GatorB

WASHINGTON (AP) ? Replace the federal income tax with a 23 percent national sales tax, GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee says.

Yes let's add another 70 cents to $1 to a gallon of gas. Not to mention everything else.

Pornwolf

Hucka who?

Oh, nevermind. It doesn't matter anyway.

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RawAlex

Actually, the idea isn't terrible, it is 100% user pays, and would eliminate huge amounts of government waste (that small agency called the IRS), replacing it with an agency that would only have to deal with retailers, and not every citizen. It would also lower the costs to operate a business, because you wouldn't have to be tracking payroll and all that stuff.

Short term it would appear to push prices up, but people would also be going home with a bunch more on their paycheck every week, so it would all balance out.

Too much of a shift, so it is unlikely that anyone would do it.

GatorB

Like Clinton, he's a former Arkansas governor.

Jace

edit: nevermind, no political discussions for me while drinking

baddog

I don't think it needs to be 23%, but a flat tax would be a winner

GatorB

You are so off. People will have LESS money to spend. Do the math. This only helps those that are rich. A guy with a wife and 2 kids making $10 an hour already gets ZERO $$$ taken out of his check in federal income taxes if fills in his w-4 form correctly. How does adding 23% to everything he buys give him more money.

The same guy making $50K a year would have to spend less than 11% of his income on items subject to this tax to come out ahead. I'm 100% positive it would be higher than 11%.

If this pased the economy would TANK.

FACT: # of low middle income voters > # of higher income voters. No one is going to vote for more taxes.

fallenmuffin

Didn't know who he was but doesn't seem to matter lol

Jace

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1866.cfm

pocketkangaroo

It's called the "Fair Tax" and it would hurt the lower incomes. I don't think it's a horrible idea though. You say it only helps the rich. But is it fair that someone making under 50k with a wife and kids doesn't pay any taxes, while I pay over 30% of my income to taxes? Just doesn't seem fair to penalize people for making money and forcing a small percent of the population to support the entire country.

pocketkangaroo

I'd be in favor of a flat tax anytime.

Jace

wow, where do you live that people that make under $50k don't pay taxes?

most of the low income friends I have end up paying MORE than the upper class people I know....when my lower class friends end up paying 35-45% every year, the upper class end up paying 15-20% because of crafty accounting

the tax system is totally fucked, and it is not favoring the lower class ONE BIT

Jace

but I do agree here

flat tax would be a totally positive move for sure

Digipimp

im in favor of flat tax. and dont let them bullshit you on how they wouldnt be able to collect enough taxes to run the fucking government. these assholes already waste more than half the money we give them so if they were forced to cut waste they could survive on it easily.

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GatorB

Where did I say they pay no taxes? We're talking about INCOME taxes spefically. And the highest income tax rate is 35% and you have to make over $320K to get into that bracket.

here's some simple math. man wife 2 kids $50K income.

Marrid filing jointly $10,300 dedection.
$3300 for every dependant which includes yourself
4X$3300 is $13,200.
Total deductions $23,500.
Income subject to income tax $26500
Amount of income taxes $2774,
but wait there is also the Child Tax Credit. $1000 per child 2 children=$2000
$2774-$2000 = $774 owed in taxes.

$774 of $50k = 1.5% of income goes to paying federal income taxes.

Same man but only makes $25,000

$0 owed in federal income taxes and recieves $2800 check for earned income credit

Are you saying in each case they be better pay paying 23% sales tax?

Jace

i am drinking and not speaking right, I agree with you, I just can't say shit right....LOL

GatorB

They would never cut spending. We al say we hate pork except when it's our representative bringing those pork $$$ to our community. Show me a representative that says he will stop asking for federal $$$ for his area and I'll show you a guy that won't get re-elected.

I'm in favor of more simplified tax code. Bush claimw to be in favor of this so naturally we went from 5 tax brackets to 6. Yes MORE brackets is simpler Bush. 3 brackets is enough. You are either poor, middle class or rich.

pocketkangaroo

40% of our country pays zero income tax. If you make under 50k and have a wife and kids, you won't pay a lot. Take out the $20k in exemptions off the top, add in cuts for college fees, child credits, earned income credit, 401k, and mortgage interest and in many cases they can be down to no tax liability quickly.
I don't see how they are. We have a progressive tax system and low income friends should be in the lowest tax brackets. I'm sure there are some upper class people who can get their taxable income down with crafty accounting, but there is sometimes only so much you can do. 91% of people making under $30,000 a year pay no tax.

How can you say that? The top 5% pays in over half of all income tax. 40% of the country doesn't pay a dime in taxes. How is that screwing over the lower class?

pocketkangaroo

That's the biggest problem, spending is out of control. Cut spending dramatically and you cut taxes.

