I dont have healthcare and I want it.

It's one thing to say you think something is a problem. It's quite another to say that it is the responsibility of a government to fix it. There are a lot of problems in the world. What does that have to do with government?

Cigarettes are a problem. They kill people. We are just 'letting people die" from them. Is it the government's responsibility to ban them?

No the government shouldn't ban them but if you've seen the movie Sicko you would know that in the UK the doctors make more money based on the health improvements of their patients . a doctor will make more if he helps you stop smoking.

and the doctors are paid very well not like you would be led to believe ..

What's wrong with communists? The USA was founded by communists.

Actually, yes I have. I paid over $25K of my own money in 2000 because I was under insured. Was I pissed? Yes. At myself.

I paid probably $5K a year for prescriptions for the first two years I had insurance because migraines were an excluded pre-existing condition for 2 years. I sucked it up, paid the $$$, realized I had screwed up by not having continuous coverage and now my migraines are covered.

Did I want the government to come in, take over and fix the problems I had created for myself? No. I tend to want LESS government involvement in my life, not more.


But that's me.

You are fucking nuts.

I laugh at how people in our industry talk out both sides of their mouths. Agree totally.

No matter what, we're paying taxes aren't we?

I'm sure that you guys rather buy your own firetruck and protect your house when it's in need, but your taxes help pay for the service if you can't afford the expenses. If you refuse the help, that's your choice.

What's your solution? If something horrible happens to our family members, and insurance flakes out on us, we should beg for money on GFY? I guess that's what Peaches meant here:

If it's all about YOU, then yeah you're probably fine. But think about your parents, or some relatives who will be forced to work their entire lives so that they can pay for the extremely overpriced prescriptions.

Here ya go
Listen to the tapes Nixon preserved. CLICKY peaches

LOL! I don't know where you live, but in my small town community we have cook outs, craft shows, "donation cans" on counter tops, etc. that's raising money if someone who needs it for medical care. Places of worship also donate money to their members who might need it for an unexpected medical situation.

Some of my savings IS for my future health care. My parents and grandparents did the same.

I've said it before: If you want government health care, then go for it, but let people like me opt out. I don't want to pay for it and I don't want to use it.

If Michael Moore makes a movie about the evils of cigarettes that doesn't mean I will be convinced by watching it that it is the government's responsibility to ban them. Now that would be a great flick, right? You could follow around people whose loved ones are dying of emphysema and cancer. You could show some mind-blowing statistics. You could find someone that contracted lung cancer from second-hand smoke and follow them to their deathbed. You could interview executives at Altria and follow all the money they donate to campaigns. Now you and I know that 400,000 people per year die in the United States from cigarette related illnesses. 1 in every 5 deaths in the US is smoking related. Horribe, right? "Are we just gonna let these people kill themselves?" All these things are true. The statistics are obvious and I don't think there is anyone that would argue that banning cigarettes would save lives. Yet I don't want to ban them - and neither do you - despite the fact that the world would be better off without them. Why? Because there are other principles at work besides maximizing life expectancy and minimizing financial burden.

I don't care what doctors make in the US vs the UK vs the EU. I don't care about doctor's salaries one bit. I am in favor of smaller, less intrusive government.

The best part of that clip is at the very end, where Nixon says "I want every American to have healthcare, when he needs it." And then he blinks 5-6 times in a row, which is a strong indication of deception.

I really don't want to argue with you guys, it's obvious that you feel our system is great. :) I'll continue fighting for the people who don't have the luxuries that you do, and blame myself for having an Autistic son (which most procedures are considered "experimental," so we end up having to pay for a lot out of our pockets.)

My 11 year old sister is autistic. Not everyone with the same family situation comes to the same conclusions about the nature and role of government.

You're right! I'd erase that sentence if I could. Even if I wasn't effected, I still have enough reasons to want more healthcare opportunities for everyone.

What if a decent % of those 400k/yr could be saved through preventative medicine and universal healthcare?

*edit: and cheaper prescriptions.

You're asking me how I feel about taxing me to help care for the illnesses of people who have chosen to smoke cigarettes? I hope you already know the answer to that.

have you seen Sicko?

