Pathfinder

Without having all of the facts, I personally do not understand why Walker is guilty of any serious crime, if any crime.

He, for whatever his reasons, became absorbed with Islam.

He, for whatever his reasons were, became absorbed by the "Taliban" form of Islam. "Taliban" means students of Islam.

He, for whatever his reasons were, decided he wanted to join the Talibans fight against the Afghan "Northern Alliance", which at one point in time the US government had labled the "Northern Alliance" to be "drug dealers". The Taliban were trying to shut down the drug trade as it being against their religion.

Because of Taliban Law Walker could not become a member of the Taliban Army, but had to become a member of al Qaeda, as did all people of foreign nationality.

The al Qaeda was formed by Usama Bin Laden and others. After it found a home in Afghanistan, it was the boot camp for the training of Taliban soldiers, and all foreign nationals that wanted to fight for the Taliban against the "Northern Alliance".

The reason Taliban soldiers trained in boot camps built and run by the al Qaeda is because the Afghan Taliban government could not afford its own training vacilities, nor the expense of training soldiers. Bin Laden provided this service to the Taliban as a payback for allowing his organization to be allowed to stay in Afganistan.

Bottom line is this: Not all members of al Qaeda were trained to be terrorists, many, if not the majority were trained to be soldiers in the fight against the "Northern Alliance". Taliban soldiers were trained in al Qaeda military facilities, because they did not have their own training facilities and all foreign people that wanted to join the Taliban's fight against the "Northern Alliance", by law could not belong to the Taliban Army, thus had to be a member of the al Qaeda forces.

After 9/11 we attacked the Taliban and al Qaeda forces. Walker was caught up in history.

Some say that once he realized it was Americans that was attacking he should have somehow deserted the al Qaeda forces. He could have attempted this but probably it would have been suicidal.

Some say that he could have told Spann (CIA agent) that he was an American citizen. Yes he could have, but the consequences of telling Spann that he was an American citizen are not known and one can only specultate.

Some think that if he would have admitted to Spann he was an American citizen Spann would be alive today. I think that is a stretch.

The Government in its original 10 counts lay out many allegations, but allegations don't mean truth. I read the allegations and they look like a stretch to me.

Ashooooos comment: "Today marks an important victory in America's war on terrorism.", to me is ridiculous.

I personally think Walker is just a "dumb fuck" that was overcome by history.

SleazyDream

you should be thrown in the same jail cell to rot with him for the next 20 years for that post.

and probally will be if the NSA reads this thread and traces your IP.

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kmanrox

hey pathfinder your head is stuck so far up your ass, i cant even fist you

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Sly_RJ

Haha, and you were in the army for how many years? Sometimes I wonder where you come up with this shit.

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Mr.Fiction

Most people don't care about facts, just flags.

Pathfinder

I expected personal attacks.

If some of you can intelligenty condtradict what I have stated in the post please do.

Educate me.

jreaka

He joined Al Queda +


Al Queda is United States Enemy=

Traitor

TDF

truest statement i have heard all day...

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The Machine

why get into this political shit anyway.

TopTGP

I figure they should have let him stay over there. He had completely changed his life, and no-longer considered himself an American...

If you moved to Hong Kong (just an example), and you decided to "change cultures", and decided to live there for the rest of your natural life, wouldn't you be slightly pissed off when your government came over and said "You were born American, so, we are going to take you home against your will and throw you in prison for moving to another country, dressing in traditional Chinese clothing, and deciding to change your citizenship"...

Thats exactly what happened with John Walker... He decided to change his way of life, and now he is gonna rot in prison because of it. How fucked up is that?

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InsaneMidget

Can I see an article or resource on this information?

Pathfinder

The post is mine, not from an article, but from information that I recall from the news media, since Walkers capture.

If their is something specific that you want verification for, tell me and I will see what I can come up with in the way of verification.

