Libertine

Here are some simple guidelines more programmers in adult should follow. It will prevent drama, might save your reputation and will save money and time for everyone.

1 - Don't try to take programming jobs if you have absolutely no experience finishing full jobs on a deadline. You will fail any job you get if you have no experience with this - it's harder than it seems.
If you've never done any commercial work so far, train yourself by doing some simple open source jobs. Set yourself a deadline, and work towards it. When you've mastered that, try and make a simple commercial piece of software.
Whatever you do, don't take jobs that far exceed things you've done previously. You will fail or flake out - I guarantee it.

2 - Don't inflate your experience. If you do, you'll raise expectations you simply won't be able to meet.

3 - Give realistic timelines. No matter what the client wants, make sure there's enough time for mistakes, slip-ups, testing and rewrites. Otherwise, chances are you'll deliver buggy or insecure software. If the client is in a rush, make it clear how much time everything will cost.

4 - Don't take too many jobs at a time. It's a good policy to only take one at a time. If someone else wants to hire you in the mean time, let them know that you are currently working on a project, and that you will have to finish that first.

5 - Finish every single job you ever get. Flaking out on clients costs them money, and hurts your reputation.

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Jace

or you could do it for the fun of it?

cheapgallerydesign

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Libertine

Bleh. Doing programming work for others is rarely fun.

Fun = creating your own software, and selling that, while being able to continuously improve it.

Jobs = quick money.

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CurrentlySober

No jokes about poo this time:
I totally agree with what you posted. No one likes a flake... And being a flake costs someone else money...
If you can do something. Do it.
If Not: 'Just Say No'...

Everyones happier in the long run.

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borked

100% agree when the term freelance programmer is applied.

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StuartD

While I do agree with you.... professionalism is just plain professionalism... I do have to somewhat play devil's advocate.

Most people have no idea what it's like for designers and coders (programmers) to have to deal with clients, especially in the adult industry.

It's a two way street and many many many times, finishing a project on time often means changes, updates, redoing things, etc once the client actually has something in front of them that they can see... so while you told client #2 that you'd be available tomorrow... client #1 is still being a royal pain the ass today and refusing to pay you what ever remainder of the invoice there is until you do his godly wishes.

Also, finishing a project on time often meets with "You did a great job, and I'd love to pay you but I'm still waiting on money to come in to my epass/paypal... when I get paid, I'll shoot you off the money asap" which leaves the freelancer with clients over lapping once again.

Those are just 2 examples... don't even get me started on clients who just up and disappear or have no clue one about what it is they really want and you suddenly become their consultant, baby sitter and hand holder all the way to their finished project which never does see the light of day anyway.
Ever heard this one?? "Looking for a designer/programmer to partner with me on a project. I can't pay but they can be my 50% partner when it's done!" I'd be a partner in some 500 sites/projects by now if I answered all those. I'd be broke and homeless... but I'd be a partner!

So as much as it sucks that designers and programmers are so flaky in this industry... keep in mind, their clients are just as flaky.

This is why many (at least the better designers/coders) will ask for 100% upfront. It's because of a bad history of crummy clients.

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L0stMind

As someone who has hired several programmers... I can tell you that without a detailed plan/roadmap/flowchart in place before hiring a programmer, you won't get your project done on time. Even with a detailed plan in place, the odds of getting your project done on time are low, end of story.

All projects change and that requires timelines and budgets to be flexible. And when outsourcing the programming, it's even tougher as there is little to no face to face communication. Sadly, most programmers - while they may be brilliant - have extremely poor communication skills. Most people hiring programmers have little technical knowledge and thus the communication fails on both ends...

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k0nr4d

As a coder, often a problem we're faced with is working with designers.

We plan a project 2 months in ahead of a client, who hire a third party designer. I have plans to start on a certain date and need layout by a certain time. The designers flake and everything gets pushed back a month and I end up with several larger projects overlapping each other.

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fuzebox

Back when I consulted, I missed a ton of deadlines. A lot of them were my fault, and a lot of them were from the client not knowing what he actually wanted, or wanting the changes and handholding StuartD posted above.