SmokeyTheBear

they should eliminate all taxes, everyone who has over $10 million in assets gets it all seized, no loopholes , once you reach 10 mill ytou have to either give it away or have the gov seize it.. 10 mill is enough for any man

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GatorB

Well In the case of SS the lowest workers pay 7.65% of thier income in FICA taxes while a millionaire pay's 3%.Now I do understand teh poorer workers gets more benefits out of SS than a millionaire I'm just stating a fact that it's not always the case the more you make the higher % of your income you pay in a tax. Poorer workers escape income taxes but they can't escape FICA taxes, sales taxes, gas atxes, taxes on utilties etc etc. And they pay a higher % of their income on these taxes than the rich.

GatorB

As I said YOUR local representative comes to your town adsn says for the sake of the countries he willno longer ask for any federal $$$ for any projects in your town. Do you vote for him. Do you think other people in your town will vote for him? Pork is wastefull except when it's YOURS then you can find an excuse why it's not. It's not Congresses fault they spend so much it OUR fault.

DTK

Can I have a hit of whatever you're smoking tonight?

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Boobzooka

But this would encourage conservation and reduce debt growth, and that's A Really Bad Thing under our current economic system. (if you'd prefer to postpone its collapse)

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pocketkangaroo

Agreed on that. I would like to see all spending made public information with easy to use searching. I've heard about them doing it for awhile, but it never seems to happen. It would be nice to look through and let people pick apart bullshit spending.

Jace

well, if we are speaking actual $$$, then yeah, of course the rich pay the most...LOL

but if we are talking percentages then no way, the lower class always end up paying a higher overall percentage

shit, before I had enough money to pay an accountant I was paying 34% of my income to the IRS every year...INSANE...while I had friends that made well over $500k a year and would end up paying 21-22% because they had ways and means to make it happen

pocketkangaroo

How though? It's a progressive tax system. Unless you're making over 150k, you should never have been paying 34%. And if you make 500k a year, you're already stuck paying 20% of that upfront before even calculating in a percent.

Here is the tax table:

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...133517,00.html

How could you be paying that much?

I'll also add that your friends were still paying in $100k with your numbers, which is a lot of money.

DTK

Sorry, that was my smartass response. Seriously, that idea (while well-intentioned) is naive and thoroughly unrealistic.

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tony286

This is the guy who doesnt believe in evolution

DTK

As if he ever had a chance at getting elected.....

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GatorB

There is NO way you were paying 34% of your income in INCOME TAXES. You have a shitty accountant. You do realize we are making a dsinction between INCOME taxes and FICA taxes, sales taxes etc etc. I'm talking about one specific tax.

Jace

I am telling you what I paid in total to the IRS every year, I was making no distinction between any types of taxes

yeah, I had a shitty accountant back then, the same accountant majority of people making under $50k a year have, THEMSELVES

not everyone can afford an accountant man, I didn't have one until 2 years ago and I am 32

Jace

you all really seem to think that the majority of the lower class people in the USA all have accountants and know about every single deduction they are allowed to have....fact is, most people get a tax form, fill it out, and hope they get money back

a lot of my relatives are poor kentucky folks and i don't think they know about half these deductions and tax games....they get a pay check, tear off the stub, fill out a form at the end of the year and get some money back....

GatorB

I'm 38 and I've never used one. Taxes don't involve algebra or trigonometry. It involves addition, subtraction multiplication and divison. All things I learned before the 4th grade.

And I'm telling you that if you sent 34% of your income to the IRS then you really suck at doing taxes.

Jace

you are right, I did suck...cause I didn't care....and I look back now, just like everyone in my shoes, and kick myself...but I learned ONLY because I got an accountant, a luxury that majority of america doesn't have....

yes, you are awesome, we get it....

but do you not get that majority of america is not like you?
the majority of america does not think for themselves
the majority of america doesn't think they can cut corners or get any sort of deductions on taxes

GatorB

It doesn't take an accountant to do taxes if you are poor since you qualify for so few deduction anyways. Hell I aint rich by any means and I've sure as hell been poor before. So don't tell me I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

Well if you fill your w-4 form out right, that's the one you fill out when you start a job, you should owe zero taxes and get back zero. I find it funny when I hear peole brag out how much thier refund check is. I think "Yeah get back money you didnt need to pay anyways and the government gives it back to you with ZERO interest". Get a governemnt loan. They'll want interest. When they "borrow" it from you you get NONE.

How are are taxes if you are low income? It tells you right on the fucking form Married you get this much dedcution, Single this much, Head of household this much. You can't tell which you are? This past year you got $3300 per dependant. Know how I know? It's on the form! Now if it's you your wife and 2 kids, DUH that's FOUR dependants.

GatorB

Yes I am awesome because I paid attention in 3rd grade.

Any poor person that think a 23% sale atxes make it better for them than the current sytem deserves to get a 23% sales tax.

Sure most people aren't like me. Sorry I seem upset and sorry you appearantly accept mediocrity out of our peole.

