Sarah_Jayne

and has become a major incident and is leaking oil and its cargo starts to wash ashore..is it ethical to go to the beach and start to take the stuff that is washing ashore when you know full well why it is there and it all belongs to somebody else. Especially when the contents includes high end things like motorcyles. Are you a thief?

SweetT

It depends....are you Black? White? Mexican? Puerto Rican? European? I guess it just depends.


(OK, for those of you that do not get my joke....in her post title she called it an ETHNICAL DEBATE....not an ETHICAL DEBATE, so I was just poking fun at her...that is all. Its a joke people, relax)


--T

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JD

yes. the second that ship started sinking everything on it was declared a loss.

Sarah_Jayne

lol...that is a really bad typo that I wish I could correct ...I would blame it on my broken finger but it is just a fuck up

Sarah_Jayne

even if an insurance company write something off why does that mean you can take it?

Scotty.T

Well according to the news I saw at lunch time, you can take it but you must report it to the 'recorder of wrecks' or something. It is an offence if you don't, punishable with a £2500 fine.

Did you see the guy driving away with a brand new BMW bike on the back of a pick-up? LOL

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BitAudioVideo

what do you think the chances of a motorcycle washing up on the beach after a cargo ship sinks are?

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JD

because it's just going to go to either a) wrecking yard/dump b) insurance dudes garage/home

BitAudioVideo

hrmm, looks like the odds are good...

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ADL Colin

I'd say it is unethical. I mean, if I were walking down the beach near my home at 6am and saw a motorcycle sitting there and no one else around I would not take it. If it were cash, I'd grab it though ;-)

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joshll

im camping there waiting for things to wash up ;)

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Scotty.T

Quite good really. According to stuff I just read, there were 50 of them taken off the beach on Sunday night.

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Peaches

Is there a place to turn it in if you find it? If so, then no, you shouldn't keep it. But if there's nothing else to do but take it or keep it rusting on the beach or have it wash back into the ocean, then yeah, I'd take it.

Peaches

I saw that - I couldn't WAIT to see what kind of ethnic debate Sarah was proposing I think she needs to come up with one for those of us who got our hopes up

Sarah_Jayne

according the woman from the gov't was just on all those items - even if written off by insurance companies - and all have legal owners. So, if you take it you are obliged by law to tell the authorities you took it or you are stealing.

And so what if it was damaged...you didn't buy it..it doesn't belong to you...not to mention the crappiness of benefiting from something bad that is happening. There are people down there taking wet diapers just to take them - and we wonder what is wrong with society.

Sarah_Jayne

it is happening at the moment off the coast of England

Sarah_Jayne

the coast guard as right there...and everybody down there knows what is going on..a guy on the radio just now says he took a huge container of cat food and quote 'I don't even have a cat but somebody on Ebay does'. Theif.

Peaches

OK, so let's say you find a piece of something that sunk 50 years ago - is THAT OK to take? What are the time rules?

IMO, if there's not somewhere to take it (and in reality, whomever was running the ship or the authorities should be down there picking it up anyway), then do you just walk by it and let it pollute the beach/ocean?

I was moving once and had a bunch of stuff on the curb waiting for trash pickup. One of my neighbors saw something she could use. She took it w/o asking. Was she stealing?

Peaches

Why isn't the coast guard picking the stuff up or at least guarding it? If the cat food washes up 10 years from now, do the same ethical rules apply?

(just playing devil's advocate - I'm such a wuss I probably wouldn't even pick up a $100 bill on the floor)

Sarah_Jayne

please don't ..the other big fuss in the UK this week is all about ethnic bias issues and a reality tv show..fun!

JD

finders keepers losers weepers wtf does it matter if someone takes anything anyway?

Sarah_Jayne

they are apparently putting 'coast guard aware' stickers on things ..which to anyone in the UK is funny because when there is a abandoned car it usually get a 'police aware' sticker on it and then it sits there for a month.


as far as your other line..I guess I see it as if people were looting a burning store rather than walking onto a lot that has been abandoned for years ..I still wouldn't take anything in any case but in the first situation it feels like you are directly profiting from the immediate hurt of another person/group.

stev0

Its leaking oil and fucking up my beach? Fuck em... take it all

crockett

FINDERS, KEEPERS ?

