Is there anyone here who is really trying to say that adult and mainstream work the same?

Holy fuck I wish I could charge the adult guys what mainstream people charge for hosting. I'd be sitting in a wheelchair with rims made of gold and diamond studs.

Well, I don't do adult design (thank god), so my thoughts and OPINIONS come from mainstream thinking. Aparently, hearing other people's OPINIONS gets the panties in a bunch for 1 or 2 people who get red in the face and resort to name calling if someone doesn't think the same as them.

Read Harvey's post ... he makes the point pretty well. & maybe you won't dismiss his opinion because of a predisposed negative view.

Adult clients want a week's worth of work for the price of a carton of milk and expect to then be able to take the designers work and pass it onto other designers to work from. I will not give a client a psd if I have any idea that they might take it to an outsource firm, not because I want to charge them for updates but because why should another designer get the path to how I came up with a design & then sell it onto their other clients?

Yeah there's the creative ego side of it, but there's also a need to protect our concepts to a certain extent or we'd be doing our service for free.

I agree with you about needing the psd if you are someone who can make promo tools, updates etc without going back & paying high rates for it each time which is why I provide psd's if asked, but do you understand Harvey's point about the legal ownership of fonts used? This is why some designers rasterize text ... its not necessarily a case of a crap designer as it is a case of you not owning the license to use that font outside of the design provided.

Well, you're speaking from a totally different perspective of what this particular market is expecting.

What kind of response would Charlton Heston get speaking at a Michael Moore rally?

I figured this would be the right place to insert this so... If I do any work for anybody, and you want the PSDs, Fonts, Etc. No problem, just communicate that with me and you got it!!! From my point of view, you pay for it, so if you want it, just let me know. :)

Checking aico off my list of designers to use.

I have yet to see a font worth $200 on any one of your portfolios. :2 cents:


Agreed.

I'm not that challenging, but there are a few things that really get under my skin when dealing with a designer. This of course is one of them.

9 out of 10 times a fuck up would come from them flattening text so I can't change anything, or flattening layers so I'm stuck with what they did and can't separate something if a change is ever needed.

Maybe some clients are OK with taking exactly what is given to them, but by doing that they are trusting that the designer knows their business better than they do, and that's just shouldn't be the case. I prefer to be able to change the designs as I see fit. For one, it allows me to sign off on a design and allows the designer to move on. Second, we should all be able to make changes to text to the designs.

BTW... would like to add this project was a non-adult site for a shoe company.

Well then I do take back my original statement, because quite honestly when it comes to adult I don't really want to deal with it once I've sent it through & i've done all of my job right! A dream client is one who is happy to take it further.

I've seen many designers work in this style, and I agree its sloppy & also quite unnecessary with current versions of photoshop & text effects. But we aren't all sloppy useless idiots who can't get it right the first time :winkwink:

Agree 100%. I dont use designers that wont give me the psd and fonts along with the design. I dont care if the font costs 1000$. Use another font then. I just want the stuff to edit myself. Because I KNOW for sure that all of the designers wont be her in a year or two. I have already made that mistake.

you guys don't seem to want to wrap your heads around the fact that the market is setting the prices and terms... just as it happens with any other product or service. if you don't like the terms.. or client expectations... then you're in the wrong biz. don't blame us that a great paysite costs 750.00 - 1000.00 now and not the 5,000 it cost in 98.

I'd certainly give PSDs to a tour upon request. Conditions change and the ability to alter a tour only seems fair. Highly doubt I'd give it for a gallery job however (though I'd make that clear in advance). Too likely one job would be converted into exponential pseudo-versions of the same work. I've seen plenty of content providers terms that stipulate heavily restricted usage. Don't see why designs should be too different, aside from it being virtually impossible to enforce after turning over PSD files.

There's really no relation between adult and mainstream though. I merely follow adult via this board (borderline useful, but always entertaining), chiming in now and then but mostly watching as adult is generally a step ahead of the rest of the internet (though far less so nowadays). The difference between the two is staggering though.

It's the galleries that most amaze me... a piece of promotional material likely to see far upwards of 500K pageviews in it's lifespan - in a saturated, ungodly competitive market no less - and programs are spending $25 to have a piece of shit 30-minute job done. I'd log $150-$300 worth of billable time before I even clicked the Photoshop icon for something of that nature, hence my complete and utter failure in the adult realm. Or perhaps the failure is due to lack of skill. Don't know, don't care I guess.

There's really very little talent displayed in adult design, mostly it's curvy shapes with gradiated background coupled with a faded pixel-pattern on top, with useless text that'll never be read coating 75% of open space. It's not the fault of the adult design community though. What I've yet to figure out is if the god awful promo stems from naivete on the part of the programs themselves, or rather the program's need to convince a naive affiliate community that the bloated tour is a "sick ass" design that's sure to sell, despite the fact said design is the 2000th resurrection of the same, tired look.

