wyldworx

these two stories I found disturbing....
http://au.news.yahoo.com/061221/2/11utm.html

about a bushfire burning on the same day as this!

http://au.news.yahoo.com/061215/2/11sd8.html

a flood possibly postponing the start of school, in the same fucking country, same fucking day. So much extreme shit going on, it is unbelievable to say the least. Nothing to fear, but interesting all the same. Has really made a few changes in my life lately, I am really not sure what the solution is, as my belief is if we go extremely to far the other way, it could have the same effect...
I have studied some wicked things this country does but never have I seen anything as crazy as this!

KingK7

Yeah, the weather is definitely fucked up this year. It's freezing cold here in the south of Spain.

Danny B

here in Holland it's supposed to freeze 10 degrees celcius, but instead it's a comfortable 10 degrees celcius plus.

Since I live near the sea I'm planning on building an ark. Shouldn't take long for my village to look like atlantis...

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crazyforyou

Also in Finland is not cold anymore
we did not have snow till now

LadyMischief

Why people attribute this crap to global warming I have NO idea. One major volcanic eruption spews more "pollutants" into the atmosphere in ONE eruption than the entire human race has put into the atmosphere since the beginning of the industrial age. So, being that we are fleas on the backs of a dog, and taking unneccessary credit for NORMAL TERRESTIAL WEATHER PROCESSES, where does that leave us? Global warming is not something we HELP, but it's definitely NOT something we've caused. Remember, we are in an interglacial period, the last ice age ended not even 12,000 years ago... (more like 10,400). Here's some science (GASP HEAVAN FORBID REAL SCIENCE AND NOT DOGMA) to help you to understand how it works:

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVF.../ice_ages.html

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LadyMischief

Known causes of global climate change, like cyclical eccentricities in Earth's rotation and orbit, as well as variations in the sun's energy output, are the primary causes of climate cycles measured over the last half million years. However, secondary greenhouse effects stemming from changes in the ability of a warming atmosphere to support greater concentrations of gases like water vapor and carbon dioxide also appear to play a significant role. As demonstrated in the data above, of all Earth's greenhouse gases, water vapor is by far the dominant player.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Good research there supported by some good numbers.

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E$_manager

And in St.Petersburg it is the same.

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King Adam

Are you a scientist? What the hell does "cyclical eccentricities" mean. I didn't know webmasters had that kind of vocabulary

I think everything has a part in the earths changing. Regardless of what the true main cause is, there is something fishy going on. It started a couple years ago. Massive tornado outbreaks, hurricane season that was huge, tsunami's, higher temp average and more.

Where I am, it was 12 degrees last night and this morning its 40. Thats pretty strange. Also, 25 years ago, there used to be 3 feet of snow on the ground in the winter. I always remember playing in the deep snow with my brother. I haven't seen that in years. Things are warming up for sure.

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stickyfingerz

Shh let them have their little scare mongering. There will be a new one 4 or 5 years from now. Thank God I saved all this aquanet hairspray from the early 80's phew.... hehe Nice meeting you for a few minutes at your party btw.

stickyfingerz

Tornadoes and hurricanes have been much worse in the past, and tsunamis are caused by earthquakes and have nothing to do with weather paterns. Its also been much hotter in the past etc.

Dirty Dane

We can all blame Bush for it.

L-Pink

So can I start using spray-on deodorant again or what?

LadyMischief

There are a lot of factors involved... take the time to do the research yourself. The earth's position in the Precessional Cycle, the strength of the earth's magnetic fields, the sunspot levels, tectonic plate activity... Like I say, do the research..things ARE warming up, that's not a matter of question. Blaming that process on humanity is silly. Yes, we play a contributory role in the situation depreciating more quickly.. but that's about IT.

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LadyMischief

I should also point out, that 25 years is an EYEBLINK of time on the scale of global weather patterns.. To get anything CLOSE to accurate as far as gauging cyclical weather, you need to go back MILLENIUM to have an accurate snapshot of trends and what the patterns/cycles are or could be.

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psili

I'll finally concede that perhaps recent climate change is cyclical or it's caused by man. I really don't know.

