Originally Posted by ronaldo

If me putting a personal spin on it like I tried to above and trying to force you to see the OTHER victim didn't change your mind, I'm never going to convince you that your opinion is flawed. Just as you're never going to be able to convince me on THIS particular issue that MY position is flawed. It's simply a difference of opinion. Remember though, that I'm NOT talking about ALL abortions here, simply rape.

But I've got 20 minutes to kill...


Having an abortion WON'T heal her wounds. With that I agree. However, any healing period is going to be put off for 9 months and no offense, if my parents didn't support one of the most serious decisions I'll EVER make in my life, THAT would haunt me for a long time as well. Telling her to raise the child without recognizing her feelings in the matter is like a second rape to me.


Agree 100%. But I'm going to do what my DAUGHTER thinks is best. Being 16, I'll let her know BOTH sides of the issue and HELP her make the decision, not influence it because of my beliefs. If my daughter CHOSE to have the baby, I'd do everything I could to support her and help her with whatever she chose to do with the baby afterwards. But the person who I'm going to be concerned with the most, is my daughter. End of story.


See above. I'll make sure she gets both sides of the story, as any pro-choice person would do.

This is where I seriously have a problem with the church's views on things, again knowing that yours is not a religious view. The church TELLS you what's wrong and doesn't give you an option. The OTHER way is WRONG. Where as pro-choice people make SURE you see BOTH sides of the story. Who's the more rational? The church is all-loving and all-forgiving IF you follow THEIR path. (off topic but a VERY interesting read... http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/wes...-4235072c.html)


I'm sorry, but quite frankly your answer here sounds very preachy. Why you can't see the other victim or other side of the case, I don't know. I like to think that's one of my greatest assets. Seeing both sides of view, recognizing, acknowledging, and RESPECTING both sides of view. Then I'll give my opinion based on what I know, but ultimately the decision is someone else's. Just like you wouldn't want the law to be that your daughter MUST have an abortion BECAUSE she was raped and the potential IS there for that baby to grow up in a less than desirable environment, the same should hold true to the other side of the argument.

Focusing on the good on this particular issue would be reinforcing to my DAUGHTER that whatever choice she makes, I'll stand by and support her. Am I saying the baby may not be an innocent victim here? Unfortunately no, that may be the case. But this wasn't my daughters doing, and the absolute last thing I'd ever do to her, or anyone for that matter, is TELL them that what they're doing is wrong. No matter the decision she makes, having her parent tell them what they did was wrong is going to stay with them for the rest of their lives (which is why I say it's like a second rape).

Originally Posted by CDSmith

It is the parent's decision, period.

If you still doubt me, the next time you are in a room with a woman who has just found out she is 3 weeks pregnant, bend down close to her abdomen and ask the baby what it's decsion is.

If you get an answer let me know.


Yes it's retarded, but so was your comment. The mother (and father if present) decide what is right for them and their prospective baby, not you.


Key part of that sentence: "not you"

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Ok one thing has stuck in my mind. "cycle of life"

Tossing out all moral and ethical reasoning behind an abortion. Just going to point out a simple scientific issue.

We as a race have unnaturally extended the natural life cycle of the human race. We have added numerous decades to ones lifespan. We have also made it so that the once barren woman can now have children and we have also extended the age so that older women can also still unnaturally bare children. We have in effect interrupted the life cycle of many things that typically take our lives due to its own effects on the human body where it resides.

That alone more than makes up for the breaking of the life cycle of others if they choose.

So I ask this question.

Are you pro virus and parasites or anti virus and parasites?
We do after all kill them by the millions and abort them at every chance and they too are part of the cycle of life.

Originally Posted by Tempest

Pro choice... Until our so called civilized society stops killing each other and people in other countries for money.. hate.. love.. or whatever, that same society has no right dictating to anyone whether abortion is killing or not.

Originally Posted by Tempest

Until our so called civilized society stops killing each other

Originally Posted by Corona

Pro-Choice but since I can't give birth my opinion does't mean shit.

Originally Posted by Mike33

You cannot have an opinion on certain matters just because you're not female and cannot yourself bear children? I think that one can have a position on just about anything regardless.

Originally Posted by Mike33

Isn't it our duty to protect those who cannot protect themselves (the children?)

Originally Posted by Corona

You can have an opinion on anything you want but since you have no dog in the fight it doesn't mean shit.

Oh, please. You can't really be that naive. You mean protection like how we protected the people in Dufar, the civilians in Iraq or even New Orleans for that matter?

Prove to me you pro-lifers give a shit about the people already on this earth then we can revisit this topic. I will not be holding my breath.

Originally Posted by bopha

You framed that poll question like you're a raging pro lifer.

