those are completely different in my opinion. but i do i believe capitol punishment should include attempted murder and rape.

killing a newborn baby is completely different then having an abortion. you can argue all you want with me and i won't change my opinion so don't even bother.

there should not be a limit on the number of abortions - that'd be an issue pretty quickly when someone's raped after having an abortion.

i think sterilization needs to be offered and educated early on as a form of birth control. as early as they start teaching about sex. (of course, i'd rather the parents deal with it, but the parents, in general, do not.)

so along side the basket of condoms they hand out to kids in school, they should have a "basket" of business cards for local sterilization surgeons.

I've heard these exact same lines from countless women on this issue and it still doesn't work for me. I understand what you're trying to say, and I AM pro choice.... but saying that mens opinions on it don't matter is bullshit. We are just as if not MORE responsible in the eyes of the world for a new child and women are the first ones pinning down that responsibility on the men after a child is born, so don't say we don;t have a voice in the matter, because we do. If you don't want men to have an opinion on it, then take on the full responsibility of the child and leave the guy alone.

Clearly wanting the cake and eating it too. If you were pregnant, suddenly it's all about, "it takes two", "support this, support that", "you need to be responsible".... we see the shit on Oprah all the fucking time... and they even go so far as to create new labels for men such as "Deadbeat Dads" etc... yet we get zero opinion on the issue of abortion? I think not. It's a 2 way street dear... with responsibility comes a price.

but I'm still pro choice, which lands me squarely back in your corner..... I just get sick of hearing how mens opinions on the issue mean nothing. Obviously, they do mean something.

Very revealing . I could always change my mind on anything ,including abortion , if presented with stong enough reasons . But at least you admit to being closed minded .

What about a young girl that gets raped and gets pregnant? Under no circumstances should she be forced to bring that child into the world. Especially considering chances are good her life will be ruined by doing so. On another note, sometimes forcing people to take responsibility for their actions is not the right course of action.

Women cannot come on this board and effectively argue the my body my choice stance. It's just not gonna fly here.

Of course a raped 12 year old should not be forced to have it. But they should end it in the first month. I never said abortion should be illegal.



What? Please elaborate.

This ought to be good.

my daughter is adopted.

make your choice before you have sex. not after.

Abortion is a girl's choice. Dont want a baby, don't have one.

i'm not closed minded at all. just some things there isn't anything that would change my mind. its like you trying to tell me 2+2=5.

someone is going for a DVD

Nor is it the woman's body, health, or life (except rarely). It's the baby's. The woman chose to spread her legs and allow herself to be penetrated knowing full well the possible consequences.

so people aren't allowed to have sex? you can take all the birth control you want, it can happen. if the child isn't wanted and adoption isn't the way they want to go, then have the abortion.

They can have all the sex they want but everyone knows that birth control is not 100% effective. Therefore, if a pregnancy results, there will be a baby that needs to be taken care of, not murdered in the womb.

if we can't control birth rates, thats not very good for a society. if someone doesn't want to have a child, its their choice.

its not murder if its not a fully functional human. thats not really a discussion i want to get into. have you ever murdered a sperm?

pimpdog is the result of someone not aborting when they should have.

Tell you what... go to Arlington National Cemetary and look at all the crosses, 99.99% of them male bodies put at risk so that you could make that ignorant and selfish statement in a free country. That alone gives us men the right to express ourselves on just about any topic.

Obviously, when men talk about abortion, we don't have a dog in the fight, but one might argue that because of that, our views will tend to be more objective, right?

A foetus is living human tissue with its own genetic code, arms and legs and a head. Nothing you say can wish that fact away: it's a different person.

Now, I believe in the rule of law so I don't believe in laying down in front of women going in for abortions, but I don't think it's a good thing. I don't think unwanted children are a good thing, either.

Obviously, in the case of incest or rape, it's a special case, but otherwise, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep from getting pregnant. It takes some birth control and some self control, the latter apparently being in short supply.

I think one of the things which has increased sexual irresponsibility has been the idea that the male shares some responsibility. This has the advantage of sounding nice and democratic, but like most concepts of shared responsibility, it has the result of making no one responsible.

If there was a chance I might get horribly ill and die if I did sex the wrong way, I'd be very careful about sex. I wouldn't make it the other party's responsibility: I would take responsibility for myself. However, what we forget is that it is the woman who gets pregnant, so it is really Nature's choice that it be her responsibility to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

Not only are there lots of ways to avoid pregnancy, there are even lots of ways for a COUPLE to avoid pregnancy. Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation, and so on. I don't feel sorry for a woman who gets pregnant without wanting to, because it's unlikely shy got into that situation by acting responsibly.

