GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum (https://gfy.com/index.php)
-   Fucking Around & Business Discussion (https://gfy.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26)
-   -   Canadian Income Trusts = Money down the toilet (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=672637)

ElvisManson 11-01-2006 11:13 AM

Canadian Income Trusts = Money down the toilet
 
bad day for anyone with money in income trusts.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...M&refer=canada


Canada's Income Trusts, BCE, Plunge on New Taxes

By Theophilos Argitis

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of Canadian income trusts plunged, wiping out more than C$20 billion ($18 billion) in market value, after the government said it plans to tax the high-yield securities for the first time. BCE Inc., which planned to convert to a trust, had its biggest drop in 23 years.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said late yesterday he will also raise dividend tax rates for pension funds and foreign investors that own trusts. The changes would go into effect next year for new trusts, while existing securities will be exempt until 2011.

``We expected the market to be down and dirty on this -- and it is,'' said John Priestman, who runs about $5.3 billion in income trusts for Guardian Group of Funds in Toronto.

Montreal-based BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, fell C$3.49, or 11 percent, to C$28.21, at 10:46 a.m. on the Toronto Stock Exchange. The shares earlier fell as much as 14 percent, the biggest drop since the company was created in 1983. Vancouver-based Telus Corp., another trust conversion candidate, fell C$9, or 14 percent, to C$55.93.

The Canadian dollar had its biggest decline in two months as foreign investors unloaded their trusts. The S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust fell as much as 13 percent, the most since it was launched in 2002. Real Estate Investment Trusts, or REITs, were little changed as they were exempt from the tax changes.

Sector Growth

The measures threaten to shut down the fastest growing segment of the Toronto Stock Exchange, and may halt some of the C$70 billion in new trust conversions announced in recent weeks by firms such as BCE. The number of trusts in Canada has tripled to about 250, and their market value has soared 20-fold in six years to C$200 billion after firms were attracted to the tax breaks.

The decisions in recent weeks by BCE and Telus, Canada's two biggest phone companies, to become trusts may have forced the government's hand. These two firms alone would have increased the market value of trusts by C$50 billion, boosting the government's tax losses from trusts to C$800 million a year. Trusts avoid most corporate taxes by paying out their cash flow to investors in monthly dividends.

The tax measures are ``clearly disappointing,'' said BCE CEO Michael Sabia, on a conference call today. He said BCE is reviewing its conversion plans.

Flaherty ``is essentially shutting the sector down,'' said David Wolf, chief strategist at Merrill Lynch & Co. in Toronto. ``This will resonate cruelly through the Canadian income trust market.'

Surprise Move

The tax measures caught many income trust executives and investors off guard, as they expected the minority government would be unwilling to make such an unpopular change until after the next election.

``Things changed a great deal this year and we're faced with a situation where Canada was moving to an income trust economy,'' Flaherty told reporters in Ottawa last night. ``For months there has been a growing trend toward corporate tax avoidance.''

BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, has gained 15 percent over the past two months as investors anticipated a switch to the structure. The company announced plans to convert its Bell Canada unit to a trust on Oct. 11. Flaherty said the structure isn't ``suitable'' for phone companies.

``The government had to address the problem sooner or later,'' said Denis Durand, a senior partner at Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd. in Montreal, which oversees C$58.5 billion, and is ``marginally'' invested in income trusts. ``There was a concern that too many unsuitable companies and industries would try to convert and that would affect the reinvestment process.''

More Coming

Other companies that have announced plans to take advantage of the income trust structure include Dundee Wealth Management Inc., an asset-management firm, that plans to sell a minority stake in its Goodman & Co. mutual fund arm through an initial public offering of trust units. Dundee said it's reviewing the IPO plans.

``We knew there were more coming,'' Flaherty said, adding he's following moves by governments in Australia and the U.S. to curb growth in these securities. ``It's absolutely necessary to act on this issue in the interest of fairness.''

Income trusts fell because the increased taxes on payouts make them less attractive for investors. Until this year, the returns for the S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust Index, including dividends, have topped the benchmark S&P/TSX index each year since 1999.

The announcement ``is going to deliver some pretty nasty re-evaluations of all the trusts,'' Marcel Coutu, chief executive of Canadian Oil Sands, said in a telephone interview. ``We'll certainly be thinking about how it impacts us and how the trust sector is going to evolve from here.''

