I agree with a lot in your post. But this is the part I can't. I don't think it will ever be stabilized.

It's the Middle East. And it might not be PC to say it, it's a fucked up part of the world with a lot of fucked up people. Our presence is not going to stop the Shia and Sunnis from hating each other. It won't stop them from killing each other. Simply put, that part of the world simply does not want peace and has proven it for centuries. I don't think it matters when we leave, they'll kill each other still. I'd rather them do that then kill us.

I have always said that since the begining of recorded history that part of the world has known nothing but blood and violence and it shows no signs of ever changing.

Oil, money and everything else aside we are dealing with religious radicals and you can't rationalize with people like that.

EXACTLY. MCCain says you can't imagine how worse thing can get if we leave. Sure I can. I know it's going to go to shit. it is goingto anyways. Us staying there delays the enevitable and olny prolongs the process it will take Iraq to finally come out of this.

See Bush and his ilk have to fantasy that if we just stay there long enough and spend enough money and send enough troops things will get better. NO THEY WON'T. If we leave things go to shit even worse. If we stay things will get even worse. So why stay and get guys killed and mangled if the outcome is the same?

Bush says we can't leave because we'll embolden the ememy. We'll he does have plan to leave SOMEDAY doesn't he? So even he agrees that SOMEDAY the troops will leave. What is going to stop all the insurgents then?
What happens if after that the insurgents take over? Are we going to re-invade?

I don't believe Bush has any plans to leave. It's been said for a long time that the US has way too many vested interests in the Middle East and the best way to see that they stay protected is by military intervention. You don't get much better than by occupying a country in the thick of it. This goes double for Bush though, and I don't think I need to explain why.

Rosie: "Do you trust Bush as much now as you did when he was elected?"

Blonde: "I think in a time or war, you have to trust your president no matter what."
---------------------------------

Now you tell me which one is using the "ignorance is bliss" approach? In a time of war, you just your brain off, question nothing and just trust explicitly without giving it any consideration?

She doesn't WANT to question anything. She wants to just be told how to think by her war time president.

Heaven forbid someone question the things they're told. Free thinkers.... they're "insane"!

So if Bush had his way in 2027 we'd still be there?

Kuwait as a nation state is primarily a creation of Britain, whom Kuwait only declared independence from in 1961. European colonialists have historically used clever partitioning of countries when pulling out, whether in Africa, in Southeast Asia, or the Middle East to keep their access to prized resources, or to ensure political divisions that benefitted the Europeans even after they ceded political control.

To summarize the Iraq invasion of Kuwait (which I believe was dealt with better than the current US invasion of Iraq), Kuwait was a huge financeer of the Iraqi's in their war with Iran. Following the end of that war (which ended in a stalemate), Kuwait demanded that Iraq repay them, even though Iraq was still in shambles economically and unable to do so.

The situation deteriorated further when Iraq claimed that Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq (from disputed area to begin with) and pulling out Iraqi oil.

When Iraq flew some trial balloons up about an Iraq invasion of Kuwait, it has been suggested that the U.S. (under the first President Bush) sent mixed signals to Iraq, precipitating their attack.

True, while the Saudi leaders feared Saddam, and were undoubtedly happy to see him toppled, I very much doubt that they would prefer a Shiite regime in control of Iraq, that allies itself with Iran, although that appears to be what is transpiring.

Short of the U.S attacking Iran and attempting to overthrow their government too, and thereby risking a world war, it would appear that Iraq will devolve into all out civil war, and that a Shiite run government allied with Iran will emerge.

The U.S. course in the Middle East has been a treacherous one at best for many decades. It will likely remain so.

I like to believe that there can be some long-term diplomatic solutions to the problems plaguing that region.

To do so will require that the Republicans and Democrats come to some consensus as to what is practical and achievable, and at what price. The Bush style was never about consensus, which is why it cannot succeed.