Ok... all my life I thought 'if you play with fire you're gonna get burned' so if you aren't ready to suffer the consequences, then don't play the game. I was very closed-minded at the time and basically, never bothered with anybody's excuses.

I had a friend who was getting married and her husband-to-be's sole objective was to have another child and to get her pregnant, preferably after they married but it happened before. He was the happiest man on earth until she reached her 11th week - then he decides that he doesn't want the baby - So there were decisions she had to make and fast - by the 10th week the embryo is considered a fetus and the risks of cancer and death for the mother would be considerably higher. Although this was not her choice, she either went ahead with it, or faced bringing up a child on her own (he wanted nothing to do with it). Seeing his crazy behaviour, she no longer wanted anything to do with him - and he vowed that he would make her life miserable (for the next 18 years) if she continued the pregnancy. So she went ahead and had the abortion (while he watched) and was miserable for a long time after that.

When I heard her story, in my opinion, she did the right thing. Rather than having that child suffer with a father that didn't want it *anymore* (like if it was something he bought in a moment of weakness) - or give it up for adoption - she decided to put a stop to everyone's misery.

Was it the best choice? I don't know, but I can only imagine that it's not easy making decisions like that especially when the baby was desired and not a *mistake*.

I don't agree with women who have sex unprotected, have different partners and have abortions because they can't use protection or withdrawal method or swallow (last I heard, that doesn't get you pregnant). Nor do I agree with men who claim *baby, its just not the same with a rubber on* or *let me explode just this once inside of you - nothing's gonna happen....trust me* Everyone's got a responsibility. I think ultimately, there should be a choice - preferably, it should be taken prior to the stick going in for a dip - but rather than having a bunch of unwanted - not cared for - abandoned - or even worse, finding babies left to die on the streets hours after birth, women should have a choice to terminate it.

Trixxie, I've met lots of people who were abandoned or unwanted by their father, and most of them would not have wanted to miss out on their life despite that one bad turn.

However, in THAT situation in particular, I do think the guy shouldn't be forced to get married, but should have been legally forced to support the child.

Pro choice or anti choice is more like it.

You believe in freedom, or you don't.

You're with us or you're against us.

If you don't like women having a choice, then go to Iraq you terrorist!

:)

If women used more of the choices they have and made them more wisely, there would be a lot fewer abortions.

When it comes to the decision to physically carry a child to term, that decision should ultimately be decided by the person who has to most to lose/risk. The woman clearly is that person.

Contrary to misguided beliefs expressed in this thread, gestating a baby is/can be extremely dangerous to any woman. A pregnant woman faces possible high blood pressure, diabetes and even death. I almost died giving birth.

To say that the father's opinion does not matter at all was extreme on my part. Nevertheless, the father does not risk their life and therefore their choice must take a back seat to the choice of the one who has the most to lose, the woman.

Choosing to carry a child to term should be a mutual decision between both progenitors but let's be realistic. Historically and statistically, women are the ones who mostly stay with and raise kids. Marriage was invented primarily to protect offspring from men's natural tendency to flee impending fatherhood. In times when mortality was high and females were not allowed to work in jobs, the only way to insure future generations would flourish was through the protection of children by the laws governing marriage/property/inheritance.

Today, population growth is not our concern as a species. Marriage is less and less a societal norm. Does this mean we have to go back to the days of exposing our unwanted infants in the town square? Do we return to the times where fellas got to make the babies yet didn't have to stick around? Is that how you want it?

There a three decisions to be made concerning a child:

1) To concieve it
2) To let it live
3) To raise it

I think that father/mother are both equally responsible for decisions one and three. Decison two should ideally be made by both parties but the one with the most at stake (the mother) should always have the last word.

there ya go.... much better. :winkwink:

but I got one little monkeywrench left to toss in there....

If decision 1 was thoughtfully considered, then #2 should not be a decision. It ties in fully with #1. To decide to conceive it IS a decision to let it live... unless, of course, there are some unforseen exceptional medical reasons why #2 has once again become a separate decision after the fact.

Thus, barring medical complications after the fact, if number 2 is to be a decision, number 1 cannot have existed. And if number 1 was not a conscious decision, then I must disagree on final word being placed solely with the female of the equation, because you are then deciding number 3 FOR the male. We both know that once number two has been decided in favor of life, that number 3 is no longer an option for the male, whether he likes it or not.