But can anyone tell me that curbing man-made pollution is a bad thing?

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LadyMischief

It was great meeting you too! Gonna have to make more time to visit in the future ;)

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LadyMischief

Absolutely not in the least.. man's pollution and influence have done a lot of harm to the environment, creating marine deadzones, the destruction of millions of plant and animal species (half of which we never even knew existed before they were wiped out), all different kinds of things. Everything should be done to put these things to an end, for the better of the entire world. But to try to blame humanity for something like "global warming" is very much fear mongering, and mostly posturing for political purposes.

I like to call a spade a spade.

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Splum

Hey children listen to LadyMischief and stickyfingerz they know wtf they are talking about

djroof

Damn... this is serious!!!

L-Pink

I've purchased 1,500 acres in Yuma, Arizona hoping that someday it will be waterfront property.

Klen

You gotta be kidding me

King Adam

Good point. I guess all in all it comes down to what we should do as humans. All the polutants, gases and misc other factors are still things that are bad for mother earth. They may play a role in global warming ... whether its a big role or a small role, its still bad and no good for our planet.

We have so much energy around us in solar, wind, magnetic and more, I just don't understand the need for gas. Once again, its all about money and not about whats right.

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stickyfingerz

Well I dont know about me..... hehe. LM does though. I just have a good memory of all the scare mongering they have done over the years. None of which proved to be the truth.

stickyfingerz

Yes pollution is bad. Here is the part I dont get. Pollution was way way way worse from 1900 till the mid to late 80's. Its MUCH MUCH better now than its been in over 100 years. Thats what I dont get. Why would it suddenly effect us now when things are much better?

4Man

Well tht is one big problem.Weather is realy strange this year,,,

Webby

Now, now, now, now Sticky - less of that modesty!

Everyone from the World Data Center for Paleoclimatology, world leaders, the International Geosphere Biosphere Programme to the directors of the majority of the planet's monitoring centers know you are an expert on global warming. Some of the latter are actually considering abandoning their research facilities and scrambling to meet you, having heard of your specialist talents in this area.

In fact, I'm surprised you have time to post of GFY while you are in Switzerland attending the World Economic Forum in Davos delivering your paper. How's the skiing by the way?

BTW.. For the press release, can you confirm your age? 34 was it? And you were inititally educated where? I've left plenty space for your academic achievements - degrees and doctorates and also for your international awards. Just post a list when you have an hour or so to write this up.



PS This thread really needs to be placed into the realms of scientific archives to allow other follow researchers/scientists to benefit from these findings. Awesome stuff - the ability to browse the net, editing out content which displeases us and then using Ctl-C and Ctl-P can make us all masters of the universe, eh?

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LadyMischief

All too true and I agree 100%. The sad truth is that unless the system changes dramatically, or there's some kind of cataclysm in the meantime, you can't change the nature of humanity, which is, overall, self-preserving and often greedy. I do always hope for the best, and maybe someday people will wake up. I just don't bank on it lol.

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LadyMischief

I have to admit my reasons for understanding the cycles of weather really make me out to be a huge geek.... I undertook a bunch of research on weather patterns and historical climatology to support some archaelogical research I was doing at the time... And as anyone can imagine weather plays a huge factor in how different societies develop, grow, prosper, or disappear, and on coastlines and the submergance of different archaeological sites.

Yep, geek haha.

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psili

Do you have any links / articles handy where deforestation, soil erosion, ocean species depletion, etc. have drastically subsided? Granted, I'm sure there's some things that are better managed in certain places, but I'd be willing to guess the majority of all that "save the world hippy shit" still applies today -- just isn't in the media like is was back in the 80s. Doesn't mean it's not happening, though.

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stickyfingerz

Yes you are right. We'll talk again in 5 years and see if we are all robbing stores in order to steal air conditioners so we can all keep from dying. Webby I know you are old enough to have been around for all the other world wide epidemic catastrophes. Is it just long term memory loss or... Arent we all supposed to be dead from some new plague by now? Or an Ice age, or hurricanes were supposed to radically destroy most of the south east this last summer? Ozone hole was growing super fast and we all would be wearning special spaceman suits in order to not get cancer. The soil was going to erode and we wouldnt be able to grow any food. Forests were all going to be so depleted that we would have no oxygen in the air. Gloom and doom, gloom and doom BOOOO!! BOOOO! BOOOO! Scary stuff yo.