If not, I'll find a copy for you. I know you'd probably rather die than watch it, but I'd like to hear what you think about it.

Why do you think I'd rather die than watch the film? I've seen all his films so far and went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 on opening day. He makes very entertaining films in very much the same way that Bill O'Reilly's show is entertaining.

I imagine I'll agree with some points, disagree with others. I seriously doubt there will be anything in the film that changes my mind of what the basic role and function of government should be though. There are all kinds of horrible things in the world but that doesn't mean I think government should be responsible for fixing them.

I have Maggie Mahar's book at home but haven't read it yet.

I think you should change your poll questions.

I live in a country with universal health care. Do I think we should get rid of it? No not completely. But Canada bans private health care coverage and delivery for core services and I think that is wrong (the only other countries to do so are N. Korea and Cuba). This has led to long wait lists and sub-standard care in many cases. People with money (including our politicians) go to the US for treatment instead of waiting in line up here. That says a lot.

Sure our health care is "free", but some people can't even get a GP because there aren't enough doctors. Others have died waiting for treatment.

Health care currently consumes up to 50% of provincial budget spending up here, and it is expected to climb even higher as the population ages. In Ontario everyone pays up to a $290 a month health care premium on top of their taxes. Everyone calls our health care "free" but it is anything but free.

You Americans should be careful what you wish for. If you go down the road we are on you can expect much higher taxes, increased wait times for treatment, decreased quality of treatment, doctors leaving fro greener pastures and less money spent on things like infrastructure.

Universal health care for those who can't afford private coverage is fine, but banning private health care for those who can afford it is wrong. :2 cents:

Peaches, no one is saying go exclusively universal. Just have both. Your tax dollars already pay a lot for health care and those dollars could be used much better if a proper universal system was in place.

In addition your rates would go down for private care because these companies would have to fight for your business or risk losing you to the free care.

Everyone wins. You get to stay private and get to choose an HMO that truly wants to keep your business and gets their shit together.

Like being in porn and voting for the most conservative candidate?

i knew sheeple would fall for mike moores propaganda again

here we go

I know the rules on health insurance. They mainly protect those on group health insurance plans (something us self employed folks don't have the luxury of). State plans do exist, but I don't make anywhere near the kind of money you have to make to qualify for it.

So that would leave me the option of getting a 9-5 and working for someone else. If I had a bad disease, their insurance company couldn't reject me, but they could raise the rates of the entire company. Most of the time the company will find a way to let you go instead of dishing out bigger rates for the company due to you. That is if I had insurance prior to starting, if not, they would simply exclude any pre-existing condition I had.

I am 100% for that. The same goes for social security and even education (vouchers more or less). I've never said that I believe in full control of anything, but I do think people need to have options. I don't think any child should be without healthcare, and those with pre-existing conditions beyond their control need to have options.

Again, most if not all STATES already provide very low cost health insurance for children AND have pools for those who are otherwise uninsurable.

Great points. So many Candian doctors have left Canada to work in America because they can make more money here. Canadians foot the bill for that and they foot the bill for not having privatized options. Instead of the money staying in Canada, it goes into the pockets of institutions in America where people are allowed to pay for care.

It's not that there aren't enough Canadian doctors graduating why many Canadians can't find a doctor. It's that Canadian doctors choose not to work in areas where they can't make the big mamoo (small towns etc) and they pack their bags for America.

There must be some compromise. Perhaps having both solutions (private and universal) available is the best way. People who can afford private care are going to pay for it anyway instead of waiting in line.

I don't understand MM does a movie every few years its propaganda.The right spews out bullshit over 2000 hrs a week but MM is the bad guy pathetic.

Was going to say something but why bother. lol

Because his movies gross millions and he wins Oscar awards. When's the last time a movie with a right-wing viewpoint even made it past the cutting room floor?

As a college student studying to become a doctor.. i am against universal healthcare of course.

What the shit is that? You guys really think it is fair for doctors to make as much as teachers? Fuck that

Most Fire Departments are



87% of fire departments are volunteer

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/d...nts/index.shtm

He should give back the money but he just thanks him.
http://www.moorewatch.com/index.php/...cord_straight/

I think healthcare should be a product much like cars. The more money you make - the better healthcare you should have. I know people who whine about not having health care even though they could have bought a good healthcare plan if they canceled their HBO package and cable. But they dont'. So fuck them.

