Industry Discussion: Degrees of Porniness

[FightThisPatent]

I talked about the following on the Politics of Porn panel at Cybernet Expo, wrote it up for my xbiz blog (http://www.xbiz.com/blogs/blog.php?catid=59#23513), and posted here for comments:


As a card carrying member of the Colbert Nation, I came up with the phrase of the "degrees of porniness" to describe the division line in the adult industry on the issue of obscenity.

Max Hardcore is in the news now for his recent indictments on obscenity charges in Northern Florida for shipping two DVD's and for the viewing of eight video clips from his website, deemed as "obscene" by Florida prosecutors.

There are many adult webmasters who look at the extreme content like Max Hardcore and Extreme Associates, and want to distance themselves from it.

They say things like "that kind of porn is bad for the industry", or they try to distinguish what they feel is acceptable porn and what is not, essentially creating their own levels of acceptable content, or "degrees of porniness".

Many believe to throw Max and Rob under the bus, and let the extreme hardcore content to be targeted by the government, in hopes it appeases the obscenity gods for that sacrifice.

If you won't like the extreme content, its OK. It's also OK as a business member to feel that you don't want to associate your business with cases like Max Hardcore, so you shy away from supporting his cause.

Max Hardcore chose his line of business and takes the ultimate responsibility, but, this is an important case, because it is another test of what can be deemed obscene.

It's hard to believe that in this day of 2007, where sodomy laws like Tin exas have finally been repealed, that what someone orders to watch, whether from DVD or from the internet, in the privacy of their own home, can be deemed as obscene.

Anything that is filmed, written, or created has artistic merit. Nature is not artistic merit because it already exists. When we create content, we create art, and the appreciation of art is in the eye of the beholder, but it nonetheless, cannot be the only judge.

If content is displayed in the public, like Janet Jackson's nipple, then it is fair game to apply "community standards", because it involves the public locality. But what goes on in the privacy of one's home, no matter how vile or obscene the viewing of the content, it is that ADULT individual's right to view such content, which is the same right as the content producer to create that content.

If obscenity is allowed to be fully defined by a successful court case, then it does set the precedent, that the creators of a piece of work can be put in jail because a viewer of their material wanted to receive and enjoy the material in a locality that has "obscenity" laws.

The "community standards" clause is quite vague and hypocritical. It in my book, any community that has a strip club or an adult novelty store, has defined that such material is within the communitiy standards.

Cases like Max Hardcore does need to be given support, but the channeling of that support can come through the form of contributions to Free Speech Coalition.

You can object to extreme content, and you may not feel you want to defend such content, but the defense against obscenity does apply to all adult content, and if you feel like an arm's length distance or a 10 foot pole distance is needed, allow the FSC to be that middle ground, where you support FSC, so it can support those that are on the frontlines of the legal fight against the encroachment of the restrictions of the first amendment.

Fight the hypocrisy!

[Stephen]

Thanks for a good and well-reasoned post, Brandon

[TheDoc]

The FSC doesn't need our money, they need to do something better with the money they already have. Rant over.

With Max, I don't care what you produce as long as everyone was very clear on what was going down. If another adult buys it, then our GOV should stay the hell out. But they wont.

So, lines must be drawn or blurred, this isn't a country of pure freedom, and by doing these niches you just plaster a large target on your head.

I hope they win so they push the line back even more, giving all adults more freedoms... But its your own ass if you want to be the one to push it.

[FightThisPatent]

I had read the 10 count indictment, and i recall that 2 counts were on shipping a DVD, and 8 counts for viewing of material via internet.

Companies that ship DVD should be concerned about this obscenity case.

Companies that have video on their tours and members areas should be concerned about this obscenity case.

And the concern should be much more than just reading about it, that if Max doesn't have the best legal backing, he could end up being a sticky precedent.

The whole argument of judging a body of work for "artistic merit" based on community standards is ridiculous. Plain wrapped DVD's purchased by an adult, or content viewed behind a members area by an adult, is not in the public, and no one is being harmed, because the recipient of the content CHOSE to receive the content.

The AG's office that ordered those DVDS and watched those clips, CHOSE to do so,, it didn't just show up at their doorstep.

Fight the witch hunt!

[FightThisPatent]

an icq conversation, posted with permission, name removed:

xxxxx (12:26 PM) :
I really don't care what anyone produces.. If the adults knew it could be fake snuff rape and I really think it's fine... Content isn't my problem..

Just that the Gov, already and has always had a problem.. So if you chose to push it, then its your ass.

I could push my business in many directions, all tot he gray areas. I could blackhat (that is illegal in some states), I could push it in many ways, that I feel, I have the right to push in.. However, the GOV may not think so - making it my fault, my ass for doing business the way I did.