Fizzgig

Some people just don't get it. A global catastrophe is very possible and sooner or later there will be one, whether it's in one year or 12,457 years.

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stickyfingerz

Sure some still occurs, the point is when the media slapped us around with all that stuff every single time it was going to be the doom of humanity. We've seen obviously none of that was true. The underlying issue is that people only get research grants if there is a pressing issue. They hype it up and continue to get paid. Most research scientists only get paid by grants.

Splum

And some people dont get this... there is absolutely JACK SHIT you can do about a global catastrophe happening in the next 12,547 years lol.

stickyfingerz

My future self came back and told me it will be ok. I just have to stay off of the weed.

psili

I dunno man. Case in point, I keep hearing about certain lakes in Colorado where I'm now at, that it's advised to limit the fish you eat from those lakes due to raised mercury levels. Years ago, I remember some SF Gate articles when I was growing up near San Francisco that mentioned one probably should limit your fish intake from the bay to at most once a month, due to the shit dumped in there. From my point of view, I see little trend toward a "cleaner" planet. Granted, I'm not seeing the doom and gloom some of those media buys in the past predicted, but I do see a lot of steady erosion of available resources happening too.

*shrug* Just my point of view, though, and again, posed by the media.

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stickyfingerz

That was some of the funniest pre election propaganda eva! lol

I prefer http://www.crichton-official.com/fear/

Webby

Excuse the interuption psili - in answer to your first question, no. Sure there are regional aspects, but overall the tendency is an increase in deforestation and decline in species.

Some regions have arrested the denuding of terrain, but it's clear that once one area gets under control, another part of the planet starts to rip up forests. This is being monitored by some international orgs with access to satellite facilities. For example, they can pinpoint the area surrounding a small village somewhere in China and see the evidence of deforestation around that area - and maintain data of the overall. Had access to some of this a while back, - least up to a level (need security clearance otherwise) - this research/monitoring is being financed big-time by a number of governments who are also dumping funding for sustainable projects into a endangered regions globally.

Marine life (hell, this is too long for GFY ) and land species are also under pressure (read threat). Can point to one area which was very rich in coral 40 years ago. Now, the coral is dead in that short time. Despite that, National Geo declared it the "most intense biodiverse place on the planet". Considering it is not the Amazon basis, but just north of Panama - that says a lot about what was the "world's greenhouse" in the center of South America.

Sustainability/climate and ecological change is a long and complex story - with each interacting with the other. But... good news, there is a lot more awareness now than in the past and even governments are paying attention and many are allocating very substantial budgets to aid and preserve targetted regions of the world which are considered to be under pressure. At the same time there are starts of change on different levels... eg in architectural design when used for the construction of homes, with the object of making homes more self-sustainable and with lower emission levels etc.

Doubt doubt the damage already done will never be replaced - the cost is more than anyone could comprehend. The first stage of arresting the damage has started, but far too slow in happening. "Civilization" always was a problem - looks like that is here to stay until the last gulp for air while trying to get a tank of gas - a human trait

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psili

Damn.
Thanks for the wicked reply.

I just wanted to branch this thread toward that if one, tiny piece of an ecosystem collapses it could desimate the rest.

Thus the reason I don't understand why people are against yet another push for global change in regard to how we interact with our environment.

I don't even give a shit if it's under false pretenses.

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stickyfingerz

Interesting on that page I linked to above read about "Eugenics research"

Webby

Not surprised you mentioned that psilli - North America generally is one of *the* areas which are being severely damaged.

Got some pics taken in Texas years ago - in a large valley which was like a national park and rich in ecology/species. That whole valley (and it's a big area!) is now totally devasted. There are no leaves on the trees - they are all dying and little wildlife left.

Apparently the main source of the problem was emissions from oil refineries in that area and where the local conditions mean't that these emmissons ended up as a cloud of pollution over the valley. Sad stuff...