I would also prefer other government programs to be converted to a privatised sector.

Oh, Oreilly and Rush and Hannity and Boortz and Savage make nothing. Your too funny .

Just last week O'Reilly had to beg for donations on his show because he only gets paid $20 million a year :( :( :(

I live in the U.S and I have health insurance. It's not that expensive. As long as I can afford it that's good enough for me. Why should I pay more taxes so we can have health coverage for the less fortunate? It's not my problem.

In this world it's everyone for themselves

I believe in capitalism. The more money you make the more benefits you have. It's not my obligation to help out the less fortunate.

24 hours and everything FOX makes plus even programmes like ER which so caring doctors and nurses looking after everyone, Cop shows where the police are honest, just ect...A brainwashing propaganda picture to delude people to think that their country is the best and that Cuba, Russia China...or whatever country is flavour of the month to be in the axis of evil is hell on earth.

Honesty in all its naked horror...I suppose it not possible to buy compassion. Would the poor, sick and dying please do it somewhere else and not make too much noise.

I'm guessing they don't make that much compared to Moore, Gore, and all of the other Hollywood elitists. Moore is much more widespread (no pun intended) and more well known. He is, and should be, subjected to far more scrutiny.

Besides, you shouldn't make this into a left wing/right wing argument. There are serious issues with the "information" Moore presents and the way he presents it. Anyone from anywhere on the political spectrum should be able to recognize that.

Just ask the two left-wing Canadian film makers who made this film:

http://www.manufacturingdissentmovie.com/

The Simpsons and American Idol have a right-wing viewpoint? I never would have guessed. Besides that 24, ER and other shows are fictional entertainment and as such do not have to be factual or even appear factual. Michael Moore makes documentaries which claim to be factual but are not. There is a big difference.

And are you suggesting that, if given the choice, you would move to Cuba, Russia or China before the US? Good luck with that. :winkwink:

Which is where "charity" comes in. Feel free to donate all you want. I do. But taxes to pay for this is TAKING my money from me AND not letting me choose where it goes. Big difference.

All those who want to opt out of universal healthcare can as soon as those who want to opt out of having their tax dollars spent on the Iraq war can.

Also, those who think that this would lead to some dramatic increase in taxes are fooling themselves. Every single country with universal healthcare, provides it at a far lower cost than the system that already exists in the USA.

You really dont know what your talking about, those right wing pundits are just as elitist. Rush avgs 30 mil a year. Once again right wing media is on 7 days a week at least 10 hrs day,that doesnt include their book deals.They arent known? they stopped the fucking immigration bill.

The USA for the most part is not this loving Christian nation they pretend to be, its everyone for themselves, fuck you.

Maybe thats what it seems like outside of the US. I think pretty much all americans have been to hospitols and doctors. We also live and deal with cops so we know exactly what theyre like, and Russia Cuba and China governments are evil :thumbsup

Agree on the "Christian" stuff Tony - it's utter hypocrisy and often has nothing to do with religion.

There is prob two sides on the rest - those born dreaming of dollar signs tho this is a learned mentality - but, on an individual level there are plenty good people with sense and an awareness of social responsibilty.

About time to quote this once more. :thumbsup

2 things come out in this thread for me ...

1. Many Americans are scared of their government, and the idea of their govt taking over healthcare is a frightening prospect to them. I can understand the fear considering Americans seem to have lost many of their rights and most of their control.

2. Many Americans have really embraced the "me me me" ideology. The mere concept of someone getting something for nothing really grates. If the poor can't afford to have fingers re-attached then too fucking bad .... its a dog eat dog world and they should have gotten off their ass and worked, or worked more.


Maybe the American system is incapable of facilitating universal healthcare. The huge companies that seem to feed off the current system would just find a way to lobby and feed off the new system.

Though, its sad that you guys don't get what i feel should be the first thing a country should offer. If your citizens don't have their health ... not much hope for the country ... rich or poor.

"Truth has a well-known liberal bias."