Hopefully, the next President (since I doubt anything will be resolved until a new Administration is installed), will be wiser, and will share such a view, whichever party prevails, otherwise we will remain a nation divided.

We are badly served, when either side winning an election, ignores the other side. It is a shaky foundation to wage war from.

As for the "War on Terror", read the entire Wikipedia article you cited, expecially the "criticism" about the War on Terror section.

The war on terror is just more political rhetoric used for it's propaganda appeal by cynical and manipulative politicians, and is not a formal Declaration of War, which carries a far different meaning.

It's been fun playing, but I need some sleep...

ADG Webmaster

Funny thing is I bet she did't have that view when Clinton was president. Nor do I think she would have that view if Gore or Kerry were the president right now. Nor do I think she'll have that view if a democrat gets elected president in 2008.

I love people with situational ethics and morals.

Iraq was a creation of Britain after WWI. which is why things are fucked up today there. Face it, when whitey gets involved we fuck it up good.

I don't like how quickly they were able to pin it on Al-Qaeda. Conservatives will have us believe we were blind sided on 9/11. How is it then that we knew exactly who was behind the attacks like the next day? The terrorists supposedly assumed false identities here in the US, yet we knew their real names that quickly.

And you seriously think the US didn't start anything? It's funny seeing the bully play the victim. Actually, its pathetic but I said funny because that was nicer. :1orglaugh

Here's the funny thing. I used to be from Sarasota and so I read the online version of the local paper. I read at least 3 articles that paper had written on Atta in the year before 9-11 accusing him of having ties with Al queda. he was living in Venice florida at the time which is in southern Sarasota county. Yet the governemt claims to not know WTF was going on. That's why I was even more shocked than usual on 9-11 when they showed Atta's name and pic on TV. I'm like "Thats's the guy in the articles!!!"

Also ironic that on 9-11 Bush was in Sarasota visiting an elementary school.

So we have the President of the US the day of the 9-11 attacks visiting a place 20 miles from( and in the same county )where the head guy in the 9-11 attacks was living and planning the attacks.

Not just Bush, it's the entire line of people who support the concept. And there are dozens of them who will eventually vie for control of the nation, and thus, control of the situation. So I say yes, we'll still be there, and a great number of others also say yes. Whether or not it will happen is anyone's guess, but if things continue the way they are right now, you can count on an extended US occupancy of not only Iraq but eventually other Middle Eastern countries.:helpme

Whatta nonsense.If country is in war that doesnt mean you can do anything you want to win it.

Well said :thumbsup

I fail to see how Rosie comes across as insane in that interview. If anything the blonde seems seriously ditsy and borderline retarded.

hate to say it but I agree with Rosie on this one, and I am not a Rosie fan at all! She has a point. I feel like blondy just doesn't have a clue! She would have sent more troops to Iraq? What the hell would that have done?

She must have read that in Mein Kampf. It's exactly what the people of Germany believed during WWII. Look where it got them.

I finally saw the Rosie clip from The View. There was nothing particularly outrageous about it, and in fact she made several good points. Rosie certainly did not come across as insane. I'm not a big fan of free-for-all arguing about important issues, common on many TV shows these days, in which people feel they have to shout or talk over others to make a point.

Then I read the transcript of the O'Reilly show attacking Rosie. Now I see where you get much of the tone for your comments from, Splum. Vintage hysterical O'Reilly, in which only people that are of a like opinion with him, can have a valid argument.

I am not surprised that O'Reilly's style of populist ranting is popular with some. If you close your mind and disengage your brain, it's easy to get a bunker mentality and get swept up in self-righteous fervor.

The popular ratings style of TV debate, where people take provacative polemic positions, and then proceed to shout at each other and call each other names is not conducive to building understanding or for problem solving, whether it comes from the right or left.

I prefer more rational discourse, and thoughtful consideration of various viewpoints to arrive at my understanding of events, and I do try to keep an open mind.

Well, off to a photo shoot - talk (or shout/argue/call names) amongst yourselves...

