you have your own merchant account. For example, Jettis has many clients who have their own merchant accounts. These clients also pay us for services like fraud control, 24/7 customer service, affiliate software, database management, etc, etc.

For some merchants, having their own merchant account will be a better way to go. For others, the remaining benefits offered by 3rd party processors will still be enough to warrant paying a small premium to 3rd party processors.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants. If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other ventures?

This is a great question and is an issue that is still being researched to ensure an accurate answer. We'll post this information once we have a definitive answer from Visa.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I think this whole thing is bullshit.

Again, we are researching this issue. Many of these types of scenarios have not been clearly defined by Visa or are still being clarified. The reason VISA wants URL information is to prevent bad merchants from skipping from one 3rd party processor to another. However, I agree with you that if your "URL" or account is not approved, you should not have to pay the fee. Unfortunately, I didn't make the rules, so just because I agree with you doesn't mean Visa will

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site owners for all they're worth?

This is a good question, but one that should be based on the real facts about the "cost of processing". Most people think that 3rd party billers pay 4%-5% for their merchant account, charge 15% and the difference is pure profit. This is not the case. Here are hard expenses that you would have to pay if you had your own merchant account:

1. 24/7 live customer service. This is 100% necessary to keep chargebacks under control and is a SIGNIFICANT expense as a % of your 3rd party processing fees.

2. Fraud Control - If you had your own merchant account, you would need to pay someone for fraud control. Jettis offers this ala carte, as do most processors, but there is an expense here that needs to be considered.

3. Most banks charge a "transaction fee" in addition to a "discount rate". This can dramatically increase the real cost of having a merchant account.

4. Gateway fees - You will still need to run your transactions through a "gateway", like Jettis, Paycom, CCBill, etc and will be charged a small transaction fee for this service.

If you factor in the "discount rate", bank transaction fees, gate way fees, chargeback fees, customer service fees and fraud control fees, you will see that your actual cost of having your own merchant account will only be slightly less than going through a 3rd party processor. For example, Jettis currently starts new clients at a rate of 12.5%. Having your own merchant account would probably cost you in the range of 9% - 11%, depending on volume and which vendors you select to provide the services mentioned above.

Is there still a slight premium charged to go through a 3rd party processor? Yes, but I do think it's warranted (provided it's not a large premium) given the fact that the 3rd party processor is still taking the risk with the bank.

Again, I think having your own merchant account vs going with a 3rd party biller is a choice that needs to be made by each individual or company based on their particular needs and circumstances. Jettis can provide services to both types of clients, so we certainly won't push anyone in one direction vs another, but we'd be glad to help you make the decision that's best for you and help you though getting your own merchant account if that is the direction you want to go in.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be tightening up the methods by which you prevent chargebacks, or is it really accepted as the standard to simply decline half the attempted transactions as a method of prevention? Doesn't really sound like the optimal solution to me, but then, I'm no expert.

I think I can speak for all 3rd party processors on this one. While everyone has their own methods, many of the techniques used by 3rd party billing companies are similar. A LOT more goes into it than just declining half of the attempted transactions. The fact is that MOST declines are "bank declines" which has nothing to do with the 3rd party processor. After that, declines happen for a variety of reasons including risk scoring, spending limits, fraud data, etc. Remember, we have no financial motive to decline transactions. We only make money on good transactions so it's in our best interest to let as many transactions through as possible, while keeping fraud to a minimum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Please explain in your own words WHY I, as a site owner, should continue the use 3rd party billing and pay your per transaction percentages as a processing solution as opposed to setting up my own merchant account and taking matters into my own hands. If you choose to insult me (as I have seen happen here in the last 2 days) rather than provide a reasonable and convincing answer, consider yourself off the table as an option.

As mentioned above, Jettis wouldn't try to convince you to keep using a 3rd party biller. We would simply inform you of all the pros and cons and then help you move in whichever direction you decide is best for your business.

Amputate Your Head · 10-03-2002, 08:12 PM

Thank you very much Ken..... very stand up of you to address these questions as I know they are not easy to answer. Congrats on being the only one to address them. That speaks highly of your company.

Fletch XXX · 10-03-2002, 08:14 PM

Well said. Damn, this rounds on me.