I don't know if you're talking about Aico's portfolio, but anyway, just so you know, that's the ongoing price for professional fonts. Check http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/Detai...ra&SCOPE=Fonts for Futura family as an example.

as for the war between aico and DWB and PleasurePays, count me out, LOL :thumbsup

just one thing: I think you're comparing apples with oranges I don't think any professional will work other way than a professional way, maybe you've had some bad experience with some designer, but I bet is not any of the top guys. For once, I take pride of being there for my clients, and most of the times they don't need to do any changes, I do the changes for them for free if it's not something really important or for little money if it takes more work. So, even when you'll get the psd from me, you won't even need them. I mean, instead of generalize maybe you'd compare crap with crap :winkwink:

aico, you need a lawyer man, because ANY company that contracted you to do work could sue your pants off for even displaying THEIR work in YOUR portfolio

there are TONS of cases in the legal system already showing the fact that the company that hires you owns the works and you need permission to display their work in your portfolio

you guys crack me up. so far, you guys have basically had to resort to calling every webmaster retarded and adults most talented designers incompetent and talentless.

I am not taking any new clients, and haven't for the past 3 years, so you can check me off any list you'd like. :2 cents:

My portfolios? How exactly would you have seen any of them when they are printed material or on the side of a building somewhere? Want to see my portfolio take a walk thru Disney's California Adventure, you'll see a lot of my work.

What the fuck are you talking about? Cuz I have no clue what you are referring to. But regardless, my contract with any work I've done clearly states I have permission to use it. But, I am not really sure what you are referring to.

6. ACCREDITATION/PROMOTIONS
All displays or publications of the Deliverables shall bear accreditation and/or copyright notice in Designer?s name in the form, size and location as incorporated by Designer in the Deliverables, or as otherwise directed by Designer. Designer retains the right to reproduce, publish and
display the Deliverables in Designer?s portfolios and websites, and in galleries, design periodicals and other media or exhibits for the purposes of recognition of creative excellence or professional advancement, and to be credited with authorship of the Deliverables in connection with such uses. Either party, subject to the other?s reasonable approval, may describe its role in relation to the Project and, if applicable, the services
provided to the other party on its website and in other promotional materials, and, if not expressly objected to, include a link to the other party?s website.

um....direct quote from this thread

Oh, well I don't do work for hire, so you are right, but it doesn't apply to me.

LOL

Whatever.

If you have that attitude, you're gonna get a lot of shit.

ALL PSD and Fonts are included when a design is created by us. Any designer that doesn't supply that stuff is an ass... and the client wont come back ...

This discussion i found it pretty stupid, seems that people forgot about something that is called TALK... legally if you dont sign a contract that says you own the psds is the designer who owns them... But the most easy is TALK before you get a agreement. Just TALKwith the designer about what u need, and what he is going to provide you. And if you are interested the you found your designer if not look for another.

About fonts, well if you allow the designer to use commercial fonts, then if u want the fonts you have to pay for them. So the end price of the design should be work done + fonts + (other resources used like stock photo if needed)... But again TALK with your designer before any work and you will be more happy

Like I said, I don't give my fonts away, it's actually illegal for a person to use the fonts (the ones I use not the freebie internet ones) without paying for them. Fonts I use have copyrights just like anything else, using them illegally can result in a serious copyright infringement lawsuit. If I design something, and I use a House Industries Font for example, and they see what I designed somewhere, and come to me and ask where the license is for the use of that font, and I don't have it, my ass is grass.

So call me an ass if you must, but I call it smart & professional business practice. Like I said, I don't do adult design, I don't take on more clients than I can handle, most of my clients have me on a retainer anyway so I don't need new clients. If I can't take a new client, I refer them to another designer and take a referral fee. It's a pretty common practice.

I understand the fonts thing .... and for major mainstream clients, I do not use standard fonts in many instances, so yes, I agree ...

but not giving PSDs ? Sorry ... that's ludicrous. Even in mainstream. You're basically saying that they can't have the documents they pay for ... they're not buying a template ... they're buying custom work.

I think it's unethical for a designer to take money and only hand over the final images.

Jeez, even in the games industry, the code and original source materials are all handed over to the publisher when working on a custom project. For instance, FIFA for EA. I worked on that and all my art went to EA, in PSD format.

Regardless of why you think this is the case, you're gonna piss a lot of hard working designers off ....

:2 cents:

They're paying for a design nothing more. This isn't the Game industry. Not sure why people keep comparing apples and oranges. Why don't you join AIGA and then you can find out exactly what is considered ethical and unethical.

Here I'll do it for you:

Rights/Ownership
All tangible materials in all circumstances remain the property of the Designer. All rights and ownership apply to preliminary concepts, works in progress, and finished material, whether the project is completed or canceled. The Client will be entitled to limited and specific usage rights of such materials only for the purpose of reproduction, after which all materials will be returned, unaltered, to the Designer within thirty days of use.

Upon payment of all fees and expenses, the Designer will grant all reproduction and/or usage rights, as outlined in the attached estimate/proposal, for all approved final materials created by the Designer for this project.