And that ain't right.

Yeah, it IS your bod..... but in that decision lies not only the future of the pending child, but also the future of a man's life.

all decisions default to decision one is my point. it seems to me, this decision has been shouldered by women too long, mostly AFTER decision two has been made. :Graucho

Every case is individual..all life is sacred.

Factors such as rape, life threatening illness, and many other aspects affect this most difficult of all choices.

I don't believe it is positive to generalise. I think every situation needs to be looked at on it's merits.

I am a father of 2 children. And my wife and I are awaiting the birth of our baby in November. My personal choice is obviously pro-life.

I cannot judge anyone elses choice or circumstances, only my own.

I cant believe we allow women to mouth off like this.

200k years of sapien evolution down the shitter in this country.

Some countries still keep their bitches in check.

Sacred to who?

i wuff you too :Kissmy

I am not going to get you pregnant. Stop asking.

just think of the potential human lost each time some one jerks off to internet porn. ditto for each time a female has her period.

:(

LOL! I've already done my part to propigate the genetic codes of myself and a certain man.

My question is, if you really want a vasectomy labret, when will you be scheduling your appointment?

I disagree...

when decision #2 comes into play is when decision 1 was not really a decision at all. It "just happened" is usually the case. If decision #1 was actually "decided", either way.... whether it's yes or no.... there isn't a need for decision #2. The only time decision #2 is a decision is when #1 wasn't. So all decisions cannot default to #1.

#1 and #3 go hand in hand. Essentially the same. Unless you're a surrogate or some other bizarre circumstance. But #2 is all by itself. #3 only becomes a real decision if #2 exists, because at that point, there are options like adoption.

Here's a crude graph to illustrate the discussion:

http://www.opticalamplitude.com/stuff/decisionchart.jpg

But the problem is that with an answer of Yes to Decision #2 solely by the woman, eliminates Decision #3 for the man under our current system. Regardless of whther he wants to raise it or not, he's going to. Either by being there with the child, or by sending a check every month.

So I cannot agree that men should be left out of Decision #2 whther it's *your body* or not. It's still MY life you are affecting with that decision as well. :winkwink:

When Decision #1 is not present, Decision #2 MUST be mutually agreed upon.

not really a decision at all? when does this happen? is my response. If you do grown up things, you should be prepared to accept grown up consequences. REAL SEX is not some entertainment activity and it has very real, very possible consequences, pregnancy being the foremost example. i am suprised that so many men of this day do not protect themselves better. All people lie, especially about sex.

yes, of course.... very lofty ideal there, and it's a good one... I agree wholeheartedly... but I'm talking about the world that I live in here on Earth.... where people fuck constantly and get pregnant every 7 minutes. The one where drunken slobs screw in the backs of Ramblers outside in the bar parking lot and contraception is the last thing on their minds.

C'mon tit.... you know as well as I do that just because people are grown doesn;t automatically mean that they're responsible or even capable of using their brains. :glugglug

stop whining.

okay.... how about highschool kids.... they get pregnant every single day. How many of them CHOSE to conceive or not to conceive? Probably not many. Decision #1 is normally not present in the majority of teen pregnancy cases. Yet if the female is the only influence on Decision #2 (which now comes into play because #1 did not exist), and the answer happens to be yes, then the male is what we like to call, *fucked* for the next 18 years.

Crying? Hardly. When that kid is born, the female is going to go to the ends of the Earth (or rather, the courtroom) shouting "IT TAKES TWO! BE RESPONSIBLE!) and it won't take much.... oh he's going to pay alright.... but back there at decision time, you're saying it doesn't take two.... it only takes one.

and I say you are wrong.

I don't care if it's your body or not. It affects my life as well as yours... and that warrants a voice in the matter.

By the way, today just happens to be my oldest son's 18th birthday.... odd coincidence..... my sentence is finally over. And the court can kiss my tropical tanned ass from here on. http://www.opticalamplitude.com/assets/rockon.gif

and no.... I did not have a voice in Decision #2.