\~/ \~/ \~/\~/

RonC · 10-04-2002, 10:48 AM

CCBILLS RESPONSE

1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim
and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how
this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go
through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain.

The new rules do not state that if a Sponsored Merchant is over the ratios
they will be fined. Just like before Nov 15th if your IPSP overall ratio are
out of complaince they will fine the entire portfolio. Think about why they
want to see this information. If Visa was going to make a major impact in
reducing CB in the system would they cancel 20 sites with a 5% cb ratio that
do 20k per week or would they look for 20 sites with a 5% CB rate doing a
million per week. Which group do you think would have the most impact in the
overall problem of chargebacks in the Visa network. A word of caution, Visa does
state the have the right to Terminate any Sponsored Merchant they want.

2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants.
If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only
affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other
ventures?

Visa will TMF your company, and as you put it you will be "personally fucked"

((( Remember when
applying for your own personal merchant account you will be filling out a lot more personal information,
like bank accounts, savings account, property, etc.. Bottom line is if you try it on your
own and blow up the account. You will find it very hard to continue. Think of Visa
reason, your business practices and your site were so shitty that they had to Terminate your account.
Why should they let you start over and do it again just because you want to use a 3rd party company?

3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be
explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and
Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I
think this whole thing is bullshit.

I agree it is bullshit. So far it appears Visa has not registered a new site
listing with yahoo and learned this trick of pay no matter what

)). If for
some reason we are not able to process transactions you will not be charged
a fee at CCbill.

4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction
percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the
main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site
owners for all they're worth?

This was answered above. Their is no loss of the umbrella. My guess is that
most processors internal risk procedures would have deactivated an account
that was running supper high CB prior to Visa Contacting us.

5. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be tightening up the methods by which
you prevent chargebacks, or is it really accepted as the standard to simply
decline half the attempted transactions as a method of prevention? Doesn't
really sound like the optimal solution to me, but then, I'm no expert.

I can not speak for other processors. Across all our sites. CCbill internal
scrub decline is about 6.5-7% depending upon the day. The rest of the
declines are from the banking network. (bank do not honor, NSF, Stolen card,
etc..) Not a lot we can do to force them down their throat. I see a business as
usual for CCbill at this point

6. Please explain in your own words WHY I, as a site owner, should continue
the use 3rd party billing and pay your per transaction percentages as a
processing solution as opposed to setting up my own merchant account and
taking matters into my own hands. If you choose to insult me (as I have seen
happen here in the last 2 days) rather than provide a reasonable and
convincing answer, consider yourself off the table as an option.

I will post something in more detail in a later post

Ron C
CEO, CCbill.com

RonC · 10-04-2002, 11:25 AM

MultiBill

Dan we have asked this question of Visa several times. I completly agree. Once we pay the fee it should be Universal.
Even as 3rd party processors Visa wants us to pay the Registration fee to each bank that we use.

This is a Very Important point.

The Fee is a Registration at the bank that we process Visa with!!!!!

If your 3rd party processor does not have good business practices and or scrub is not set correctly. You as a webmaster could have to pay this fee again if the IPSP switches banks before the Year is up

We all know that some IPSPs have used the bank switching
game in the past to start new ratios at a new bank so they could allow for more through put. They will still be able to do that, but the Cost is going to be extreme.

I can not speak for other 3rd party companies but CCbill has only had 2 merchant accounts in the last 5 years. The reason for Switching from one was the bank was getting out of the Adult buisness.

vik · 10-04-2002, 11:25 AM

For Sunshine -

Honest webmasters have chargeback ratios no matter how good they are. When I was with WWIA, their sys admin NEVER processed anything, I had to do it myself, and I didn't wait until next week, or even the next day. It was done within hours of the e-mail. Hence, I had their lowest charge-back ratio at WWIA, and was able to continue on in business (after WWIA had their account blocked).

In addition, no matter how good we are, when we REFUND a subscription, unknown to most of us, that refund also counts as a charge-back (unless VISA, etc has changed this area). So being a "good-guy" doesn't even pay, you end up with the same ratio.