Sure mercury is a problem, but not alone in the cocktails fish are fed. Analysis of water from a large number of rivers (a US survey) showed common traces of chemicals - mercury, the residues of chemicals used in Viagra, birth control pills and (dammit - forget the brand name) - anti-depressants. So... we got the fish high on Viagra, but taking their birth control pills and some anti-depressants to keep em happy

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psili

That's funny. A digression from climate change, yet this thread seems to be going that way anyway.

-------------

I was just going to try and edit my post above about how I think not only should we stop polluting the planet with chemicals, but also people.

I'm not talking eugenics here, or anything as insidious as that. Just some normalized trend over population centers to limit their ability to procreate based on the carrying capacity of their ecosystem and those systems around them.

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eroswebmaster

Exactly...my dad who is a recovering Republican used to complain about the "save the whales" bumper stickers back in the 80's...I finally looked at him and said..."what the fuck is so wrong with saving whales?"

I honestly don't get it. The republicans I hang with now days say similar shit about global warming...their answers usually are..."who cares I won't be around to see it all happen."

But what about their children, and their grand-children?

Selfish way of thinking...and honestly I'm not even a democrat...LOL I'm more Libertarian than anything...however I do have a few liberal leanings in some instances.

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stickyfingerz

Listen I dont think there is ANYTHING wrong with conservation. NOTHING. Its the gloom and doomers that piss me off. Do all we can to help keep the planet clean and for things to not needlessly die. We'll see in time this was another silly scare mongering money grab. Its the intentions of people that push it I have the problem with.

Webby

I'm no expert in this area psili, but got friends here who are and it's very interesting learning from them.

On the "tiny piece" aspect, one biologist who works specifically with people engaged in reforestations has the job of "implanting" species into the new forests to make the whole ecology of that area work. He has ranges of insects, toads, snails, reptiles etc (all indiginous species) and these are "planted" as part of the rainforest "re-creation program". Apparently when there is an element missing from the stucture - like an insect etc - this breaks the forest life down and it stands less chance of being self-sustainable.

Another friend specializes in "slithery critters" - he's kinda like a real Crocodile Dundee and prob handled most of the world's reptiles :-) There was a small frog - very small creature half an inch in size. This was assumed to have become extinct a few years back and was a major factor in the future of several rainforests. Alex eventually found a very small pocket of these frogs and managed to preserve them and with others, is spreading them into new forest territories to encourage/restore the ecology back to it's previous state.

It appears that very small things have this trickling effect over much bigger and obvious elements ;-)


PS It is interesting what these folks do and can be fun as well :-) Got a demonstration of a snake attack a couple of years back - had to firmly hold a large perspex sheet between the snake and my face. The snake was very interested in "performing" and eventually attacked. Could not believe the power of that "punch" against the perspex - if it was glass, chances are the snake would have broken the glass. It was more like a strong human punch - and inclined to have great respect for snakes now *lol*

Then there was the injured jaguar one kept in his kitchen while it got back to health *lol*... But that's another story...

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psili

It's sometimes just fun to know in other threads I'd like to post the exact opposite of what you posted, yet in others there's a general agreement.

Anyway.
Back to work, I guess.

Cheers.

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Webby

Those are the exact words of several world leaders or members of their governments eroswebmaster ;-)

Got a few people we are privileged to have working with us on other projects here - they are qualified beyond belief and have worked with many governments in areas of sustainability, ecosystems, resource usage etc. Two in particualar, and on different occasions, have described presentations to leaders and govt ministers.

The reactions, depending, were, ackowlegement of problem areas and that "something should be done" etc... but, often the final comment - implied or actually stated - was that "I won't be in power when it crumbles so why should I bother?" Amazing when you think that is the limit of concern for the nation they supposed to represent

But.. there is a lot more active interest these days and a lot of funding being allocated - literally many billions - and not just for their own countries, but being allocated to sustainable eco development in other regions which are under pressure and kinda relevant to the overall planet.

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Webby

Hehe.. ya might be surprise how much we have in common psili - don't rely on GFY bullshit as the measure

Cheers man!

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GhazAllOva

It's the end of the world... nooooooooooooooooooooo...oooooooooooooo...o

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