Also, from experience most people do not pay you enough to be their client exclusively. Overlapping jobs and clients is a survival must. It's not like there's tons of work out there either, sometimes you'll be offered 3-4 jobs at once after a 2-3 week dry period, so you take all those jobs hoping that you can juggle them properly and that after they're all done you'll have enough to take you through the next slump.

Holy fuck I'm glad I don't consult anymore.

gideongallery

you missed one that is very important know how to get an accurate requirements list and NEVER start a project until the person who is hiring you signs off on that list.

Scope creep is the number one project killer that a programmer will ever face

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Deej

I see you are having issues.

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Libertine

Good point. It's amazing how quickly a project that's supposed to be a simple mailform can turn into an integrated support, feedback and FAQ system.

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KimJI

95% of all programmer should NEVER have direct contact with the customer. There need to be a human interface between the coder and the customer that understand what goes on in both peoples minds. Programmers in general don't have a clue about deadlines and what it cost to break them.

But there are the 5% that know what goes on. I have a guy working on a tiny script for me now, and I think he is one of those people

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StuartD

This is very true. But not quite the way you generalized it.

Most programmers have a hard time turning off the "logic behavior" that is required to become a better programmer... they live by it. And therefore certain "social behaviors" suffer, or are lost completely. For example, it can be very difficult (not to mention frustrating) to explain to a general client just how difficult something can be, or how it works internally, or.... well, let's just say that the client may be thinking "just tell me what button to push to make it go" while the programmer is thinking "You NEED to understand the logic" and 9 times out of 10... neither will understand the other and they'll both just be frustrated.
Don't even get me started on this scenario:
customer: but I just want this one little thing changed
programmer: Well, that requires reworking the database, all of the queries and completely changing how each page will interact with that data.
customer: ok.... uhmm.... can you have it for me later today?

This boils down from working on a project together.... to handling sales, invoicing, customer support and more. The two are just not able to communicate with each other.... and sometimes, one or both parties just won't even try.

Make no mistake, 95% of programmers DON'T WANT to talk to the customer.

So yes, you're right.... just in a different sense. If programmers came with "client managers" who could do the translating in between and keep up the communications between both parties, things would go a whole lot smoother.

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StuartD

Oh, and let me add... programmers do know what it costs to break deadlines. And generally (unless they're truly slime) will feel horrible about it.

I often question the many many many clients who pull the "I can't pay you right now, I'm waiting for money to be sent to me, when I get that, I'll pay you asap" crap if THEY realize what it means to the programmer/designer who were depending on that money being there, since they've been working exclusively on that project for what could be months, with no other means of income during that time.

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Due

I had very bad luck with programmers on outsourced jobs, we switched to use only fulltime inhouse programmers or working from home.
Biggest problems I see when using outsourced programmers is that they are not willing to commit fully to their projects, or they simply lie about what they are capable of.
When I start the work on something new with a programmer, I explain them in detail what the system should do, and how it should react, then I ask the programmer to do the system description and flow charts so I can approve it. It will help catching the first errors so programmers did not misunderstand my description, and start working on a completely different system.
Also it will reveal if the programmer is not really capable of the job many times
A good advice for people using outsourced programmers:
1: Make the programmer describe the system, and the functions
2: Add another 25% in development time needed for when it will actually be ready, if programmer say 4 weeks, count on 5 weeks.
3: Create mini goals, when should first beta be ready? How often do you need status reports.
4: Ask programmer to put a list online showing what he is working on, what is done, what contains bugs not yet fixed, best is to put dates on it, good to keep track of the progress. If you see good improvements on daily basis, dont nag the programmer too much, let him work
5: Never pay in full upfront. Pay possible an amount upfront, and then another when a mini goal is achieved, and the rest when code is complete. 25/25/50 or so in %

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sarettah

This is a conversation I just had in q with a friend who has been considering shopping for a programmer. I think it is applicable to the thread (and yes, I have his permission to post it...lol)

Xxxxxxxx (09:05 PM) :
how do i pay a programmer? is it by hour? or by job? or how? and what type of deposits are needed or whts the way you do it?
in other words/ how r programmers paid?