To Ron at CCBILL -

Good to hear from you. Don't know if you remember me ([email protected]), but we say hi at every Internext convention. Thanks for giving us some insight into this major problem.

vik

RonC · 10-04-2002, 11:28 AM

Vik

Yes I remember you

)) Cb are not going away, all we can do is good disclosure, give them what we sold them, good customer support, and try to keep the bad people out of your system.

Ron C

vik · 10-04-2002, 11:33 AM

Ron,

Yes, I agree, and hopefully my cb ratio with you guys is low enough so I can continue on in this business (must not be too bad, no notices from CCBILL in over 2 1/2 years).

Question, will CCBILL be able to help us webmasters on this $750 payment, like maybe a small percentage each check, like you now do on the reserve? $750.00 for us small guys is a big hit when we didn't see it coming.

vik

gothweb · 10-04-2002, 11:49 AM

The billers seem to say they will still charge the same cut, because we are still just as protected and are offered just as much...

1. We are not just as protected. Now we can get blacklisted for having a high CB rate. Before, we could not. Less protection. Not zero protection, but nobody said the percentage should go to zero.

2. We now have to pay $750 to Visa to cover things that they used to cover. Why are we eating all of this cost, while the billers are getting part of the $250?

3. The differentiation between IPSPs and merchant accounts are lessened. Why isn't the cut that the IPSPs take lessened to account for that?

4. Holdbacks. We are getting 5-10% held back. This was supposed to cover chargebacks. Now, the picture is changed. You still going to keep 5% of my money for six months?

Amputate Your Head · 10-04-2002, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonC
2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants.
If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only
affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other
ventures?

Visa will TMF your company, and as you put it you will be "personally fucked" ((( Remember when
applying for your own personal merchant account you will be filling out a lot more personal information,
like bank accounts, savings account, property, etc.. Bottom line is if you try it on your
own and blow up the account. You will find it very hard to continue. Think of Visa
reason, your business practices and your site were so shitty that they had to Terminate your account.
Why should they let you start over and do it again just because you want to use a 3rd party company?

Ron C
CEO, CCbill.com

not good....

Amputate Your Head · 10-04-2002, 12:09 PM

but thanks for clearing some of that stuff up Ron.... I appreciate it very much.

steffie · 10-04-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head

3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I think this whole thing is bullshit.

/AMp

I asked them about that, because I have some Niche sites Visa might not like. This is the answer I got

"You pay your fee, Visa looks at your sites! If they don't like one site they will denie billing on the entire account! and you do NOT get your money back"

So basically - If you have a site with brunettes and visa doesn't like it they tell you "Fuck you" and close all of your account and not just that one URL!

Amputate Your Head · 10-04-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by steffie

I asked them about that, because I have some Niche sites Visa might not like. This is the answer I got

"You pay your fee, Visa looks at your sites! If they don't like one site they will denie billing on the entire account! and you do NOT get your money back"

So basically - If you have a site with brunettes and visa doesn't like it they tell you "Fuck you" and close all of your account and not just that one URL!

I had a bad feeling that was going to be the answer to that.....

also not good.

So now we are pretty much totally at the mercy of Visa.

steffie · 10-04-2002, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buster
rocking questions amp!!!

i have not seen this answered yet and maybe some one knows the answer,,, i have sites that proccess at ccbill and ibill. do i have to pay up at both proccesors .

peace
localg

Yes you do!

Amputate Your Head · 10-04-2002, 12:32 PM

So, as I'm trying to put all of this into perspective here.... I'm really not liking the way it's shaping up. It seems that we will now be completely at the mercy of Visa as to whether or not we are able to continue business.

1. If they feel they don't like just one site.... our processing days are over.

2. If, for whatever reason, be it fault of my own or not, processing is lost and the company blacklisted, then I as an individual am fucked for processing for any other ventures I may have. So any other businesses I have on the Net processing CC's goes down as well.

Well.... with that in mind, I can't see a reason to even bother with the other points... how the hell can I risk that? I can't. Might as well plan to shut down any paysites right now, because I certainly am not going to put my personal name on the line and hope that Visa finds it in their heart to allow me to continue.

this whole fucking thing sucks ass.

steffie · 10-04-2002, 12:40 PM

You have it wrong, its not called Visa anymore its called
KGB -

Censorship -

They tell you what they like or what they don't like, whats morally cool and what isn't.