If the Client wishes to make any additional use of the materials, the Client agrees to seek permission from the Designer and make such payments as are approved by the parties at that time. Where alterations or retakes are necessary, the Designer will be given the opportunity to make such changes at an agreed additional charge.

Electronic Files
If the Client has requirements for how the project is to be prepared electronically, the Client must communicate this to the Designer before the project begins. Electronic files and software documents related to the Client’s project are the property of the Designer and must not be copied, altered, or modified without the written permission of the Designer.

The AIGA Standard Terms and Conditions for Designer/Client Relationships

What's with the example of a plumber leaving his tools? Is the client asking for a copy of photoshop? or any other "tool". No, they are asking for their product that you got paid for to create. And you say since it's not the "end product" they are not getting it. I think it says more about your bizz ethics then anything. But if it works for you then great.

:2cents

Quoted for truth

you guys are fucking morons. people are paying for whatever they agreed to pay for beforehand. you are arguing against a business model and common practice that has existed for 10 years now in adult.

to defend yourselves, you stoop to attacking peoples morals, ethics and calling all the top designers in adult talentless as if this whole issue is all something new. the reality is that its nothing new at all and the simple fact is that turning over the PSD's means less potential money for you that you can continue to milk a customer for.

what the fuck do you need psd's for www.donkeyfuckedteens.com for? in case it becomes a prime time tv show on FOX?

holy shit. whats wrong with you jackasses? all you have to do is say "personally, i prefer to do business in this manner..." then spell it out... and be professional... instead you fucking idiots attack everyone and everything because you are threatened by how things ARE and HAVE BEEN and in doing so, alienate yourselves from any potential customers.

I agree 100% also.

:eek7 please tell me where or when did I say that, I missed that part. Or maybe I'm on a bad case of schizophrenia :winkwink:

The only person attacking people over and over in this entire thread is you :2 cents:

I did this to myself, unfortunately. I made a snazzy little logo, then wanted to change something. Unfortunately I didn't back up my fonts last time I formatted and the font was mislabeled because I can't find it anywhere online. Sigh.

I think that's up to the designer, but imho the client should know what he gets when he orders it. I think it's a bit fucked if a designer makes a design for the client and then when the client asks for the PSD he will either not get it or be charged more for it.

I am a designer myself and I have also hired many other designers for projects and I noticed most professionals tend to keep the PSD for theirselves. Never had any real problems getting it though :2 cents:

Congrats on 6000k Beeyach!

Everything I do, say, agree to, confirm, is in writing, always. My clients know exactly what they are getting and not getting before I even start. Any changes are in writing, any additional costs are approved in writing. My clients know what is expected from them and when I need it, in writing. I've been doing graphic design for 16 years, except for the first couple years when I was new and stupid and didn't put stuff in writing, I have never had any issues or any clients who told me they didn't get what they expected.

Well, I'm sorry ... I'll tell you what ... here's how I see it.

Why the fuck would the designer EVER wanna keep the PSD files to themselves? Why?

They wouldn't ...

So if you don't give the PSD's by default, you're simply not as nice as me :)

Fact.

Because at the end of the day, there's NO reason not to give full PSD files :)

That's got fuck all to do with professionalism.

PLUS... aico ... you say this aint the games industry ... yet you're arguing this whole thing ... and you even say yourself, this aint mainstream and you don't do adult. So why are you in here comparing the two industries?

:) You're doing the same thing you told me not to do ...

As I say ... if you're nice, you'll give PSD's ... because you have no reason not to ... if you're a selfish cunt, you'll hold on to them.

Choose :)

Because maybe the Designer is actually a business person, and does design as a business to make money, and not to make friends or bros.

Say I do an adult design, a banner for $25 say. Boom banner is done, took me maybe 30 minutes. Send them the banner, they like it. "Hey, can you make us the same banner that says "blah blah blah" and maybe put this new girl on it?" Sure, I'll do that, for $10, no problem. That's why you don't give them the PSD file, it's called doing business. Doesn't matter if it's Adult or Mainstream, good business sense is good business sense.

Nah ... sorry man ... I make plenty of money ... I'm a pro at my job ... but I don't like screwing people ... jeez, you think someone would add the girls and think it was as good as yours? generally even when my clients have the PSD's ... they will still come to me to edit ;) I'm good enough :)

Sorry, but your business model simply falls short if you're good enough ... designers are hired for skill generally ... well, I like to think so ... my clients don't usually fuck around changing shit ... Unless it's tiny ... and I don't do tiny work :) $10 edits mean fuck all to me and I'd not waste my time on it :P Small changes are usually something I'll do for free as a service of support to my clients.

I see where you're going ... I just think you're looking at it the wrong way.

Btw ... even my mainstream clients get, and will continue to get fully layered and editable PSD files. I'm not gonna screw them over.

You don't belong to AIGA do you? Maybe you should join and spend some time learning the standards of our industry. You're actually what is considered bad for the design industry and lack of professionalism. But, do what you need to do to make a buck, to each their own.

Screwing someone over would be me saying they can have the files, then not giving them to them. I am not on retainers for my screwing over of clients.