Corporate Taxes

The government plans to tax trusts in much the same way it taxes corporations. As a result, trusts will no longer be allowed to deduct for income taxes the payouts they make to shareholders. Income will then be taxed at a rate of 31.5 percent by 2011, the finance department said in a statement yesterday.

The changes will effectively raise the tax rates for investors in tax-sheltered retirement accounts, pension funds, and for U.S. investors. The U.S. shareholders, who pay a 15 percent withholding tax on their trust dividends, will be paying a tax rate of 41.5 percent in 2011, the government said. Tax- exempt Canadian pensions will pay 31.5 percent, according to the finance department. Individual investors would continue to pay about 46 percent on trust payouts.

Tax Rules

The income trust issue has been a political minefield in Canada over the past two years. Trusts lost billions of dollars in market value last year when the previous Liberal government said it might change the tax rules, prompting Flaherty's Conservative Party to pledge in the campaign for elections in January that it would not tax trusts if it won power.

Rather than tax trusts, the previous Liberal Party government cut dividend taxes to reduce companies' incentive to convert to trusts, a move Flaherty said didn't go far enough.

The Conservative Party lacks a majority of seats in Parliament and needs support from opposition parties to pass laws. The New Democratic Party, which had called a moratorium on new income trusts earlier this month, may be ready to support the plan, Judy Wasylycia-Leis, head of financial affairs for the party, said in a telephone interview.

To help soften the blow, Flaherty announced C$6.5 billion in additional tax cuts over six years, mostly for seniors, including a plan to allow income-splitting for pensioners as of next year.

The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011, and increase the age credit amount by C$1,000 to C$5,066.

JFK 11-01-2006 11:16 AM

Ouch .............:disgust

Theo 11-01-2006 11:18 AM

"The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011"

how much that 0,005%? i dont understand

BlackCrayon 11-01-2006 11:39 AM

sucks for them but its totally unfair that the average person should have to take on the burden of these huge corps who want to avoid taxes.

Odie 11-01-2006 11:52 AM

there's going to be a whole lot of drinking tonight at my bar...Bay St is going to be in an uproar...:(

Manowar 11-01-2006 11:57 AM

that must suck

GTS Mark 11-01-2006 12:01 PM

Steal from the rich and give to the old!

What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

DH

the alchemist 11-01-2006 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkingHARDEST (Post 11210486)
Steal from the rich and give to the old!

What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

DH

Good one...

Brad Gosse 11-01-2006 12:09 PM

FUCK ME. That sucks

cool1 11-01-2006 12:18 PM

Conservatives suck

magicmike 11-01-2006 12:42 PM

That sucks, but i'm not at all surprised by the move.

WiredGuy 11-01-2006 12:43 PM

I heard this on the radio on the drive back home last night and was about to cry. I thought that loophole would last a lot longer than that.
WG

Jman 11-01-2006 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkingHARDEST (Post 11210486)
Steal from the rich and give to the old!

What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

DH

Mets en estie de calisse de TABARNAK.

DH for President :winkwink: :winkwink:

Dollarmansteve 11-01-2006 01:22 PM

Normal investors will suffer because of the brokers who made BANK pushing these trust units.

Investment advisors have a conflict of interest - I used to be a stockbroker, and I can tell you 100% that our meetings involved discussing the 'hot' products that were the easiest sell - new issues were always the best because they were no-load to the client and paid the most (up to 5 or 6 points). With this huge incentive, the brokers downplay the risks associated and investors walk blindly into these investments. The more they perform, the more crowding in there is by self-directed investors who, for the most part, have no clue at all (or are fooled into thinking they have skill when supported by a bull market...) - and thus the more people suffer. This is a classic demonstration of a 'bubble' type market.

SleazyDream 11-01-2006 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkingHARDEST (Post 11210486)
Steal from the rich and give to the old!

What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

DH

we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote

$5 submissions 11-01-2006 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleazyDream (Post 11212226)
we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote

Very good point. Corrollary point: expect more immigration due to aging population and lower birth rates. Interesting fact: as societies get richer, they have less and less children.