Somebody in another threat asked about Fantasy Rape sites, I called one of the billers! They told me Visa will NOT bill for them. I asked that biller if they are going to send out an email regarding this. They said they would!

So whoever you are with that Fantasy Rape site, kiss Visa bye bye

plus some other sites are on the hit list too..

Amputate Your Head · 10-04-2002, 12:46 PM

The only REAL workable solutions I can see so far is either to switch to Globill, or try to continue without processing Visa.... but if Mastercard and the rest follow suit, which I imagine they will... then it's either Globill or a new line of business.

Serge_Oprano · 10-04-2002, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head
...or a new line of business.

I like my burger medium rare....and go easy on the pickles

Serge_Oprano · 10-04-2002, 12:57 PM

Amp,
drop the exact location of the hawaian burger joint you end up,
I travel and I'd appreciate the personal service from you at the place of your new employment

10-03-2002, 04:04 PM	#2
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	bump. Good hard questions. Now let's see how much weaselling we get. Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

10-03-2002, 04:07 PM	#3
SetTheWorldonFire Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: California Posts: 7,444	I really liked the Wal-Mart comparison. Works for me __________________ www.STWOFDesign.com hit me up on icq 154206276 or Skype: JaimeGizzle

10-03-2002, 04:38 PM	#16
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	I'm not trying to bash on anyone.... these are legit questions (in my first post) that I'm really hoping to get some answers to soon so that we can decide what to do and which way to go. I'm not about to blindly follow the lemmings over the cliff in either direction until I have some more facts on this situation, because it IS going to affect the future of how this business is conducted. __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-03-2002, 04:55 PM	#20
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	Another question gets added to the list: Is it true that Mastercard has also adopted this new policy? __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-03-2002, 05:22 PM	#24
MultiBill Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia & LasVegas, Nevada & Manila, Philippines Posts: 62	Amputate Your Head Whilst most people have been slamming the boards with a vast array of rhetoric, I have been working very closely with my processors (who I also like to consider my partners in billing). As I see it, the third party processors still have an imporatnt role to play for all of us, and you should all be talking to them with respect to these major points: 1) How to handle and protect current rebills 2) How to prepare for sales post Nov 15, 2002 Then you need to get very specific about the chargeback issue, and the umbrella you spoke of. Whilst it is true Visa will be looking at chargebacks to the URL, your processor should be doing two things for you, being: 1) Micro-managing chargebacks on each URL (meaning, ensuring that b4 they have to report the chargebacks, you are given the chance to fix any problems) 2) The processor should be covering all penalty fees (my understanding is that iBill and CCBill have always covered any penalties, and they are sure to keep doing so). There are many other micro matters to deal with, and each one of them is being addressed to my billing partners, and not aired here on the boards. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the time to be working together to build a strong and profitable industry. Slanging off on the boards will not achive this in any stretch of anyones imagination. Sure, ask questions of your peers, and I am sure we will all respond. But do you really think Visa etc arent reading this stuff I can assure you all that Visa is not after everyone. They are after the scammers and thiefs that work within our industry, and cause all of us untold grief. To these scammers, I say "let them hang"! I have a copy of the Visa regulations on my desk, and it is quite clear that Visa wants to make sure that if you get on their TMF (Terminated Merchant File), you dont just pop up somewhere else under a new company identity. If you run a clean ship, these chnages will hardly affect you. The only real losers I see are the little guys who can ill afford the fees to keep compliant (particulalry the offshore guys). Staying in business as a paysite may be very hard for them. And in saying that, if you are a small guy, and you decide to switch from paysite to free site, please choose your sponsors carefully, as they just might be the people Visa has on their TMF Best of luck to all Daniel ICQ: 92462894 [email protected] __________________ Optmized Payment Protection

10-03-2002, 04:07 PM	#4
Krome Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: London - UK Posts: 2,851	I want to know where this $250 goes that the processors get...I think they may have a bigger coke habit than me...as for Visa they must be importing the shit for personal use...

10-03-2002, 04:08 PM	#5
hershie Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,642	god, i can't believe the endless questions that need answering - where does it end.

10-03-2002, 04:11 PM	#7
Ursa Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern California Posts: 2	Excellent questions. I, too, want the answers.

