I wouldn't say thats 100% correct. Python.com has worked with Rabbit for a long time and our HD members area gets better every day, not too shabby for an entirely new program that was built from the ground up and launched in just 6 months from idea to live product.

I go back and forth with rabbit all the time, constantly working to improve the business relationship.. sometimes we have big fundamental disagreements.. but we keep on working at it.

Happily, I'm one of the rare programs out there that doesn't do any of the things you mentioned. The cookie expires after 6 months... but I think that's quite generous.

marc

http://www.movieroom.com

This thread has the makings of a GFY classic and likely another bromaster entry for 12clicks. :)


Rabbit - You have enough clout and quality traffic to just hit up the programs and have them raise your percentage. That is if you feel under compensated. Many small sites rely on those upsells/etc to try and stay in business.

Do you factor those upsells/cross sells into the reviews?

Yep... just as I suspected. You have absolutely nothing worthy to say. Thanks for confirming it.

It is quite pathetic indeed.

The question then becomes, do you want to do business with companies that TRY to stay in business?

and i give you my respect :) i think that IS a fair expiry period for cookies, and it is also what i give to rabbitsreviews affiliates

never. some of our highest rated sites are sadly also the worst converting. When things like that happen i try to work with the sponsor on a case-by-case basis to see what we can improve that will help us both make more money.

even though we do have volume, we're also pushing over 1000 different sponsors. unfortunately i dont have enough clout with all of them :)

that was my point all along, but you got distracted by the screaming headline... which was afterall my intention :)

I don't give them that choice ;)
WG

i keep saying this, but even the shittiest sites that get the worst reviews still get sales.

i was told by this company that they "scrub" 20% right off the top for fraud protection. i laughed, told the guy i do a lot of adult, and told him in this industry we call it "shaving"

we settled outta court with a 10% "scrub" as honestly.. its kinda what im used to from this end anyways.

Wow. You think of your affiliates as employees? I am absolutely speechless that you would admit thinking this way. I can tell by the tone of your posts you are an asshat, but that attitude won't win you many new "employees". Of course you sound so smart you've probably already calculated the cost of being ignorant on the largest webmaster board. :thumbsup Goodluck with that.

Why do some programs only offer rev-share anyways? Is it really so fucking hard to calculate a present value of an average sign up? This way all the xsells etc are not an issue. If a program advertises 50% rev share you should pay 50% on everything xsells, upsells, life-time re-bills...

rabbit, you have to understand that name calling and insults is a common thing to do by most long-term members over at "that other board", it's usually done with no reason too

and if/when you stand up against it, you will be bashed even more :1orglaugh

Interesting thoughts...

I'm not saying I like these things but we have to have a definition of a word. Shaving to me is not giving you credit or removing credit for sales you've made to the join form. The sales you're supposed to get credit for which you are told about when you join the program. Cross sales and upsells are not shaving. Redirecting foreign traffic to a place you don't get credit for is just that, not giving you credit for that traffic. Cookie expiration should be set way into the future but having one expire is not shaving.

Not all, but with more than 10 years experience I can say most of them in fact do shave ... just some worse than others.

What we as an industry have come to accept as standard adult business practices are in fact very shady and what I consider far from acceptable.

If you want me to be fair and honest about doing business with you, I expect the very same thing from you.

I think that if a company gives FOR ANY reason doesn't give you credit for the traffic you sent them, it's fraud. Call it shaving or whatever you want, but in the end it's fraud. Up sells, redirection of foreign traffic - any and all of that is shady, shady, shady.

As for cookie expiration, if the company has told you in advance the cookie will expire in say X amount of time, then I think that's more than fair. As long you know in advance, it's not unethical to me.

Speak for yourself

I vehemently disagree that a program, revshare or PPS, would credit an affiliate for an up-sell sale. An upsell defined as a product/service sold in the members area of a paysite. (excluding 'free'-type email and other programs that are base a payout on an assumed upsell, ie wegcash join4free)

The affiliate program owns that members area 100% and has invested 100% of the capital to produce and maintain that asset. The affiliate has absolutey no ownership of the members area and in no way should receive $$ from up-sells. If a program decides to do so, that's their perogative, but it shouldn't be assumed.

When affiliates start paying bills associated with the members area, then they can lay claim to the revenue.