I am PRO CHOICE. I don't know anyone who is PRO ABORTION. If you against abortion then don't have one. I wouldn't have one, but I am not going to tell someone else what to do with their body based on my beliefs - and certainly not because of my religious convictions. Which seems to be the reasons anyone brings this subject to the forefront...

Originally Posted by XxXotic

I guess you could say I'm pro-choice. I personally do not agree with abortion and would never want anyone I impregnated to have one but I'm not the person carrying the child. It's not my decision what someone else decides to do with THEIR body. Our rights as individuals are slipping away one by one, who am I to limit someones right to choose?

Originally Posted by MandyBlake

i'm pro-choice.
and don't assume that pro-choice is pro-abortion...its not.

Originally Posted by Mike33

To me abortion could be seen as an example of erosion of rights. It's not just the mother's body in question - it's the unborn child's body too. What gives the mother the right to choose what happens to the body of the unborn child - choosing to end its life.

Originally Posted by Cristie

You are not crazy at all.
I am against abortions now, but this is after 2 that i made. Iknow i made a sin.

Originally Posted by Mike33

That's the point - we cannot get the baby's decision. Does that mean that by default we destroy the baby because it cannot talk yet?

Originally Posted by Mike33

Your entire position rests on saying that you'll agree to anything your 16 year old daughter wants. You are the parent and you perhaps should know what is best for your 16 year old daughter - she's not even old enough to drink beer legally.

I'm not sure why you think that I'm not seeing both victims. I am and I sympathize. I'm simply saying that as much as I think it's terrible, why would that justify killing an innocent baby? Also, the healing process being 'delayed' 9 months out of a person's life doesn't seem huge - and what makes you think the process of healing cannot occur in those 9 months?

Originally Posted by Libertine

Consciousness, thought and intelligence are the defining qualities of human life. An embryo/fetus has none of these to begin with, and only attains them to a certain extent in the later parts of a pregnancy.

The embryo/fetus has no rights because it isn't a human being yet. It is a parasite with the potential to become a human being. More potential than a single sperm or egg cell, admittedly, but mere potential nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Libertine

Over 10% of pregnancies end in miscarriages. These occur especially often in the first six weeks of pregnancies. Now, if one couldn't make a distinction in "humanity" between a six week old embryo and a newborn baby, that would be pretty gruesome indeed. But somehow, people - and that most likely includes you - don't react in quite the same way to these miscarriages as they do to infant death. Sure, an early miscarriage is sad, or even tragic, but not nearly as bad as the death of an infant. Moreover, the reason that it is sad or tragic generally is its effect on the would-be parents, who most often were looking forward to having and raising a child, not because a human being died.

Your "cycle of life" postulation is nice and fluffy and spiritual, but it's a completely random and irrational theory, lacking any real arguments.

Originally Posted by Libertine

No, we destroy it because it cannot think yet. We cannot get its decision because it has no decision. For much of the pregnancy, it doesn't have a brain developed far enough to support anything that could be considered full-fledged consciousness yet.

Originally Posted by Mike33

How does killing another innocent life make the world better?

Originally Posted by ronaldo

The fact that the example I use is my 16 year old daughter is quite frankly irrelevant in a conversation with you because you want to impose your morals on everyone and in THIS case you're saying I should know better than a 16 year old.

Originally Posted by ronaldo

If she's 24 would that matter? It wouldn't to either of us for entirely different reasons. I'd still say I'd support HER decision. You'd still say she's wrong if she doesn't see things from your point of view.

Originally Posted by ronaldo

If you don't think that you NOT supporting ANY decision your daughter makes in which she's so fragile emotionally isn't going to drive a permanent wedge between you both, regardless of whether it's contrary to YOUR belief system, you're sorely mistaken. After she's made one of the worst decisions of her life, the last thing she needs is her parents, the one's that are supposed to love her unconditionally, telling her what she did was wrong. She'll already feel guilty enough.

Originally Posted by CDSmith

How does forcing scared girls and women to have children they don't want to have making the world better?

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Keep in mind you have thus far avoided all arguments I and others have presented on "fallout" issues such as many of these women and girls (and their boyfriends/husbands if present) seeking out illegal (and usually unsafe) procedures. The coathanger myth actually isn't a myth at all. How many women do you want laying bleeding on a table in some back room somewhere, some left barren for life, others outright dying themselves, all because people like you who think it's their god-given-right to exert their will and beliefs over everyone else in society.

I've said it now twice in this thread Mike, I'll say it a third time.... I don't like the concept of abortion any more than you or the next person, but when safe and professional procedures are not provided women WILL find a way to abort babies. Yes, many others will have babies they otherwise would not have, which WILL cause an influx of unwanteds into an already overclogged system.