10-03-2002, 04:16 PM	#9
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	http://www.tunafishbitch.com/forum/s...4&pagenumber=2 That I believe is a partial answer to one of your q's Amp --

10-03-2002, 04:18 PM	#10
Krome Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: London - UK Posts: 2,851	This is my opinion why it has happened: a) We are in a cash recession at the moment Visa needs cash for peoples spending at Christmas. b) Why not pick on a load of people who traditionally society dislikes. What we should do is just get our own online merchant accounts and say bye bye to processors. Globill have taken on 10 extra staff to cope with the influx of new business, apparently yesterday they signed up over 600 sites.

10-03-2002, 04:33 PM	#13
RATBOY Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,592	I am VERY interested in the conclusion Amp comes to, and if the 3rd party guys are reading this they should know a HELL of a lot of others are too. Amp is a legend here and people listen like he is the end-all to any issue.

10-03-2002, 04:35 PM	#15
Sunshine McGillicutty So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: California Posts: 475	good stuff amp I'd like to see these answered too, but i'm afraid its not going to happen. The 'big 3' have already divulged their strategy. like religious nuts they first attempt to coerce, then they insult, and if that doesn't work, the threats begin.

10-03-2002, 04:59 PM	#21
hershie Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,642	well, if all that wasn't enough! eBay's purchase of PayPal official as of today and all the potential uncertainty of eBay pulling the plug on transactions amongst our industry because of Public Relations concerns... (just wait till a media story is done on someone who got caught buying CP using PayPal). Anyway here is the story about the purchase of PayPal that became official today: It's official: eBay weds PayPal http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1017-...&subj=cnetnews

10-03-2002, 05:16 PM	#22
ColKurtz So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambodia Posts: 596	The question none of them will touch.... How does knocking some little webmasters paysite ,that gets a chargeback once in a blue moon and uses full disclosure, out of business solve any of the problems in this industry? The big guys who are scamming and what not, will continue to do so as they burn through merchant account and corportate shells. My advice to anyone is to hold off paying these blackmail fees. See how it pans out. Don't just blindly hand over money.

10-03-2002, 05:31 PM	#26
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	Visa has challenged the Almighty Dollar, we see what happens when one advances the throne of currency. The Government will not allow its funds to be superceded by a non profit org like Visa. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

10-03-2002, 05:49 PM	#28
buster Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 459	rocking questions amp!!! i have not seen this answered yet and maybe some one knows the answer,,, i have sites that proccess at ccbill and ibill. do i have to pay up at both proccesors . peace localg __________________ CUSTOM SETUP FOR EACH WEBMASTER !! JUST ASK ICQ 133566063 FREE CONTENT

10-03-2002, 05:54 PM	#30
buster Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 459	Double dippin on the same url gotta love it ... peace' localg __________________ CUSTOM SETUP FOR EACH WEBMASTER !! JUST ASK ICQ 133566063 FREE CONTENT

10-03-2002, 06:51 PM	#31
MultiBill Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia & LasVegas, Nevada & Manila, Philippines Posts: 62	Amp I agree this is all very concering, but I would still receommend dealing with your IPSP b4 hitting the baords. I can assure you that I got a whole lot more from my direct interaction. And in response to the value of third party processing, I thought I answered that in my original post regarding micro-management of URL's and Fee containment ** Buster I actually use three processors, and I too have asked this question without a response yet. As I see it, the $750 fee is for Visa to check my credentials, and that I am not on the TMF. One has to wonder why Visa neds to check me three times then??? So your point is very valid, but I too have no response yet. Fletch XXX I too think times ahead will be interesting with the anti-trust case against Visa and these new regulations. I am not sure that our processors will be wanting to enter that war, as their primary motivation will be to pretect our current businesses, and not annoy Visa. So the question is "who will take the fight to Visa"? ** Daniel __________________ Optmized Payment Protection