The law of salvage and the law of finds are the two principal aspects of admiralty law that provide legal guidance for how the issue of shipwreck ownership is approached. When property, such as a vessel and its cargo, is lost at sea, salvage law generally applies. Under the law of salvage, salvors take possession of, but not title to, the distressed vessel and/or its cargo. Subsequent to the salvage of a vessel or cargo, a court awards the salvors a reward depending on various factors, such as the value of the salvaged property, the risk involved, and the overall success of the salvage effort.

Historically, salvage was promoted as a means to rescue imperiled property in order to return it to the lawful owner and the stream of commerce. Recently, emphasis has also been placed on the elimination of navigational hazards and reduction of potential environmental impacts such as pollution and habitat degradation. As the law of salvage is intended to encourage rescue, when a ship is in distress and has been deserted by its crew, anyone can attempt salvage without the prior consent of the ship's owner.

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Sarah_Jayne

words used by thieves...until somebody takes their things


Personally, I live my life by the lines of what my mother would punish me for doing. If I think about something and I can imagine my mother reaching down the phone and verbally ripping my throat out (though she probably wouldn't but just flashes from childhood perceptions) I don't do it. I guess those are called morals she installed.

Sarah_Jayne

yeah because it happened on purpose

StarkReality

If it's trash, if it's obvious that noone will be missing it and that it doesn't have a real sale value, I think it would be ok to take it.

The fact that you have to think if it's ethical or not is always a pretty good hint that it's unethical.

So, using common sense, taking the motorcycle out of a container (which is normally sealed, you probably even have to break the lock) is unethical theft, if it's a totally broken motorcycle that will end up in trash anyway it's ok to take...in my opinion.

stev0

I wouldn't consider it stealing unless you take it from a person or their property, consider it free beach cleaning

Not that I would want anything in 'washed ashore' condition anyways, but the company that fucked up should be held responsible for the environmental, health, and cleanup aspects.

If you leave a camera or something at the beach for hours and it goes missing, someone didn't "steal it", you LOST it.

stev0

Purpose or not, it happened and someone is responsible.

I'm sure it wasn't a thunderbolt from the sky, likely unmaintained parts or human error.

borked

Nah, those guys are helping the cleanup operation. Good on em.

And those Pampers are only wet on the outside - plastic is watertight...


I laughed because people were rooting in boxes pulling out seatbelt clips and then ignoring them because they were simple seatbelt clips. Then a guy sat there and claimed it all - the Beeb interviewed him asking him what he would do with thousands of seatbelt clips to which he replied "sell them on eBay as they're BMW and they'll fetch 2-300 quid a pair"

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Sarah_Jayne

so because that 'person' is off shore dealing with a sinking ship they don't exist? Everybody down there knows what is happening because they heard it on the news..so they know a person/company is connected to it

stev0

That's true... so just to be fair, give them 24 hours to grab their crap. If it's still sitting on my beach 24 hours later and I don't want it, start charging them storage fee's.

Peaches

Ewww - that would stop me from ever having any kind of possible sex

stev0

CNN Poll

Shoreline scavengers


26%

275 votes
The vessel's insurers


26%

271 votes
The original owners


44%

469 votes
The state


4%

41 votes

I voted for the insurers

stev0

Phil21

Er, as someone else has stated...

There are specific salvage rules already on the books for this. They ARE NOT AT ALL what you would expect, I can almost guarantee that by the tone you're taking here.

There are also good reasons they exist as they are. Yes, it does hurt the original owners sometimes, but overall they are a great tool.

Lets say you have a nice 60 foot yacht.. You're an idiot, and somehow run it aground on some sand bar somewhere, thus posing a navigational hazard for other vessels. If you abandon your ship, I can come right in tow it away, and keep it pending an admirality(sp?) court ruling on what a "reasonable" salvage fee is, etc. From my understanding, in many of these cases the actual vessel is simply written off by the insurance company and the salvor usually simply keeps it.

The same also applies to cargo. The laws are on the books to promote salvage of materials/vessels that would otherwise pose navigational hazards and/or simply be abandonded.