ADG Webmaster

I don't think he wants to stay there, he just doesn't know how to leave. His actions now seem to show that he is planning to basically stay the course and let the next administration handle it. It is the only thing he can now do that won't risk political disaster for his party.

If he tries to pull us out of there and chaos erupts people will blame him and the republicans for getting us into the mess and never finishing the job correctly and it will give a huge advantage to the democrats in the 2008 election.

By staying there if a republican wins the white house in 2008 they have another 4 years to figure it out and if they fail so be it. If a democrat wins and they pull out immediately and chaos erupts the republicans can say, "see, I told you so."

It's the safe thing for him to do. He has created a mess he can't clean up so he's sweeping it under the rug.

I saw the view segment yesterday live and I my comment was "Rosie is gonna make the national news again" because of the comments about building 7. I knew people would call her nuts, lol. but she did make some decent points to Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is a die-hard bushie, although she'd deny it because it's not popular to be a die-hard bushie these days. She regurgitates the party line on a VERY regular basis. Try it yourself. Check the political controversial news and make a mental note of the republican response. Then watch the view the next day and wait for her comments.

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh... I am sooo tired of listening to people talk...

Hey, that is NOT the american way! Americans should never think about the consequences of decades of sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. The american way is never to ask WHY something happened and what can they do to avoid it happening again. The american way is to keep on keeping on, just be as oblivious as always and be shocked when something happens again in the future...LOL

Remember folks, Rosie and blondie are on a talk show on television. Their job is to get more eyeballs to watch their little show. The more eyeballs they get the more thier network can charge in advertising. So, the "views" on the view will be exaggerated and I'm sure the producers are loving every minute of Rosie and blondie because they hear the cash register going "cha ching-cha ching".

Bush is not a complete moron, he's a puppet, but not a complete moron. He did manage to get the "war on terror" to be fought somewhere other then North America, which was brilliant and probably saved millions of american lives. As a terrorist if you want to fight with americans now, you just go to the mid east and start shooting. It's a lot cheaper then a flight across the ocean... :)

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/...sh_popcorn.jpg

ADG Webmaster

LOL...this coming from the KING of degrading people. Here is what you go on to say in THIS THREAD alone:

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

No, Bush and crew have no intention of leaving... and even if the dems take control, you watch.. they won't leave either.. Permanent bases have been built there and they won't be given up anytime soon.

http://newamericancentury.org/

That's the think tank that was formed before Bush took power and you'll recognise many of the people involved with it. Read the document Rebuilding Americas Defenses and you'll begin to understand the entire plan... Part of it is to form a significant ground force in the middle east so they can shift carrier groups to asia.

and just look at the size of that head!

i was on rosie's side with her babbling until this last 9/11 statement, she's gone off her rocker now.

Man is that one ugly woman. She had no choice but to be a dike.

Someone needs a padded room

I think it's pretty funny how some people label democrats or liberals as "poor people". Especially when the more wealthy areas in the US with the highest property values are the ones that seem to vote for the democratic party time after time, while the right wing christian trailer park areas vote republican.

:2 cents:

And here I was thinking I was the only one who noticed that...

what do you mean "INSANE"? Rossie is 100% right! It's a shame that America doesn't have more voices like hers.

really tho this thread is useless without a nude pic of rosie :2 cents:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-...osiestage2.jpg

How would you know anything about Americans than what you see on TV? Historically most people who vote for Democrats are POOR, certainly there are some rich people but most of those people live in the major city bubbles and are sheltered from the reality of normal life. You dont know what you are talking about, just that you see a few hollywood celebrities vote Democratic. The average Democrat makes less than the average Republican.

Reality of normal life: politics, politicians, and every motherfucker that steps up to the mic these days is full of horseshit waiting for a bag of manure to jump into.

Please provide a link to a source to back this up.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Forgot:

Christians for Porn....

Splum is .... forget it!