DTK

A national sales tax in lieu of an income tax utterly fucks the poor and does a good job of fucking the middle class too. It just won't happen. As a libertarian, I'm all for dramatically lower taxes, but the national sales tax just isn't the answer.

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jigg

my bf's brother is that typical man,wife and a kid and they hardly pay any taxes, and they got a nice fat refund this April. Already spent it ... boggles the mind!

we on the other hand are fucked paying for someone's brat to go to school and other gov't waste

bring on the sales tax
the way we spend we'll probably pay $1000 a year in sales tax :D

and while they're at it time to get rid of FICA this social security and medicare shit should be optional I could do a lot with an extra $6000 plus we already pay property tax that funds the local hospitals

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RawAlex

The number "23%" is just a number.

Yes, flat taxes do put pressure on the poor, but it gets back to the old trickle down theory - if the rich don't have to pay so much in taxes, they will have money to invest and put into actually doing things, which should raise employment and therefore over time improve the lives of the poor.

See Ronald Reagan, trickle down economy (aka Voodoo Economics).

The change would be shocking, which is why it would never happen, but the ends results would likely be quite good.

GatorB

You are retarded. You only spend $4000 a year?

Mr. Blue

Well, depending on how the flat tax was implemented it might not be that harsh on poor people and they wouldn't have to count on trickle down economics. Fairtax.org has this idea of a flat tax that offers a rebate to poor people on essential items, etc (even though I could see that system plagued with corruption), there's still options to implement a flat tax that wouldn't neglected poor people and the essentials they need to survive.

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GatorB

It has to be close. He wouldn't say 23% if it only needed to be 15%. They've done enough studies on this already and the number is in fact 23% what is need to eliminate the income tax.

We know that's crap. How come we still have poor people. If I won $100 mil int eh lottery I'm not giving some poor fuck a job. There goes that theory.

GatorB

Listen we already have a rebate system it's called Earned Income Credit. And then you still need an IRS and to have people make sure people get their rebates and to check for people scamming the system. How is this simplfying things?

The whole idea that someone gives the government $1000 over the coruse of a year then the governement gives it all back to them is retarded. Why not just not have them pay it in the first place? How many tax $$$ are going into creating jobs for people to recieve the $1000 and then to send it back to the taxpayer?

Mr. Blue

You can get a better feel for what Fairtax.org suggests by reading over the site, I cut to the chase and gave a short thumbnail sketch of the rebate system. A flat tax, even with the addition of a rebate system, would be less of a mess then our current structure.

Now, you can jump on Huckabee for even presenting this idea, but even if it isn't the right idea for America at this moment...it at least stimulates discussion on the topic of tax reform.

Even if the idea of a flat tax sucks, let the other candidates come up with something better instead of doing what politicians do nowadays, they say, "We're for tax reform" and they never state their policy or plans.

Huckabee stood a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything, so I like candidates that have no chance throwing topics into the debate and let the frontrunners be forced to deal with the issues, forced to come up with platforms, etc, etc.

Haven't we elected enough people that just say shit to get elected with no plan of action? I think we have.

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GatorB

Do you understand that the FLAT Tax and Federal Sales Tax are two completely different ideas?

I'm not sure a national sales tax is allowed under the Constitution.

pocketkangaroo

I just don't see how you were paying 34%. Even if you didn't take out a single deduction and just went into the tax table to see what you are paying, it's nowhere near 34%. The tax table doesn't even get to that level until you've made over $150k. If you were paying 34%, you were messing up simple addition on the forms. You could easily go back and re-file those years and get HUGE returns.

I'm just failing to get what you're complaining about. At first, it was that low income pays higher taxes than the rich (although the lowest 40% of the country doesn't pay a dime). Now it's that a basic 1040 or 1040-EZ is filled with games and can't be figured out by a normal person. I don't know if you've looked at the basic tax forms, but they're fairly easy to do if you read the instructions. You can even call the IRS directly with questions.

pocketkangaroo

I'll add that I'm not someone who is against a progressive tax system. I just hate seeing people saying that our system is built for the rich and fucks the poor.

If you look at the numbers, the system is fantastic for low income households. Only a few percent of incomes under $30,000 pay any taxes at all. 40% of the country in fact won't pay a dime. The top 5% pay over half. 60% of the population uses more funds than they pay in, which means 40% of the country is supporting the other 60%.

I just don't see what else you want. Do you want 50% of the country not to pay taxes? Do you want rich people to pay 50% of their income to taxes? I just don't see what lower income people could possibly complain about.

Mr. Blue

I mistyped when I was writing that response as I was commenting on RawAlex's post, it was a bit late and I had gone passed the 3 minute warning to edit my post, lol, but the remainder of what I wrote still stands. Regarding Huckabee or any other candidate that actually presents their plans and introduces new ideas...like them, dislike them, at least they're putting forward their platforms instead of talking points.

Now I'd like to see what the other candidates have to say on this issue.

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