So yeah, you could like simply take your abandoned container full of BMW motorcycles, report them as salvaged to whatever governing body it is that has jurisdiction, and very well likely they would simply become yours. Salvage laws are "working" in this respect - a huge amount of crap on the beach is no longer waiting a few weeks/months for an insurer to get off their asses and pay for the cleanup.

Of course, you're getting into one of the most complex and specialized law areas of all time, so what I said could be absolutely false However, I think the underlying idea is conveyed.

So yeah, in modern times the laws can certainly be used to "screw" original property owners. However, those risks are extremely well known by any company that operates vessels on the high seas, and it's simple economics at work in most cases. I bet it's cheaper for them to simply write off that cargo and not worry about all the details.

But to answer your question.. No, I wouldn't feel quite right taking that property off the beach. Even knowing that in all likelyhood it will NEVER be returned to the original owners and simply thrown in a dump somewhere. I'm torn on it for that reason - it simply seems wasteful to not "rescue" the items.

For a fun and interesting time, try to find a lawyer who is familiar and deals with admirality/salvage law. They always have some real interesting stories to tell. One of the few areas of international relations that are intriguing to me.

-Phil

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crockett

As I posted above it comes down to salvage laws. It's encouraged to salvage the stuff so it's not lost. The people whom salvage it do not own it but are entitled to a salvage reward.

So no legally they can't just take it and sell it on e-bay unless the court awards them title to it. So yes if they take it and sell it or don't report that they have salvaged it. Then it is stealing because there is clear known ownership.

If it was of unknown owner ship then it comes down to finders keepers assuming there are no local laws. For example in the US, any shipwrecks within 3 miles of the cost is claimed ownership by the US govt. However that owner ship is then granted to each state. So depends on what state it's in as to how the law covers it. So just depends on how they treat it over there but overall basic admiralty law covers this.

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JD

I've been robbed, mugged, had my car broken into, the whole 9 fucking yards. That's just life.

Stealing something by breaking into someones home/business/vehicle or forcefully taking things from them are TOTALLY fucking different than a ship wrecking and taking shit that washed up on shore.

Oh and if I interpret your statement up there correctly, you're calling me a thief and if that's the case.... fuck you.

Sarah_Jayne

my mom doesn't know what sex is.....hey, it works for me

Sarah_Jayne

according to the law enforcement people on the news in the UK anyone 'salvaging' something from the beach is suppose to fill in a form so that it can be collected if claimed...you think anybody is doing that?

Sarah_Jayne

Firstly, I am just debating and not aiming anything at one particular person..all 'you's' are general.

So, somebody is walking down the street and accidentally drops their purse. If you come up behind them and take that purse before then can pick it up are you salvaging and not stealing?

Webby

Agree... there are leeches everywhere who will steal stuff just for the sake of stealing it.

Can't remember the laws on salvage in the UK, but suspect the govt spokewoman gave a clue.

If it was a matter of cargo being destroyed unless it was removed from the area, there may be a point in grabbing as much as possible and securing it - but doubt that is the case here. Keeping it is another matter - it's the property of others.

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crockett

Well of course most probably aren't going to do it, but then they are stealing. But under salvage law they aren't breaking the law by just taking the stuff from the beach.

The law was originally put in place to encourage people to salvage so the stuff isn't lost and also to help clean up the cargo. However if they don't file a claim on it, then they are breaking the law and stealing.

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SleazyDream

is anybody looking?

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tony286

who wants water logged shit ?

crockett

I wouldn't mind some water logged gold.. but that's just me.

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Webby

Hehe... I remember a consignment of "packages" which were thrown overboard by a small vessel travelling up the Pacific coast from Colombia and where an armed helecopter intercepted the boat. The "packages" contained talcum powder or something...

The packages drifted towards the shore, but the case officer was asked why so little was recovered - "The tide was going out" Yeah... Apparently the tide always goes out when drugs are being swept towards shorelines...

Oddly there were not many packages delivered to the local police and everyone was walking around with a smile on their faces - including the law.

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JD

if they're dumb enough to drop their shit and not realize it and keep on walking.. then they lost it...i found it.. it's mine...

Sarah_Jayne

a lot of it is still in the shipping containers

borked

Well given that there are 1000 French oak barrels floating around and washed up, valued at ~$400/barrel and a handful of $20k BMW R1200's, then yeah I can't see why this waterlogged shit isn't being taken

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