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11-01-2006, 11:13 AM
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#1 |
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Looking California
Industry Role:
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,476
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Canadian Income Trusts = Money down the toilet
bad day for anyone with money in income trusts.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...M&refer=canada Canada's Income Trusts, BCE, Plunge on New Taxes By Theophilos Argitis Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of Canadian income trusts plunged, wiping out more than C$20 billion ($18 billion) in market value, after the government said it plans to tax the high-yield securities for the first time. BCE Inc., which planned to convert to a trust, had its biggest drop in 23 years. Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said late yesterday he will also raise dividend tax rates for pension funds and foreign investors that own trusts. The changes would go into effect next year for new trusts, while existing securities will be exempt until 2011. ``We expected the market to be down and dirty on this -- and it is,'' said John Priestman, who runs about $5.3 billion in income trusts for Guardian Group of Funds in Toronto. Montreal-based BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, fell C$3.49, or 11 percent, to C$28.21, at 10:46 a.m. on the Toronto Stock Exchange. The shares earlier fell as much as 14 percent, the biggest drop since the company was created in 1983. Vancouver-based Telus Corp., another trust conversion candidate, fell C$9, or 14 percent, to C$55.93. The Canadian dollar had its biggest decline in two months as foreign investors unloaded their trusts. The S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust fell as much as 13 percent, the most since it was launched in 2002. Real Estate Investment Trusts, or REITs, were little changed as they were exempt from the tax changes. Sector Growth The measures threaten to shut down the fastest growing segment of the Toronto Stock Exchange, and may halt some of the C$70 billion in new trust conversions announced in recent weeks by firms such as BCE. The number of trusts in Canada has tripled to about 250, and their market value has soared 20-fold in six years to C$200 billion after firms were attracted to the tax breaks. The decisions in recent weeks by BCE and Telus, Canada's two biggest phone companies, to become trusts may have forced the government's hand. These two firms alone would have increased the market value of trusts by C$50 billion, boosting the government's tax losses from trusts to C$800 million a year. Trusts avoid most corporate taxes by paying out their cash flow to investors in monthly dividends. The tax measures are ``clearly disappointing,'' said BCE CEO Michael Sabia, on a conference call today. He said BCE is reviewing its conversion plans. Flaherty ``is essentially shutting the sector down,'' said David Wolf, chief strategist at Merrill Lynch & Co. in Toronto. ``This will resonate cruelly through the Canadian income trust market.' Surprise Move The tax measures caught many income trust executives and investors off guard, as they expected the minority government would be unwilling to make such an unpopular change until after the next election. ``Things changed a great deal this year and we're faced with a situation where Canada was moving to an income trust economy,'' Flaherty told reporters in Ottawa last night. ``For months there has been a growing trend toward corporate tax avoidance.'' BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, has gained 15 percent over the past two months as investors anticipated a switch to the structure. The company announced plans to convert its Bell Canada unit to a trust on Oct. 11. Flaherty said the structure isn't ``suitable'' for phone companies. ``The government had to address the problem sooner or later,'' said Denis Durand, a senior partner at Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd. in Montreal, which oversees C$58.5 billion, and is ``marginally'' invested in income trusts. ``There was a concern that too many unsuitable companies and industries would try to convert and that would affect the reinvestment process.'' More Coming Other companies that have announced plans to take advantage of the income trust structure include Dundee Wealth Management Inc., an asset-management firm, that plans to sell a minority stake in its Goodman & Co. mutual fund arm through an initial public offering of trust units. Dundee said it's reviewing the IPO plans. ``We knew there were more coming,'' Flaherty said, adding he's following moves by governments in Australia and the U.S. to curb growth in these securities. ``It's absolutely necessary to act on this issue in the interest of fairness.'' Income trusts fell because the increased taxes on payouts make them less attractive for investors. Until this year, the returns for the S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust Index, including dividends, have topped the benchmark S&P/TSX index each year since 1999. The announcement ``is going to deliver some pretty nasty re-evaluations of all the trusts,'' Marcel Coutu, chief executive of Canadian Oil Sands, said in a telephone interview. ``We'll certainly be thinking about how it impacts us and how the trust sector is going to evolve from here.'' Corporate Taxes The government plans to tax trusts in much the same way it taxes corporations. As a result, trusts will no longer be allowed to deduct for income taxes the payouts they make to shareholders. Income will then be taxed at a rate of 31.5 percent by 2011, the finance department said in a statement yesterday. The changes will effectively raise the tax rates for investors in tax-sheltered retirement accounts, pension funds, and for U.S. investors. The U.S. shareholders, who pay a 15 percent withholding tax on their trust dividends, will be paying a tax rate of 41.5 percent in 2011, the government said. Tax- exempt Canadian pensions will pay 31.5 percent, according to the finance department. Individual investors would continue to pay