10-03-2002, 08:07 PM	#32
Ken Make more with us. Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 562	Amp, Jettis will be making a formal announcement tomorrow regarding the new Visa regs, but here is my take on a few of your specific questions. My major points of interest right now: ---------------------------------------------------------- 1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain. While many of the benefits of using a 3rd party processor will be gone when the new regs go into effect, there are still a few benefits that will remain. As I see it, these are the benefits that one can still expect after the new regs are in place: 1. You don't need to sign a personal guarantee with the bank (the processor still takes the financial risk) 2. People with bad/marginal credit can still process 3. Simplified accounting (reconciling funds that go in and out of a merchant account can be very tricky. All of the other things that are offered via a 3rd party billing company can also be acquired on an "ala carte" basis if you have your own merchant account. For example, Jettis has many clients who have their own merchant accounts. These clients also pay us for services like fraud control, 24/7 customer service, affiliate software, database management, etc, etc. For some merchants, having their own merchant account will be a better way to go. For others, the remaining benefits offered by 3rd party processors will still be enough to warrant paying a small premium to 3rd party processors. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants. If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other ventures? This is a great question and is an issue that is still being researched to ensure an accurate answer. We'll post this information once we have a definitive answer from Visa. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I think this whole thing is bullshit. Again, we are researching this issue. Many of these types of scenarios have not been clearly defined by Visa or are still being clarified. The reason VISA wants URL information is to prevent bad merchants from skipping from one 3rd party processor to another. However, I agree with you that if your "URL" or account is not approved, you should not have to pay the fee. Unfortunately, I didn't make the rules, so just because I agree with you doesn't mean Visa will ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site owners for all they're worth? This is a good question, but one that should be based on the real facts about the "cost of processing". Most people think that 3rd party billers pay 4%-5% for their merchant account, charge 15% and the difference is pure profit. This is not the case. Here are hard expenses that you would have to pay if you had your own merchant account: 1. 24/7 live customer service. This is 100% necessary to keep chargebacks under control and is a SIGNIFICANT expense as a % of your 3rd party processing fees. 2. Fraud Control - If you had your own merchant account, you would need to pay someone for fraud control. Jettis offers this ala carte, as do most processors, but there is an expense here that needs to be considered. 3. Most banks charge a "transaction fee" in addition to a "discount rate". This can dramatically increase the real cost of having a merchant account. 4. Gateway fees - You will still need to run your transactions through a "gateway", like Jettis, Paycom, CCBill, etc and will be charged a small transaction fee for this service. If you factor in the "discount rate", bank transaction fees, gate way fees, chargeback fees, customer service fees and fraud control fees, you will see that your actual cost of having your own merchant account will only be slightly less than going through a 3rd party processor. For example, Jettis currently starts new clients at a rate of 12.5%. Having your own merchant account would probably cost you in the range of 9% - 11%, depending on volume and which vendors you select to provide the services mentioned above. Is there still a slight premium charged to go through a 3rd party processor? Yes, but I do think it's warranted (provided it's not a large premium) given the fact that the 3rd party processor is still taking the risk with the bank. Again, I think having your own merchant account vs going with a 3rd party biller is a choice that needs to be made by each individual or company based on their particular needs and circumstances. Jettis can provide services to both types of clients, so we certainly won't push anyone in one direction vs another, but we'd be glad to help you make the decision that's best for you and help you though getting your own merchant account if that is the direction you want to go in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be tightening up the methods by which you prevent chargebacks, or is it really accepted as the standard to simply decline half the attempted transactions as a method of prevention? Doesn't really sound like the optimal solution to me, but then, I'm no expert. I think I can speak for all 3rd party processors on this one. While everyone has their own methods, many of the techniques used by 3rd party billing companies are similar. A LOT more goes into it than just declining half of the attempted transactions. The fact is that MOST declines are "bank declines" which has nothing to do with the 3rd party processor. After that, declines happen for a variety of reasons including risk scoring, spending limits, fraud data, etc. Remember, we have no financial motive to decline transactions. We only make money on good transactions so it's in our best interest to let as many transactions through as possible, while keeping fraud to a minimum. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. Please explain in your own words WHY I, as a site owner, should continue the use 3rd party billing and pay your per transaction percentages as a processing solution as opposed to setting up my own merchant account and taking matters into my own hands. If you choose to insult me (as I have seen happen here in the last 2 days) rather than provide a reasonable and convincing answer, consider yourself off the table as an option. As mentioned above, Jettis wouldn't try to convince you to keep using a 3rd party biller. We would simply inform you of all the pros and cons and then help you move in whichever direction you decide is best for your business. __________________ Ken ColdHardCash.com. The next big thing in adult. VividCash.com - Check out the all new Vivid.com! Domain Development Corp - Premier Domain Parking and Management!