DjSap

heh very good post...even though i do believe walker did wrong by conspiring to kill people (even though that really can't be proven) it is still wrong to convict "traitors". Walker should get therapy and not jail time.

FATPad

Therapy for what? Being a traitor isn't a disease, affliction, condition or mental illnes.

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[Labret]

Fucking keyboard patriots.

How many Americans have been labelled as subversive and or a traitor for having the audacity to think differently?

Walker did nothing wrong. Absolutely nothing. He chose his side. Albeit the losing side.

You fucking flag waving Bush loving little cocksmoker post 9-11 patriots need top pull your fucking heads out of your asses.

Fags.

[Labret]

If the government brought you up on charges just based solely on who they think is a traitor, millions of Americans would be in the gulag and this country would look like Russia in the 1930s.

hahmike

you forgot to call everyone '******s'.

Penrod

Homer voice: UMMMM! Kentucky Fried Walker

Pathfinder

Yes, it is true that he was a member of al Qaeda. He wanted to join the Taliban's fight against the "Northern Alliance". Under Taliban law a foreigner could not be a member of the Taliban Army. al Qeada provided forces to fight against the "Northern Alliance", thus Walker joined the al Qeada to be a part of the forces assigned to fight against the "Northern Alliance".

At the time the Taliban was not considered to be an enemy of the United States, in fact we were still providing them with aid up until 9/11 and if I recall correctly we sent them another aid package of some amount in October. I might add that the "Northern Alliance" was not considered by the USA to be a friend at the time. In fact we had labled them as being "drug dealers".

How much he knew about the al Qaeda, and it being deemed a terroist organization by the USA in 1999, before he joined the al Qaeda to be trained to fight against the "Northern Alliance", I do not know.

DjSap

yep, but the fact is even though there is no hard evidence against walker he has already been convicted guilty by the media. I wouldn't be suprised if he was killed by some overpatriotic person the 1st day in jail.

Krome

17 years minimum for:

Providing material, support and resources to al Qaeda
Using, carrying and possessing firearms and destructive devices during crimes of violence

More like being a Muslim in a Jewish 'run' country...USA

cold_ice

Look that mother fucker needs to be fried. Why? Because somebody has to. We dont know all the facts and we proably never will. I can tell most of you guys have never had run ins with the law. It matters not that he didnt fly the planes he is guilty by association. He should of had the common sense that those people were bad and if he didnt fry him for being stupid. We can all say how we feel but it matters nothing at all cuz Mr Walker get his ass sent to prison regardless of what he did or didnt do. Our gov. says his guilty so guilty he is.

And if that dude gets fried, so should some of our people in out gov. because im sure they all knew more than what they are saying.

steffie

I live in the USA, but I am German. I tried to join the Army a long long time ago. As Germans we can join the US Army. All alliance countries can. So I would basically be in the same position if the USA would start a war against Germany. I am German, however I feel like and pay my taxes like every other american.

Would I fight Germany in case of a war? Dunno!! My loyality is to America however my family is in Germany.. Screwed up like Walker. Good point Pathfinder..

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RW316

hes guilty because hes in al queda PERIOD

SykkBoy

hey, do you know how much money the United States gave the Taliban last year (pre9/11)? Shouldn't that make us all guilty?

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Gutterboy

Good stuff pathfinder!

As I said in my other post on the subject, I believe the reason the government tried to convict him in the press, effectively biasing all potential jurors, was that they knew they did not have the evidence to support a murder conspiracy charge against him. They accepted the plea bargain because they didn't want to risk losing the case in front of a Jury as a result of the lack of evidence.

This case is a worse travesty of Justice, but just as good a textbook example of primitive herd mentality, than Marjorie Knoller's 2nd degree murder conviction in the SF dog mauling case. Being personally unlikable, or an adherent of wacko fundamentalist beliefs, does not make you guilty of murder.

Funny how the hysterical flag waving patriots are always first in line to trample the judicial principles the USA stands for when they think it will serve their ends, isn't it?