Myst 11-01-2006 03:51 PM

will this mean the canadian dollar will far even further? (please oh please)

hershie 11-01-2006 03:58 PM

I wrote emails last night to the Prime Minister, Finance Minster and a bunch of MP's. I got hammered and am down tens of thousands today.

I loved income trusts and followed and traded them daily. I have big holdings in "closed end" funds of trusts that employ leverage - they use margin to invest more than 100% of their cash, so they got particularily brutalized today. I am sick to my stomach.

These actions are one of a banana republic and are unbecoming of Canada. The gov't promised not to touch them giving me a green light to increase my investments in them and then they do this shit.

Why 11-01-2006 04:28 PM

oh canada, oh canada!

sorry to those who lost money.

Why 11-01-2006 04:30 PM

oh canada, oh canada!

sorry to those who lost money.

GTS Mark 11-01-2006 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleazyDream (Post 11212226)
we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote

LOL! Very good point!

Nothing drives me crazy like people who complain up and down about government and then they have the gall to tell me they didn't vote.

Well you know what, if you don't have the time to vote you have no right to complain about the course of action the government is taking.

DH

KrisKross 11-01-2006 07:15 PM

I technically lost a few hundred today because of this :(

Spunky 11-01-2006 07:19 PM

Fucking lying sack of shit Harper..they showed where he said twice to mark his words they wouldn't touch them..cocksmoker

marketsmart 11-01-2006 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkingHARDEST (Post 11210486)
Steal from the rich and give to the old!

What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

DH

Yeah! :thumbsup

Tempest 11-01-2006 07:30 PM

Time to buy some stock!!!!

Kimo 11-01-2006 07:58 PM

that fucking sucks

Quotealex 11-01-2006 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisKross (Post 11213861)
I technically lost a few hundred today because of this :(

Everyone lost money. The trust I have droped 25%:(

Easton 11-01-2006 09:00 PM

RevCan had been talking about for over a year now... the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots

hershie 11-01-2006 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214718)
RevCan had been talking about for over a year now... the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots

Wow are you clueless.

So even the most seasoned analysts, brokers, economists...that all were caught with their pants down today are all complete idiots but you and you alone were in the know, eh? There wasn't any pre-announcement sell-off at all, and the trust world's valuations recovered and then some from the Goodale debacle. You are way off with that comment.

Easton 11-01-2006 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11214749)
Wow are you clueless.

So even the most seasoned analysts, brokers, economists...that all were caught with their pants down today are all complete idiots but you and you alone were in the know, eh? There wasn't any pre-announcement sell-off at all, and the trust world's valuations recovered and then some from the Goodale debacle. You are way off with that comment.

you calling a CFA clueless? fuck you...

research the old articles and you'll see that RevCan hinted at this a long while back... i bailed my old clients out last year and they're sitting pretty right now

Easton 11-01-2006 09:08 PM

hershie: i recall that board you wanted me to post on and hype up your penny stocks

Spunky 11-01-2006 09:10 PM

Yet Harper made promises they wouldn't be touched..should have figured just another false promise to gain votes..

hershie 11-01-2006 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214764)
you calling a CFA clueless? fuck you...

research the old articles and you'll see that RevCan hinted at this a long while back... i bailed my old client out last year and they're sitting pretty right now

Indeed, I am calling you a clueless CFA and idiot too.

Why don't you go here: http://www.stockhouse.ca/bullboards/proforum.asp?symbol=$TRSTS&table=PRO&all=0&top=1&t =0 to where I and many smarter CFA, brokers, institutional investors and many smarter people then you and I discuss income trusts all day long and repeat that comment and see how fast you get shot down for stupidity. BTW, nobody calls it RevCan anymore, it is the CRA.

hershie 11-01-2006 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214770)
hershie: i recall that board you wanted me to post on and hype up your penny stocks

Thanks for keeping our private conversations that way. You are a real class act.

Easton 11-01-2006 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11214787)
Indeed, I am calling you a clueless CFA and idiot too.