10-03-2002, 08:12 PM	#33
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	Thank you very much Ken..... very stand up of you to address these questions as I know they are not easy to answer. Congrats on being the only one to address them. That speaks highly of your company. __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-03-2002, 08:14 PM	#34
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	Well said. Damn, this rounds on me. \~/ \~/ \~/\~/ __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

10-04-2002, 10:48 AM	#35
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	CCBILLS RESPONSE 1. The big push for continuing to use a 3rd party processor (according to Kim and some others) is the chargeback thing. But I can't really understand how this is a positive sell, since we're still fucked either way, whether we go through you or whther we use our own merchant account. Please do explain. The new rules do not state that if a Sponsored Merchant is over the ratios they will be fined. Just like before Nov 15th if your IPSP overall ratio are out of complaince they will fine the entire portfolio. Think about why they want to see this information. If Visa was going to make a major impact in reducing CB in the system would they cancel 20 sites with a 5% cb ratio that do 20k per week or would they look for 20 sites with a 5% CB rate doing a million per week. Which group do you think would have the most impact in the overall problem of chargebacks in the Visa network. A word of caution, Visa does state the have the right to Terminate any Sponsored Merchant they want. 2. I'm very curious about the info and basis of information that Visa wants. If one of my companies is blacklisted (for whatever reason) will that only affect that company, or am I personally fucked as an individual for my other ventures? Visa will TMF your company, and as you put it you will be "personally fucked" ((( Remember when applying for your own personal merchant account you will be filling out a lot more personal information, like bank accounts, savings account, property, etc.. Bottom line is if you try it on your own and blow up the account. You will find it very hard to continue. Think of Visa reason, your business practices and your site were so shitty that they had to Terminate your account. Why should they let you start over and do it again just because you want to use a 3rd party company? 3. The url approval thing is bothering me as well. I wish this would be explained in more detail. If I decide to pay my fee for Visa processing, and Visa decides not to approve my url, are they going to refund the fee? I think this whole thing is bullshit. I agree it is bullshit. So far it appears Visa has not registered a new site listing with yahoo and learned this trick of pay no matter what)). If for some reason we are not able to process transactions you will not be charged a fee at CCbill. 4. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be reducing the transaction percentages now due to the loss of the major umbrella that was in fact the main attraction to using 3rd party billing, or will you simply milk the site owners for all they're worth? This was answered above. Their is no loss of the umbrella. My guess is that most processors internal risk procedures would have deactivated an account that was running supper high CB prior to Visa Contacting us. 5. Will you, as a 3rd party processor, be tightening up the methods by which you prevent chargebacks, or is it really accepted as the standard to simply decline half the attempted transactions as a method of prevention? Doesn't really sound like the optimal solution to me, but then, I'm no expert. I can not speak for other processors. Across all our sites. CCbill internal scrub decline is about 6.5-7% depending upon the day. The rest of the declines are from the banking network. (bank do not honor, NSF, Stolen card, etc..) Not a lot we can do to force them down their throat. I see a business as usual for CCbill at this point 6. Please explain in your own words WHY I, as a site owner, should continue the use 3rd party billing and pay your per transaction percentages as a processing solution as opposed to setting up my own merchant account and taking matters into my own hands. If you choose to insult me (as I have seen happen here in the last 2 days) rather than provide a reasonable and convincing answer, consider yourself off the table as an option. I will post something in more detail in a later post Ron C CEO, CCbill.com

10-04-2002, 11:25 AM	#36
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	MultiBill Dan we have asked this question of Visa several times. I completly agree. Once we pay the fee it should be Universal. Even as 3rd party processors Visa wants us to pay the Registration fee to each bank that we use. This is a Very Important point. The Fee is a Registration at the bank that we process Visa with!!!!! If your 3rd party processor does not have good business practices and or scrub is not set correctly. You as a webmaster could have to pay this fee again if the IPSP switches banks before the Year is up We all know that some IPSPs have used the bank switching game in the past to start new ratios at a new bank so they could allow for more through put. They will still be able to do that, but the Cost is going to be extreme. I can not speak for other 3rd party companies but CCbill has only had 2 merchant accounts in the last 5 years. The reason for Switching from one was the bank was getting out of the Adult buisness.