SykkBoy

that's one of the scariest things I ever heard...I hope if you're ever faced with a jury of blue haired old ladies on a possible obscenity charge, they don't think the same thing...

while I think if someone is found guilty of treason, they should be booted out of the country, this whol "let someone swing because someone has to" thinking is scary...

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Mr.Fiction

Interesting point. Bush and Clinton both gave millions of dollars to the Taliban. I'm sure that money helped them more than Walker ever could have hoped to.

Scootermuze

How many politicians were in bed with Bin Laden not too awfully long ago? If this little guy is a traitor, then let's line all of em up to join him.

Pathfinder

If it would have gone to a jury, I seriously doubt that the government would have lost but a few, if any, of the charges against him.

The people that would have served, would have been for the most part, sheep who would have followed the flag waving spin presented via the government and the media.

I do agree that the Government knew their "facts" were weak and did not want to take even the slightest of risks that their charges (in most of the counts/if not all) would be found weightless by a jury, thus the plea bargin.

I will repeat that Ashooooos comment; "Today marks an important victory in America's war on terrorism.", to me is ridiculous.

I ask how many of you feel safer from future terrorist acts because the "big player" Walker is going to prison?

Gutterboy

I don't believe losing or getting aquittals is what prompted the Gov't agreement to the plea. Most potential jurors, as you say, were undoubtedly predjudiced long ago by Gov't demagoguery. My thoughts are that the defense would have used its disqualifications and jury consultants to get a couple of intelligent, fair, reasonably impartial people on the jury, resulting in a hung jury on the most serious charges, and a spectacular embarassment for the Administration.

Pathfinder

Since I stated basically the same thing. I agree. The government did not want to take the slightest risk of being embarassed.

UnseenWorld

"I provided services as a soldier to the Taliban last year. I carried a rifle and two grenades," he said, adding that he knew doing so was illegal.

Here is the full article:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/15/wa...ing/index.html

Here is the government's case against him:

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/ter...dh71502sof.pdf

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Pathfinder

I assume that you may be trying to make the point (maybe an incorrect assumption) that he served in the Taliban Army.

He did not. He was trained at an al Qaeda military facility as most, if not all Taliban soldiers were, but he could not be a member of the Taliban Army because Taliban Law will not allow a non Afghan to be a member.

Your first link verifies that he said ""I provided services as a soldier to the Taliban last year...."

He was trained as a soldier and served as a soldier with the al Qaeda assisting the Taliban Army in its fight against the "Northern Alliance".


Your second link verifies that he was fighting with non-Afghani fighters: He was shipped to the front with 150 other non-Afghani fighters in August of 2001. These foreign soldiers (members of al Qaeda) were assigned to assist the Taliban soldiers in their fight against the "Northern Alliance".

If you have a different point please explain.

Pathfinder

Whoops. I edited the wrong post.

ChrisH

Pathfinder,
If you payed attention, he PLEAD guilty today.

While I agree he wasn't responsible for Spanns death, he was part of the uprising at Mazar e Shariff that caused his death. He had ample time to admit his origin but didn't. Maybe he was waiting to escape? Perhaps he did want to kill the CIA that were inteorragating them.

I too agree that we should have left him where we found him, he'd be dead now, and we'd be a few million ahead of the game.

To the complete idiot that said you should be in jail for what you said, you are a complete moron. Have you ever heard of free speach/thought??

If you really want to be pissed you should think of Jose Padia, this guys an American Citizen, and he's being held without bail, and has not been charged with anything. That's a disgrace! if he did something, charge him and try him. You can't just hold someone without chargeing them.

As for this Administration, they keep changing there minds on how these people will be treated.

Walker gets a public trial, the other American (forget his name) is at GitMo. Padia is in a military base, the whole things a fucking mess! Bush needs to have Congress declare a declaration of war and lay out the guide lines. It's getting a little out of hand!