about 46 percent on trust payouts. Tax Rules The income trust issue has been a political minefield in Canada over the past two years. Trusts lost billions of dollars in market value last year when the previous Liberal government said it might change the tax rules, prompting Flaherty's Conservative Party to pledge in the campaign for elections in January that it would not tax trusts if it won power. Rather than tax trusts, the previous Liberal Party government cut dividend taxes to reduce companies' incentive to convert to trusts, a move Flaherty said didn't go far enough. The Conservative Party lacks a majority of seats in Parliament and needs support from opposition parties to pass laws. The New Democratic Party, which had called a moratorium on new income trusts earlier this month, may be ready to support the plan, Judy Wasylycia-Leis, head of financial affairs for the party, said in a telephone interview. To help soften the blow, Flaherty announced C$6.5 billion in additional tax cuts over six years, mostly for seniors, including a plan to allow income-splitting for pensioners as of next year. The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011, and increase the age credit amount by C$1,000 to C$5,066. |
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11-01-2006, 11:16 AM
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#2 |
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FUBAR the ORIGINATOR
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: FUBARLAND
Posts: 67,374
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Ouch .............
__________________
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11-01-2006, 11:18 AM
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#3 |
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HAL 9000
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 34,515
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"The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011"
how much that 0,005%? i dont understand |
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11-01-2006, 11:39 AM
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#4 |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 19,631
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sucks for them but its totally unfair that the average person should have to take on the burden of these huge corps who want to avoid taxes.
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you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day.. |
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11-01-2006, 11:52 AM
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#5 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The WATER BABY!
Posts: 7,040
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there's going to be a whole lot of drinking tonight at my bar...Bay St is going to be in an uproar...
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11-01-2006, 11:57 AM
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#6 |
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jellyfish
 Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71,528
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that must suck
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11-01-2006, 12:01 PM
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#7 |
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Vrume Mark
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 20,912
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Steal from the rich and give to the old!
What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!! DH |
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11-01-2006, 12:07 PM
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Confirmed User
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 3,271
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264 349 400 |
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11-01-2006, 12:09 PM
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#9 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Carpal Tunnel
Posts: 2,616
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FUCK ME. That sucks
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11-01-2006, 12:18 PM
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#10 |
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sex is good
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Carman, MB Canada
Posts: 24,939
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Conservatives suck
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11-01-2006, 12:42 PM
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#11 |
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Confirmed User
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: JustPorno
Posts: 2,384
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That sucks, but i'm not at all surprised by the move.
__________________
Just Porno with both classic and mobile porn versions. Gay Porn Our mega gay site tranny porn |
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11-01-2006, 12:43 PM
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#12 |
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Pounding Googlebot
Industry Role:
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 34,482
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I heard this on the radio on the drive back home last night and was about to cry. I thought that loophole would last a lot longer than that.
WG
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I play with Google. |
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11-01-2006, 01:04 PM
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#13 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canuckstikan
Posts: 22,766
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Quote:
DH for President 
__________________
email: [email protected] Best AI Affiliate Program We also do WL at $0.00 upfront costs  FantasyXXX.AI Teams: jean.francois.laverdiere TG: @jman1216 |
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11-01-2006, 01:22 PM
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#14 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T.O.