FightThePatent (12:27 PM) :
true, but all forms of porn are the target.. not just the "extreme", because the extreme stuff is small percentage of viewers.. and porn is the fault of many socal problems according to the right

xxxxxxx (12:29 PM) :
20 years ago, yes.. Not in the last 10 - they have only clearly gone after legit complaints. Nobody they have taken to court over content in 10 years didn't push, past the 'normal standard' in some way.

FightThePatent (12:30 PM) :
true.. and i am not a subscriber to the "slippery slope" argument either, but focusing more on the hyprocrisy of judging artistic work by a localities (often hypocritical) values

xxxxxxxx (12:30 PM) :
Some states, have very clear, old, and enforced laws for porn. You could open a medical supply store, if you open in the wrong spot you will get into trouble.

Adult has to do its research too..


FightThePatent (12:30 PM) :
problem is with shipping product, almost impossible to track every zip code.. AND, with internet, almost impossible to restrict by IP..


FightThePatent (12:30 PM) :
those old laws weren't taking into account internet and shipping commerce


Fight the copy/paste!

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

If content is displayed in the public, like Janet Jackson's nipple, then it is fair game to apply "community standards", because it involves the public locality. But what goes on in the privacy of one's home, no matter how vile or obscene the viewing of the content, it is that ADULT individual's right to view such content, which is the same right as the content producer to create that content.

Okay, round two for the day, i guess.

Janet's nipple was an issue ONLY because it appeared on broadcast TV, which is subject to very strict censorship regulations because it is a finite public resource - the FCC has been given pretty much unlimited power to control what happens in that space. They have set the bar high, and that is that.

The same show on HBO wouldn't have gotten a blink out of anyone (except maybe a few comments about her ugly nipple rings.).

That being said, there are limits to everything. We know that things like snuff films are out, example, as is CP (well, most of of us have, but that is another thread, isn't it?). We know where truly out of bounds is. We also are pretty confident where in bounds is as well (sexy girls, guy fucks girl, girl fucks girl, boy fucks boy, group fucks group, etc).

In between those two realities are people like Max, Lizzie Borden, and a few others pushing on the limits. When you push the limits, sometimes the rope snaps.

Max's case will be interesting mostly from the standpoint of the internet stuff. The basis of obscenity in the US is "community standards" - something that has not been defined for the internet as of yet. Further, from a more technical standpoint, who in fact creates that "transport over interstate lines"? Would the material on the website have been shown in Tampa without someone there going to the webserver and having it delivered? Did Max's company commit any overt act to transport the material, or was the transportation done at the bidding and at the order of the person who received it?

What community applies to a server in California that is hosted by a company in Nevada that is owned by two guys living in New York and is a subsidary of a Isle of Man based company (none of this is real, just an example of how dumb this could get)? Why would all these other liberal jurisdictions be held to the most stringent and most conservative choices of Tampa? When you go online, do you remain part of your community, or do you become part of some other community?

The DVDs mailed are likely going to be the big issue, the "slam dunk" part of the deal, and I would expect it to at worst come out 2 count guilty or not guilty (the DVDs) and 8 counts dropped because nobody wants to fight this to the supreme court.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Okay, round two for the day, i guess.

as with so many other issues in adult, you and I are are seeing eye to eye... so this isn't round2.. round1 is in that other thread and even that, we aren't in that much disagreement.

Fight the round and round!

[tony286]

Brandon you might want to do more research,extreme porn mom pop has been busted with obscenity and it didnt change anything.extreme shit makes us all look bad. They go after the extreme shit because they couldnt get a mainstream porn conviction.You have to get a jury reaction and two people just having sex doesnt do it any more.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by tony404

Brandon you might want to do more research,extreme porn mom pop has been busted with obscenity and it didnt change anything.extreme shit makes us all look bad. They go after the extreme shit because they couldnt get a mainstream porn conviction.You have to get a jury reaction and two people just having sex doesnt do it any more.

so you are agreeing that there are "degrees of porniness", that you can let the extreme stuff go, let it be targeted, and create your own dividing line?

i am not a flagging waving type, and i do admit to seeing that some porn is worse than others...... and the more 1st amendment purists would see that its all the same and should all be fought.


Fight the clarification!

[YanksAngel]

I really enjoyed hearing your views regarding this case. Clearly these offensive porn content providers are not making us feel bad that they were called on the carpet because it does make this industry suffer for their greed. However, if they should lose this case on the 8 counts other than the mail, that would indeed mean that censorship has begun and why would we be so naive to think it would stop there.

You are spot on and regardless of whether we would like to take these individuals out back and knock some sense into them, we would be foolish to not want to see this through for the protection and right of free speech and no internet censorship. I'm on my way to sign up with FSC.

Thanks for an intelligent look at the other side of the coin.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by YanksAngel

You are spot on and regardless of whether we would like to take these individuals out back and knock some sense into them, we would be foolish to not want to see this through for the protection and right of free speech and no internet censorship. I'm on my way to sign up with FSC.
.

can you imagine the Orwellian future of having to have a permit to film something, where you have to file a permit to describe exactly what you are going to shoot, how you are going to shoot it, and how it will be used.. oh wait, doesn't that happen already in china?