Why don't you go here: http://www.stockhouse.ca/bullboards/proforum.asp?symbol=$TRSTS&table=PRO&all=0&top=1&t =0 to where I and many smarter CFA, brokers, institutional investors and many smarter people then you and I discuss income trusts all day long and repeat that comment and see how fast you get shot down for stupidity. BTW, nobody calls it RevCan anymore, it is the CRA.

go fuck yourself you piece of shit, i don't give a fuck about the income trust problems anymore as i live a healthy and wealthy life in the US

Easton 11-01-2006 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11214794)
Thanks for keeping our private conversations that way. You are a real class act.

sure thing, you were the one looking for a "pump and dump" routine

i'm done here... take it easy player

Ill.Lori 11-01-2006 09:18 PM

wow, thats not right...

Phoenix 11-01-2006 09:20 PM

well we need the tax money:)

i wont be affected by this..everyone has to pay tax

hershie 11-01-2006 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214806)
go fuck yourself you piece of shit, i don't give a fuck about the income trust problems anymore as i live a healthy and wealthy life in the US

Hundreds of thousands of Canadians including myself lost significant amounts of money today and for you to come here and say this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214718)
the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots

makes you look like the biggest piece of shit I could imagine. You are a real class act to say that, especially when you are so materially wrong about it being "out there" since last year.

hershie 11-01-2006 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easton (Post 11214810)
sure thing, you were the one looking for a "pump and dump" routine

i'm done here... take it easy player

As a CFA, I shouldn't have to clarify this, but you should realize that micro cap stocks don't get any research coverage or institutional following and I was merely trying to raise awareness of some stocks to retail investors through marketing initiatives such as making posts on message board threads involving their peer group. That is a far far cry from participating in a pump and dump scheme which I would never be part of before or now.

hershie 11-01-2006 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunky (Post 11214780)
Yet Harper made promises they wouldn't be touched..should have figured just another false promise to gain votes..

It wasn't even one of those blah blah blah promises buried on page 12 of a campaign policy book. He openly mocked the Liberals about how Goodale screwed it up and vowed repeatedly in front of the cameras that his gov't wouldn't dare screw up this mess the Liberals caused and would never tax income trusts EVER. He made it a central pillar of his campaign to woo investors, seniors...and he screwed us last night.

Dcat 11-01-2006 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 11210328)
sucks for them but its totally unfair that the average person should have to take on the burden of these huge corps who want to avoid taxes.

Exactly! Greedy Corps should not be permitted to shift all the tax burden onto the backs of average Canadians. I'm all for it.

woj 11-01-2006 10:03 PM

ouch, that's gotta suck :-/

hershie 11-01-2006 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj (Post 11215109)
ouch, that's gotta suck :-/

Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.

sickbeatz 11-01-2006 11:20 PM

canadian government is before it's time by like 4 decades.. putting your money into any canadian institution is stupid

Wiggles 11-02-2006 05:30 AM

exchange rate should be nice now though.

BlackCrayon 11-02-2006 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11215740)
Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.

yeah, seniors convinced by brokers who never had their best interests in mind. only their own commissions... maybe im in the minority but i would never loan money to invest in the market. thats just crazy. way too easy to get fucked and lose it.

hershie 11-02-2006 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 11218815)
yeah, seniors convinced by brokers who never had their best interests in mind. only their own commissions... maybe im in the minority but i would never loan money to invest in the market. thats just crazy. way too easy to get fucked and lose it.

The carnage continues today, and I think a lot of it is all the margin calls forced selling from all the tens of thousands of Canadians that took loans/margin to buy more trusts. Really sad day :(

Easton 11-02-2006 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11214857)
You are a real class act to say that, especially when you are so materially wrong about it being "out there" since last year.

read the second paragraph:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/Business

notice how it says: "Ottawa's decision to tax income trust distributions revives the uncertainty and angst of a year ago when the federal government shifted its policy on the asset class"

so yes, it was a known issue a year ago and that is what i was referring to

Dollarmansteve 11-02-2006 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hershie (Post 11215740)
Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.

Welcome to the real world - people are not unaccountable for their investment decisions and should be fully aware of the investment products that they own. If they are not aware - then they are irresponsible.

The government is not the bad guy here - the bad people are

1) The corporations who dodged taxes and passed the risks onto individuals
2) The investment delers who made hundreds of millions of dollars pushing these units and who are STILL STINKING RICH regardless of this legislation.

The stock market is risky - always has been, always will be and anyone who is lulled into a sense of security by a bull market is simply an uninformed sucker.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©2000-, AI Media Network Inc123