Posts: 2,849
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Normal investors will suffer because of the brokers who made BANK pushing these trust units.
Investment advisors have a conflict of interest - I used to be a stockbroker, and I can tell you 100% that our meetings involved discussing the 'hot' products that were the easiest sell - new issues were always the best because they were no-load to the client and paid the most (up to 5 or 6 points). With this huge incentive, the brokers downplay the risks associated and investors walk blindly into these investments. The more they perform, the more crowding in there is by self-directed investors who, for the most part, have no clue at all (or are fooled into thinking they have skill when supported by a bull market...) - and thus the more people suffer. This is a classic demonstration of a 'bubble' type market.
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I died. |
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11-01-2006, 03:44 PM
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#15 | |
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I'm here for SPORT
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phone # (401) 285-0696
Posts: 41,470
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This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog! Now read without the word dog. |
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11-01-2006, 03:46 PM
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#16 | |
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I help you SUCCEED
Industry Role:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas
Posts: 32,195
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11-01-2006, 03:51 PM
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#17 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 4,707
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will this mean the canadian dollar will far even further? (please oh please)
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ICQ: 298-523-037 |
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11-01-2006, 03:58 PM
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#18 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,642
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I wrote emails last night to the Prime Minister, Finance Minster and a bunch of MP's. I got hammered and am down tens of thousands today.
I loved income trusts and followed and traded them daily. I have big holdings in "closed end" funds of trusts that employ leverage - they use margin to invest more than 100% of their cash, so they got particularily brutalized today. I am sick to my stomach. These actions are one of a banana republic and are unbecoming of Canada. The gov't promised not to touch them giving me a green light to increase my investments in them and then they do this shit. |
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11-01-2006, 04:28 PM
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#19 |
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MFBA
Industry Role:
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PNW
Posts: 7,230
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oh canada, oh canada!
sorry to those who lost money. |
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11-01-2006, 04:30 PM
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#20 |
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MFBA
Industry Role:
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PNW
Posts: 7,230
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oh canada, oh canada!
sorry to those who lost money. |
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11-01-2006, 04:39 PM
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#21 | |
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Vrume Mark
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 20,912
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Quote:
Nothing drives me crazy like people who complain up and down about government and then they have the gall to tell me they didn't vote. Well you know what, if you don't have the time to vote you have no right to complain about the course of action the government is taking. DH |
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11-01-2006, 07:15 PM
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#22 |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,024
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I technically lost a few hundred today because of this
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11-01-2006, 07:19 PM
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#23 |
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I need a beer
 
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠
Posts: 133,943
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Fucking lying sack of shit Harper..they showed where he said twice to mark his words they wouldn't touch them..cocksmoker
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11-01-2006, 07:25 PM
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#24 | |
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HOMICIDAL TROLL KILLER
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Location: Sunnybrook Institution for the Criminally Insane
Posts: 20,419
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11-01-2006, 07:30 PM
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#25 |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: West Coast, Canada.
Posts: 10,217
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Time to buy some stock!!!!