Originally Posted by CDSmith

And before you go off on me Mike, know this -- if any girlfriend of mine, or wife, or any daughter I might have, gets in this situation I would not want to go the route of an abortion either (barring extreme circumstances already discussed). It's not something I would support during any sort of pre-discussion. I can be happy with having a say over my life and that of my family, but I would not want someone else telling me or mine what we MUST or MUST NOT do. I'm fine with someone else making a different decision for THEIR life and their situation. I don't feel the extreme need to control their decision and force them to do what I want.

Originally Posted by CDSmith

My only remaining question Mike is... Why can't you be happy with your decision and your beliefs for YOU and yours, and leave the decisions of others up to them? I don't get you, it's like some people go into "control freak mode" on certain issues and feel the need to force everyone around them to fall in line.

Again, thankfully the law doesn't cowtow to your ilk, the law agrees with those who support each individual's right to choose for themselves, as it should be. Now I'm done with this, because as usual the extreme anti-abortionist wants to continue arguing ad nauseum until others (everyone) agrees with him, which of course will never happen, not in this or any lifetime.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Mike33

To me abortion could be seen as an example of erosion of rights. It's not just the mother's body in question - it's the unborn child's body too. What gives the mother the right to choose what happens to the body of the unborn child - choosing to end its life.

Originally Posted by Mike33

Here's an earlier quote of mine:

"I'm not trying to impose my beliefs."

Originally Posted by Mike33

I disagree. We can still love each other and get along even if we disagree on this issue.

Originally Posted by Fabien

Huh ? Ok so we'll dump all the unwanted kids in your backyard how's that ? (so pathetic.....)

Originally Posted by Fabien

It's easy to make baby, damn easy, now raising it, that's another story. If it's unwanted for whatever reasons well what can YOU do about it ? Next time you tell someone to keep it when it's unwanted, fill the adoption papers ! Until you do it, what you're saying if full of shit.
Period

Originally Posted by ronaldo

Sorry man. Usually when someone says "I'm not trying to impose my beliefs", that's exactly what they're doing. They just don't see it.

Here's an earlier quote of mine for you...

"Just like you wouldn't want the law to be that your daughter MUST have an abortion BECAUSE she was raped and the potential IS there for that baby to grow up in a less than desirable environment, the same should hold true to the other side of the argument."

THAT is not imposing someone's will.

Originally Posted by ronaldo

When I was 15ish, my mother told me I was an accident. Hey, I was 15 so I probably told her to fuck off. But, that always stuck with me. A few years later I asked her if she remembered it and she was livid that I would even suggest that she'd said that.

You're right in that you'll still be father and daughter till you die, and yes your relationship WILL go on. If you think she'll ever get over it, you ARE sorely mistaken. She may forgive you, but she'll NEVER get over it. The fact that she'll already be struggling with her decision will only magnify it.

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Fuck it I will respond.
Humanity oh such a wonderful word. We are some of the most ruthless cut throat creatures on the planet. If your ideals of being humane are making a mother and or father suffer with a child of rape that will indeed be treated differently and if not still is genetically part of the rapist, it very well could carry those very traits.
Humane is preventing the suffering of something before it has to endure the pain. A child that will be born and deceased in a year or two is just prolonging life for ego. It will never procreate.
Humane is not allowing the daughter of an incestuous father to have to raise her own brother and uncle. Who very well could also be genetically fucked for life and suffer.
Humane is not allowing another unwanted child to be brought up with someone who does not want them. Possibly put through the system and if lucky gets adopted but since odds are it will be from a minority it will not be and let loose into foster care where it will be abused, molested, tortured and get extreme detachment syndrome.
Humane is knowing that the population as a whole needs controls. We are parasitic in nature and over use and exploit every possible resource we can. We are entirely over populated and if we do not correct it ourselves nature will.
Humane is respecting the choices of others regardless of your personal opinions.

Originally Posted by Mike33

I've had been pro-abortion all my life until recently. The only exception I see is perhaps if the mother's life would be at great risk almost certainly resulting in her death if she went thru with child birth. But aside from that, I almost can't fathom why abortion (death of an innocent child) would ever be a valid alternative to life for it.

All of the reasons I used to think were valid seem absurd when faced with the idea that a child actually ends up getting killed in order to have an abortion.

Am I crazy?

Originally Posted by ronaldo

Off topic, but ex-smokers are the worst.

Originally Posted by Mike33

I appreciate your post. Could you shed some light on why now you're opposed to it? Why were the reasons that you decided to have two abortions (were they consecutive abortions or twins)?

Originally Posted by Mr.Sexbankroll

I was completely pro-choice up until actually having to think about the possiblity of deciding. In the end i didn't have too, but after that shining example of choice i decided that personally i would always pick life. I voted choice though because there is always circumstances that cannot be foreseen, such as rape, that a choice needs to be available

R