Walker will be a Muslim hero in prison! Sad but true!

brightstar

please, we all make choices. 20 is better than death.

UnseenWorld

I'm not sure there's a dime's worth of difference between "I was a Nazi soldier" and "I provided services as a soldier to the Nazis."

By aiding the Taliban fight their enemy to the North, he was freeing up Afghan Taliban soldiers, so in effect he provided a soldier to the Taliban even if he wasn't one himself.

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Pathfinder

I think you are trying to make a point that I am somehow missing.

I agree with this post as it is correct. He was a soldier in the al Qaeda helping the Taliban soldiers to fight the "Northern Alliance" whom at the time was no friend of ours.

mjrools23

UnseenWorld

You have thought it somehow important that he was TECHNICALLY not a soldier for the Taliban. My point, since seem unwilling to draw the obvious conclusion, is that you are making a distinction without a difference.

Maybe he wasn't a soldier fighting for the Taliban, but by fighting for them on another front, he essentially provided them a soldier (since they then could send one less soldier to the Northern front).

Sheeeesh!!!

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Pathfinder

Well...I did not think that it was an important point that he was not a member of the Taliban Army. He would have been an official member of the Taliban Army if Taliban law allowed it.

Most people make a big deal about him being a member of al Qaeda, because the general public are under the misconception that all members of al Qaeda were trained to be terrorists and they were not. Many of them were merely trained in military skills. Foreign nationals had to become members of the al Qaeda if they wanted to assist the Tabliban in their fight against the "Northern Alliance".

How many of the thousands that were trained by the al Qaeda were trained to be terrorists, I do not know.

mrbling

I agree with SleazyDream,

I think anybody in this thread who even AGREES that american taliban is not guilty should be THROWN into jail.

You guys are not allowed to think, you think, you go to jail.

I have alerted the NSA for SleazyDream already, all of you

labret,
pathfinder,
the german dude,
all of you have NO freedom of thinking. You are going to jail guys.


---

Next up at Court justice, obsenity at sleazydream.com , I think that site is quite obscene, whoever runs it should be thrown into jail IMMEDIDATELY.

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mrbling

btw, I believe a law has already passed for No USA flag on your house or car -> Jail time.


Anybody who does not have a USA flag on your car or houe window will go to jail.

Watch out guys!

I already got 10 flags up in my car window.. USA ! USA!

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jimmyf

I looked at and came very close to taking 2 Diff. jobs when I got out of the U.S. Army (Germany) in 1966. One as a Mercenary in a 5th world country did not think about it very long. But did think a long time about taking one gaurding pipe lines, in that country we get like 18% of out oil from.. I guess I would be considered a terroist now days if I'd taken one of them. Walker is a stupid fuck, he was getting very little food much less money for killing. I always like money for doing that kind of shit.

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jimmy3way

I agree with you completely except for one thing I'm EXTREMELY dubious about this whole al Qaeda thing.

If it's such a global organization...how come we've only managed to capture a few odd characters who, once in custody, suddenly get great job titles?

I think the IRA is a zillion times more organized than al Qaeda, but the only way Bush Jr. could sell this bullshit war on terrorism was to invent a solid enemy.

What does my opinion count? Bachelors Degree in International Relations: thesis on international terror groups. Worked with the IRA and Hamas for my thesis. Never heard of al Qaeda as more than an adjective until 9/11.

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Pathfinder

JimmyF: AIRBORNE!!!

I too considered being a Merc at one point in time (I won't say for who). I missed the action, but ultimately I decided I was to long in tooth. Good decision, they got their ass kicked.

Pathfinder

For those of you that posted pro and con type posts...

For those of you that lacked enough brain matter to develop a pro or con type post and posted a personal attack...

exitmoney

what all this have to do with our business. lets focus on business and not fight for something that is beyond us. Let the lawmakers and politicians and the law agencies worry about it , and lets all be cool