I have chatted with many a webmasters that feel the same as you, and wouldn't want to help any of those companies out directly, but FSC is the more comfortable way such that you are not directly connected to the extreme cases, FSC is, and your support of FSC does goes towards supporting those extreme cases.


Fight the attack on the inbetweens!

[dcortez]

1) Countries which have trouble with "nudity" have a long way to go in reconciling human reality and their imposed morality. Typically such countries have long histories or trying to change others - at great human cost.

2) Aside from exploitation of minors, "misogyny" should be the root consideration when addressing issues of extreme sexuality. Consenting adults can do and whatever they choose - why not? But, when content is created to play with the perception of consent (forced sexuality), that falls out of the healthy realm of adult sexuality (we have prisons to hold those types).

With that in mind, to my thinking, extreme explicit BDSM which is OVERTLY consensual and between adults is fine to engage in and to watch.

On the other hand, content which actual hints at (and builds on the fantasy of) an ABSENCE of consent is no different than CP.

So rather than focusing on art vs erotica vs porn(iness), the general issue of sexuality as practiced and published seems to make more sense as a desconstruction point.

[=^..^=]

this is something along the lines of a discussion i had earlier this week:

i was watching doctor 90210 and during a breast implant operation - they would blur out the nipples...
yet i could flick to at least 5 or 6 other stations and find topless men... wresting and boxing come instantly to min.
Why don't men have to cover their nipples?
the laws in this country are so fucked up that there are double standards even when it comes to human body parts.

in regards to max - if all adults are consenting and its veiwed in private the its noone elses business - end of story

[tranza]

Cliff notes anyone?

[Deej]

Well written.

I would never throw Rob under the buss. He pays my bus fare

[tony286]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

so you are agreeing that there are "degrees of porniness", that you can let the extreme stuff go, let it be targeted, and create your own dividing line?

i am not a flagging waving type, and i do admit to seeing that some porn is worse than others...... and the more 1st amendment purists would see that its all the same and should all be fought.


Fight the clarification!

Your not the flag waving type that's funny for you this is all academic.No one will be knocking on your door to look at your records. lol

[Freeboyd]

Our most liberal days are behind us.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by tony404

Your not the flag waving type that's funny for you this is all academic.No one will be knocking on your door to look at your records. lol

gotcha, so because i don't shoot porn, have a hand in the lighting, or directing the model what to do, i can't talk about this?

this isn't academic, these are real issues going on that have real implications.
Now those implications don't affect me.. so what.

Webmasters have the choice to be involved in the issues or stick their heads in the sand.

Fight the PSA!

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by dcortez

So rather than focusing on art vs erotica vs porn(iness), the general issue of sexuality as practiced and published seems to make more sense as a desconstruction point.

agreed, but it comes to the same point, WHO or WHOM is going to make that judgement call as to where the line is?

Someone who is into BDSM, might not blink an eye to see a gagged person being whipped on the sidewalk and enjoying it.. whereas a majority would.

so there is some notion of majority rule in defining what is "acceptable".

which then different areas, differnet communities, have different demographics and values, and then we get to degrees of subjectivitity.

so my point is, if you are in the industry of porn, are there really degrees of porniness? can you say that porn is worse than my porn? so treat that porn with different set of values/circumstances than my porn?

those outside the industry, lump all of pornography together in the same lump, with some valuation that some porn is worse than others.

some have brought up that only the extreme stuff gets targeted because the other kinds of porn that is more mainstream, will have a harder time of being prosecuted, so therefore, cases that are to the extreme can be let go, they can get the guilty verdict, and that there is no slippery slope.


Fight the fine line!

[tony286]

After talking to you, I agree with you .

[dcortez]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

agreed, but it comes to the same point, WHO or WHOM is going to make that judgement call as to where the line is?

Someone who is into BDSM, might not blink an eye to see a gagged person being whipped on the sidewalk and enjoying it.. whereas a majority would.

so there is some notion of majority rule in defining what is "acceptable".

which then different areas, differnet communities, have different demographics and values, and then we get to degrees of subjectivitity.

so my point is, if you are in the industry of porn, are there really degrees of porniness? can you say that porn is worse than my porn? so treat that porn with different set of values/circumstances than my porn?

those outside the industry, lump all of pornography together in the same lump, with some valuation that some porn is worse than others.

some have brought up that only the extreme stuff gets targeted because the other kinds of porn that is more mainstream, will have a harder time of being prosecuted, so therefore, cases that are to the extreme can be let go, they can get the guilty verdict, and that there is no slippery slope.


Fight the fine line!

I think the issue of perceived consent can be measured more objectively than not - sure there are different ways of hinting that everyone is just playing, but I believe it is possible to find a common denominator for expressing consent (book ending the content).

If consent and adult participation are properly bundled, then (provided the viewing venue is for adults), any and all should be game.