10-04-2002, 11:25 AM	#37
vik Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 144	For Sunshine - Honest webmasters have chargeback ratios no matter how good they are. When I was with WWIA, their sys admin NEVER processed anything, I had to do it myself, and I didn't wait until next week, or even the next day. It was done within hours of the e-mail. Hence, I had their lowest charge-back ratio at WWIA, and was able to continue on in business (after WWIA had their account blocked). In addition, no matter how good we are, when we REFUND a subscription, unknown to most of us, that refund also counts as a charge-back (unless VISA, etc has changed this area). So being a "good-guy" doesn't even pay, you end up with the same ratio. To Ron at CCBILL - Good to hear from you. Don't know if you remember me ([email protected]), but we say hi at every Internext convention. Thanks for giving us some insight into this major problem. vik __________________ PhotosByVik.com Photonudity.com

10-04-2002, 11:28 AM	#38
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	Vik Yes I remember you)) Cb are not going away, all we can do is good disclosure, give them what we sold them, good customer support, and try to keep the bad people out of your system. Ron C

10-04-2002, 11:33 AM	#39
vik Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 144	Ron, Yes, I agree, and hopefully my cb ratio with you guys is low enough so I can continue on in this business (must not be too bad, no notices from CCBILL in over 2 1/2 years). Question, will CCBILL be able to help us webmasters on this $750 payment, like maybe a small percentage each check, like you now do on the reserve? $750.00 for us small guys is a big hit when we didn't see it coming. vik __________________ PhotosByVik.com Photonudity.com

10-04-2002, 11:49 AM	#40
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	The billers seem to say they will still charge the same cut, because we are still just as protected and are offered just as much... 1. We are not just as protected. Now we can get blacklisted for having a high CB rate. Before, we could not. Less protection. Not zero protection, but nobody said the percentage should go to zero. 2. We now have to pay $750 to Visa to cover things that they used to cover. Why are we eating all of this cost, while the billers are getting part of the $250? 3. The differentiation between IPSPs and merchant accounts are lessened. Why isn't the cut that the IPSPs take lessened to account for that? 4. Holdbacks. We are getting 5-10% held back. This was supposed to cover chargebacks. Now, the picture is changed. You still going to keep 5% of my money for six months? __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

10-04-2002, 12:09 PM	#42
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	but thanks for clearing some of that stuff up Ron.... I appreciate it very much. __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-04-2002, 12:32 PM	#46
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	So, as I'm trying to put all of this into perspective here.... I'm really not liking the way it's shaping up. It seems that we will now be completely at the mercy of Visa as to whether or not we are able to continue business. 1. If they feel they don't like just one site.... our processing days are over. 2. If, for whatever reason, be it fault of my own or not, processing is lost and the company blacklisted, then I as an individual am fucked for processing for any other ventures I may have. So any other businesses I have on the Net processing CC's goes down as well. Well.... with that in mind, I can't see a reason to even bother with the other points... how the hell can I risk that? I can't. Might as well plan to shut down any paysites right now, because I certainly am not going to put my personal name on the line and hope that Visa finds it in their heart to allow me to continue. this whole fucking thing sucks ass. __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-04-2002, 12:40 PM	#47
steffie Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains, far far away Posts: 2,422	You have it wrong, its not called Visa anymore its called KGB - Censorship - They tell you what they like or what they don't like, whats morally cool and what isn't. Somebody in another threat asked about Fantasy Rape sites, I called one of the billers! They told me Visa will NOT bill for them. I asked that biller if they are going to send out an email regarding this. They said they would! So whoever you are with that Fantasy Rape site, kiss Visa bye bye plus some other sites are on the hit list too.. __________________ Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

10-04-2002, 12:46 PM	#48
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	The only REAL workable solutions I can see so far is either to switch to Globill, or try to continue without processing Visa.... but if Mastercard and the rest follow suit, which I imagine they will... then it's either Globill or a new line of business. __________________ SIG TOO BIG

10-04-2002, 12:57 PM	#50
Serge_Oprano So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 9,820	Amp, drop the exact location of the hawaian burger joint you end up, I travel and I'd appreciate the personal service from you at the place of your new employment