I have never claimed to endorse underage sex. It happens and will probably always happen. Your point is moot because if both parties are underage, then their decisions default to their parents. If one party is of age and the other is not, then the responsibility lies on the adult.

the true grown-up consequences of sex may be something our free loving forefathers neglected to teach us. Yes sex is natural. Sex should not be a source of shame. Just the same, real sex is never simple or casual and women know this very well.

okay. see, i find that sad. whatever his origins, it's not his fault and why would you be finding fault after all those years? yes, women can and do play offspring like pawns and that's wrong. men abandon their children and that's wrong. the one who is not wrong is the child. i would hope you have a better relationship with your son than your comment implies. you can't go back you know.

you're right... wanna know my story? (rhetorical)

Reader's Digest condensed version:
I was 16... girlfriend was 18. She had been on the pill for two years without fail. When you're that young and stupid, you blab shit to everyone. She found out I was planning to break up with her for another girl. Time goes by and our last night together was Homecoming. Standard get-hammered-have-sex-fall-down-and-pass-out kinda party at a friends house afterwards.

Month later she springs the news on me. She's pregnant. And she's going to keep it. Did I mention I was 16? Or that she was 18? Well, if the being pregnant wasn;t bad enough, she then called my new girlfriends house and told her PARENTS as well as her, that she got pregnant on purpose and she was going to have the baby because, and I quote, "It's all I'll have to remember him by." End quote.

Yeah... the court said I needed to be responsible..... I had to pay. And I did. For 18 fucking years I paid.

Now you tell me who got fucked here.

I'm sick and tired of hearing the fucking sob story from women about how men don't live up to their responsibilities. I llived the shit in reverse.

The fucking system is deeply flawed. There is no reason to default judgement against the man simply because he's the fucking man. That's bullshit. Equal fucking rights my ass.... the fucking courts cater 100% to women's asses in child cases. Whether they got screwed and dumped or whether they outright did the fucking shit on purpose.

Well, there's one bitch in the world that's going to hafta find an alternative source of supplemental income to her fucking welfare so she can pay her rent as of today.... this much I know. And the champagne is flowing freely here in the islands tonight baby. :glugglug

Nope.... I don;t hold him responsible for anything.... because it's not his fault. It's hers. Doesn't matter anyway. The kid has listened to 18 years of her lies and bullshit and he hates me to the point he hasn't spoken to me in nearly 4 years.

for what it's worth mr head, in your circumstance, i think the courts were wrong. i hope you play the hand you are dealt well.

it's cool.... karma is a bitch sometimes. :Graucho
she's lived in a shitty one-horse town ever since, gained 200 pounds, has 7 kids and is twice divorced living on welfare and food stamps... and I just got word last week that she's being evicted.... again.

The boy, on the other hand, is extremely intelligent.... finished highschool early.... way ahead of his class.... and rumor is he's already fully planned and scheduled for college far away from that stinkhole. So even though he won;t talk to me.... at least he's on his way to something better in spite of his mother.

Quite often, whether to have an abortion is a decision made by a *couple*. I resent your comment, since I *have* been in such a position, and it was one of the most horrible times of my life. Please Go Fuck Yourself. Thank you.

let me turn that back to the original question of choice. what if you had WANTED that child when you were sixteen and the mother was eighteen mr head? what if the mother didn't want it and did not want to carry it to term? would you want the law to enforce her to have it? this is what choice boils down to.

the same law that would prevent a women's choice to end a pregnancy is the same law that would be cited as precedent to enforce a woman to terminate and/or gestate. once a woman loses control of her body to the government, then what?

fine. i'll take a fuck for the team. good for you, you did what you were supposed to do in the first place and that is be there for the whole shebang. abortion is never a happy thing and i am sorry you had to go through it. but i don't think i need to point out to you that your woman went through extra sorrow/stress because of that surgical procedure.

tricky question.... I am pro choice, however.... we have to look at the sides somewhat differently due to the extreme difference in the outcomes.

One outcome is a new human which must be cared for. A massive responsibility in many ways.

The other outcome is nothing. No responsibility, no financial concerns... nothing. It ends at the clinic.

So.... given the differences, I think the decision should be mutual between the prospective parents, but if an agreement cannot be reached, perhaps the law should take over and default judgement to abort. Certainly the lesser of the two evils in today's world.

An exception to that extreme judgement might be (if in a deadlocked situation) if the partner that wants to keep the child is willing to sign an agreement stating that the other is fully released from responsibilty of the maintenance of the child. If that can be agreed upon, then by all means..... birth as many babies as you want. But I can't agree that just because one half of the prospective parents wants to keep it that the other is automatically forced into providing for a child they do not want, no matter which half is determined to keep the child. Doesn't really matter. By forcing responsibility AFTER protest, you're not creating a parent.... you're merely fining them for their actions as if it were a crime. As I am living proof of.