Sarettah (09:07 PM) :

It depends on the deal you work with the programmer. I do some stuff by the hour and some by the job. Big jobs I get at least 1/3 the estimate up front, 1/3 at the end of the design phase and 1/3 when code is done.

Xxxxxxxx (09:10 PM) :
ok so how do i find a programmer that'll take 1/3 up front? once we disscuss what i want and my idea? ................ So the design will be decided with the type of content Im going to provide

Sarettah (09:11 PM) :
Site Design doesn't matter. That is not the programmer's responsibility.

Xxxxxxxx (09:11 PM) :
yes i know
im gonna need one of them too LOL

Sarettah (09:12 PM) :
Ok, bear with me here and I will give you a quickie course in how it should work.
A programmer in the truest sense is a coder, period.

Xxxxxxxx (09:12 PM) :
im listening?

Sarettah (09:13 PM) :
There are several roles to be played here.

1. Web designer - takes care of the look/feel of the site.

2. System/program designer - designs the flow of the logic for the programs necessary to accomplish the functionality of the site.

3. Database designer - designs the structures to hold the necessary information to accomplish the functions/goals of the site.

4. coder - codes the programs designed by number 2 that also put the data in the structures designed by number 3

5. Tester/debugger - tests the code (alpha phase)

6. User group. assists in all phases with input and also does the beta testing

2,3,4 and 5 usually end up on the shoulders of the "programmer" (at least in this biz)

still with me?

Phase 1. Main user (client) tells the system designer what he wants to do. System designer works up a preliminary specification and presents it back to the client, client goes through the specification and identifies/specifies what is missing (if anything) and provides more input. This contiinues until a complete specification is arrived at. At that point, the system designer can provide a very preliminary time line as an estimate of the number of hours and a preliminary price and agreement can be arrived at.

Phase 2 - The design. The system designer takes the specifications and works out a rough logic flow and starts identifying the screens needed. The designer sits down with the user group on a regularly scheduled basis and runs the screen designs past them, this continues until all screens and outputs are agreed upon.

Once all outputs are agreed on the system designer can do a system flow chart and can start deciding what the databases look like.

From the system flow chart, he works out each individual program needed to complete the system flow. Once all the programs are designed then it is time to start coding.

Phase 3 - coding - coder takes the program designs and writes the code necessary to pull them off.

Phase 4 - testing. Alpha testing is just testing the raw code as is and getting rid of any bugs/errors that are found. Once alpha testing is complete, beta testing starts. In beta testing actual users run the software and identify anything that does not work the way it is expected to. The programmer fine tunes the code, the database designer fine tunes the database, etc. This continues until all agree it is ready for release.

Then the first cut is done and it is time to start on version 2 )


Xxxxxxxx (09:27 PM) :
whos is the user gruop?

Sarettah (09:30 PM) :
The beta user group is whoever the client gets together to test the app. Sometimes it is webmasters for example, sometimes it is just opening the site but not charging,. In your case it would probably be a cross section of the xxxxxxxxxx, you would probably want to find xxxxxxxx interested in xxxxxxxxxx and giving them free access to it and collecting their feedback.

The user group during the design phase would be you and whoever you designate to make decisions on the look and feel. The web designer would definitely be part of it because they are doing the actual graphice and so forth.

Now, that, in a nutshell is the proper way to do it.

However, the reality is that we hardly ever get to do it the right way

And that is why I am reluctant to take on stuff in this biz. Most projects in this biz are death march projects from the word go. Like the thing I am working on now.

Xxxxxxxx (09:32 PM) :
ya i see why? cuz that way seems very expensive lol'

Sarettah (09:33 PM) :
You either pay for it by doing it right or you end up paying for it by getting a shitty product and having to constantly fix it.

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gleem

I can't tell you how many programmers have flasked on me, out of the dozens I've used in the last 10 years maybe 3 have ever 100% finished a job.

I hate it.

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Wolfy

VERY nice. You obviously have experience firsthand, and have a realistic view of the process.

tony286

Are there no companies in the us not offshore where you can hire a programmer and they assign a project manager to over see and report?