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11-01-2006, 07:58 PM
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#26 |
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...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maryland ICQ:87038677
Posts: 11,542
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that fucking sucks
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... |
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11-01-2006, 08:59 PM
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#27 | |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: The Global Digerati Village
Posts: 6,265
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11-01-2006, 09:00 PM
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#28 |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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RevCan had been talking about for over a year now... the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots
__________________
New models booked and shot every week... MILFs, pornstars and teens. Girls for every niche and project. Looking for high-quality affordable exclusive content? Check me out at Easton Content for all the details. |
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11-01-2006, 09:05 PM
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#29 | |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,642
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Quote:
So even the most seasoned analysts, brokers, economists...that all were caught with their pants down today are all complete idiots but you and you alone were in the know, eh? There wasn't any pre-announcement sell-off at all, and the trust world's valuations recovered and then some from the Goodale debacle. You are way off with that comment. |
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11-01-2006, 09:07 PM
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#30 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
research the old articles and you'll see that RevCan hinted at this a long while back... i bailed my old clients out last year and they're sitting pretty right now
__________________
New models booked and shot every week... MILFs, pornstars and teens. Girls for every niche and project. Looking for high-quality affordable exclusive content? Check me out at Easton Content for all the details. |
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11-01-2006, 09:08 PM
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#31 |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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hershie: i recall that board you wanted me to post on and hype up your penny stocks
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11-01-2006, 09:10 PM
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#32 |
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I need a beer
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠
Posts: 133,943
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Yet Harper made promises they wouldn't be touched..should have figured just another false promise to gain votes..
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11-01-2006, 09:11 PM
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#33 | |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,642
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Quote:
Why don't you go here: http://www.stockhouse.ca/bullboards/proforum.asp?symbol=$TRSTS&table=PRO&all=0&top=1&t =0 to where I and many smarter CFA, brokers, institutional investors and many smarter people then you and I discuss income trusts all day long and repeat that comment and see how fast you get shot down for stupidity. BTW, nobody calls it RevCan anymore, it is the CRA. |
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11-01-2006, 09:14 PM
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#34 | |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,642
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11-01-2006, 09:16 PM
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#35 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
__________________
New models booked and shot every week... MILFs, pornstars and teens. Girls for every niche and project. Looking for high-quality affordable exclusive content? Check me out at Easton Content for all the details. |
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11-01-2006, 09:17 PM
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#36 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
i'm done here... take it easy player
__________________
New models booked and shot every week... MILFs, pornstars and teens. Girls for every niche and project. Looking for high-quality affordable exclusive content? Check me out at Easton Content for all the details. |
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11-01-2006, 09:18 PM
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#37 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 69
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wow, thats not right...
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11-01-2006, 09:20 PM
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#38 |
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BACON BACON BACON
Industry Role:
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet
Posts: 35,462
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well we need the tax money
 i wont be affected by this..everyone has to pay tax |
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11-01-2006, 09:23 PM
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Confirmed User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,642
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11-01-2006, 09:31 PM
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11-01-2006, 09:42 PM
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Confirmed User
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11-01-2006, 09:56 PM
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Confirmed User
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Location: Mexico
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11-01-2006, 10:03 PM
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#43 |
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<&(©¿©)&>
Industry Role:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 47,882
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ouch, that's gotta suck :-/
__________________
Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager  Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager |
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11-01-2006, 11:19 PM
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#44 | |
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Posts: 4,642
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11-01-2006, 11:20 PM
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#45 |
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The Hustler
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,993
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canadian government is before it's time by like 4 decades.. putting your money into any canadian institution is stupid
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11-02-2006, 05:30 AM
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#46 |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 14,423
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exchange rate should be nice now though.
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no sig |
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11-02-2006, 06:09 AM
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#47 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 19,631
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Quote:
__________________
you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day.. |
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11-02-2006, 08:42 AM
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#48 | |
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11-02-2006, 08:43 AM
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#49 | |
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Too lazy to set a custom title
Industry Role:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/Business notice how it says: "Ottawa's decision to tax income trust distributions revives the uncertainty and angst of a year ago when the federal government shifted its policy on the asset class" so yes, it was a known issue a year ago and that is what i was referring to
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11-02-2006, 08:52 AM
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#50 | |
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Confirmed User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: T.O.
Posts: 2,849
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Quote:
The government is not the bad guy here - the bad people are 1) The corporations who dodged taxes and passed the risks onto individuals 2) The investment delers who made hundreds of millions of dollars pushing these units and who are STILL STINKING RICH regardless of this legislation. The stock market is risky - always has been, always will be and anyone who is lulled into a sense of security by a bull market is simply an uninformed sucker.
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I died. |
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