How many affiliates would pony up $50k, $100k, or $500k. $2M to invest into a members area for a share of the revenue??? That is what members' areas cost - upsells are a reward that the sponsor program earns for assuming 100% of the investment risk, the transaction risk, etc.

It's time that the word "partnership" means just that - Affiliate programs do not exist to provide a handout to webmasters. The capitalist system is based on the ability of agents (individuals/companies) to earn a profit from the assumption of risk. Until an affiliate participates in the risk, they should not participate in the reward.

/rant.

PS - page 3

What do you call this Steve?

One of your join pages...

http://www.explictflicks.com/?0000000000 (click join)

"No Credit Card? Free Access By Check (USA Only) Click Here"

does the affiliate get credit for that check sale?

see the '0000000000' in the electra cash link? i would guess that it is credited.

sherlock :pimp

you would certainly think. huh?

If you think adult is bad, mainstream is worse. Buy a domain through GoDaddy and tell me how many upsells they hit you up for. I just ran a background check through Intelius a month ago and was somehow opted into some privacy service that I had no fucking idea about. See how easy it is to cancel from a lot of popular mainstream dating sites and other services.

Adult does some fucked up things, but compared to the shit in mainstream, it's fairly tame.

Since when do you work at 2am, damn!
WG

When programs start getting traffic on their own, then they can drop affiliates.

No offense, I just hate this crying routine from programs about all the money and bills associated with their site. You chose to run a program and you chose the fact that you needed affiliates to make it survive. You also choose what you want to pay out and are competing with every other program in the industry. I'm not saying that your thoughts are wrong in any way, I'm just saying that you shouldn't blame affiliates for wanting more. It's just simple business, everyone looking for the best deal.

My cookie expires after 255 days, the longest that is allowed last time I checked which was a year or so ago...

No cross sales
No Upsales
No Leaks on affiliate tour AT ALL

Also Rabbit: Since I have a score of 83, I should be listed as no lower than the #2 black site, No?
http://www.rabbitsreviews.com/s2649/...na-Finder.html

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

The program that Persian Kitty and I are launching is going to make your dicks tingle :)

don't like it, START YOUR OWN FUCKING PROGRAM

bitching idiot affiliates have to be the biggest nuisance in this fucking industry

Nice rounded corners in CSS...

I could see this falling into Other Score bringing it to 20...
Then Site Design getting another point for 7...

6 extra points... 89...

Not going to bother to read the thread as I'm sure it will be the same old arguments. However for those who get this far consider this.

There has to a profit in it for the sponsor. Without it the sponsor goes broke and you COULD lose even more.

Affiliates need to watch what they earn from a sponsor related to the amount of work they put in.

Most sponsors understand that the more their affiliates earn the more likely they are to keep them. Long term it's good business.

The money has to be divided between running the site and paying for traffic, spend too much on traffic and the content suffers, spend too much on content and the traffic suffers. It's about getting the balance right. If you want great converting content that will look and feel different than the other 20,000 paysites out there the money has to come from somewhere. Should a company millions to give affiliates 60% on a site that is totally unique and converts or spend spend $50,000 and is no different?

Or just let the industry stagnate with the top dogs? And a few of the big porn companies.

2008 is going to be the toughest year we've known. The fall out is going to be immense. Let's consider what we need to do and stop moaning about the most important people, sponsors, staying in business. If you disagree with the sponsor being the top dog, consider who brings the $$$ into the business. Never seen a traffic site that charged surfers.

In saying that I will be increasing the cookie expiration and payments to affiliates today. Seems the balance has tipped too far in my favor.

Ummm.... Lets see...

Me, Pr0, VforV, Blogster, Slapass, Boneprone, Sleazy, luv$, Jace, nettrust, I can keep going but I think I made my point.

Actually it has already started. Spyware, Tubes, sponsors buying traffic sites.

The best deal is giving the customer the best experience for the money you can. Many sponsors and affiliates understand this and many are just looking to screw the maximum dollar out of the surfer. Making everyones job harder for tomorrow.

Which is now today.

well.. I usually don't post any replies, but this one was essential.
YEAH .. every sponsor shaves like hell , the hosting is TOO EXPENSIVE and finally there is NO MONEY IN PORN ...!
I knew I should be a lawyer! :321GFY

http://www.comicsreporter.com/images...ania_thumb.jpg

linkhotten

Out of morbid curiosity, what would make send traffic there?

ouch :Oh crap